Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Foxfyre]

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

 

[GaryDog]

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

 

[Foxfyre]

Rule #2 for this thread:
2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

 

[Andylusion]

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

 

[Foxfyre]

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

I can't find any fault with this post. Now if the racists among us, both black and white, would get that memo, we might start seeing things improve a good deal.

 

[GaryDog]

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

 

[GaryDog]

It seems as though this "white privilege" ...or even "privilege" without regard to race is confusing people here. I found a cartoon that I think helps. Indulge it, reading from top to bottom. And while reading it, keep in mind that people of color are disproportionately more likely to begin life like Paula, not Richard:

 

[Foxfyre]

It seems as though this "white privilege" ...or even "privilege" without regard to race is confusing people here. I found a cartoon that I think helps. Indulge it, reading from top to bottom. And while reading it, keep in mind that people of color are disproportionately more likely to begin life like Paula, not Richard:

Yes a child from a poor family does not have the advantages that the rich kid has. But countless poor people did not allow the circumstances they were born into dictate the choices they made. So you have many cases of poor people who lived the 'from rags to riches' story and many rich kids who frittered away much of their life because everything was given to them.

McWhorter, who authored the article in the OP, did have some economic advantages that people like Starr Parker, Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and other black people who achieved great success did not. But all have arrived at much of the same conclusion as is expressed in McWhorter's first significant book reviewed here:

Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America​

​

is a 2000 book by American linguist and political commentator John McWhorter in which he argues that not external racial prejudice and discrimination, but elements of black culture are more responsible for the social problems faced by black Americans several decades after the Civil Rights Movement. Specifically, McWhorter points to anti-intellectualism, separatism, and a self-perpetuated identity of victimhood as factors limiting black Americans as a group.​

Losing the Race - Wikipedia

I myself would have been the young woman serving the hors d'oeuvres to the rich folks--I did a lot of grunt jobs to get myself through high school and college because my parents could not or would not help in any way. It didn't hurt me in the least or any of my friends who were in the same boat. And we all made it just fine because it never occurred to us that we were disadvantaged or handicapped in any way. But we were fortunate to have lived in a culture where people were not declared victims due to the circumstances of their birth but it was ingrained into us that we would be judged by the choices we made and the world was ours for the taking.

 

[Foxfyre]

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Not a red herring at all. It is absolutely on point to address both the OP and the arguments that have been made thus far in this thread. It has nothing to do with attire for a rock concert and everything to do with setting aside one's prejudices and dressing for success.

 

[GaryDog]

It seems as though this "white privilege" ...or even "privilege" without regard to race is confusing people here. I found a cartoon that I think helps. Indulge it, reading from top to bottom. And while reading it, keep in mind that people of color are disproportionately more likely to begin life like Paula, not Richard:

Yes a child from a poor family does not have the advantages that the rich kid has. But countless poor people did not allow the circumstances they were born into dictate the choices they made. So you have many cases of poor people who lived the 'from rags to riches' story and many rich kids who frittered away much of their life because everything was given to them.

McWhorter, who authored the article in the OP, did have some economic advantages that people like Starr Parker, Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and other black people who achieved great success did not. But all have arrived at much of the same conclusion as is expressed in McWhorter's first significant book reviewed here:

Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America

is a 2000 book by American linguist and political commentator John McWhorter in which he argues that not external racial prejudice and discrimination, but elements of black culture are more responsible for the social problems faced by black Americans several decades after the Civil Rights Movement. Specifically, McWhorter points to anti-intellectualism, separatism, and a self-perpetuated identity of victimhood as factors limiting black Americans as a group.​

Losing the Race - Wikipedia

I myself would have been the young woman serving the hors d'oeuvres to the rich folks--I did a lot of grunt jobs to get myself through high school and college because my parents could not or would not help in any way. It didn't hurt me in the least or any of my friends who were in the same boat. And we all made it just fine because it never occurred to us that we were disadvantaged or handicapped in any way. But we were fortunate to have lived in a culture where people were not declared victims due to the circumstances of their birth but it was ingrained into us that we would be judged by the choices we made and the world was ours for the taking.

Your response containing anecdotes is not very convincing. Anecdotal info can be easily rebutted with counterveiling anecdotal info. For example, George W Bush was an average student, with average intelligence, born to a rich family of American political "royalty." He failed at oil ventures. He had no distinguishing military career. He was able to become president regardless of his mediocre school and business performance.

Millions of people of color ALSO performed with middling grades and, for example, did not get accepted as a legacy to Yale or Harvard the way GW did..

 

[GaryDog]

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Not a red herring at all. It is absolutely on point to address both the OP and the arguments that have been made thus far in this thread. It has nothing to do with attire for a rock concert and everything to do with setting aside one's prejudices and dressing for success.

It absolutely is a red herring. It's also a strawman. No one's arguing black people should be able to dress as gangbangers and get a job at Goldman Sach's. What we're talking about is deep, early disadvantages that enormously impact a person of color's ability to get ahead, starting with prenatal care, and going all the way up to which school district a child is stuck with. You're jumping ahead to job interviews, and making the obvious (and unneeded) argument that dressing for the job you're seeking is important. Okay? Great.

What's that got to do with black children being 10x more likely to be born into poverty, single parenthood, or a neighborhood with underperforming schools? And what's that got to do with the domino affect of centuries of institutional discrimination that created hurdles affecting that child's ancestors from situating themselves for success so their offspring could be successful?


Not ONE of your American ancestors were ever in bondage, or restricted from moving to desirable neighborhoods (with good schools, low crime, etc.) on the basis of their skin color.

For nearly EVERY black person in America, that was the case. You don't think that has an impact?

 

[Foxfyre]

It seems as though this "white privilege" ...or even "privilege" without regard to race is confusing people here. I found a cartoon that I think helps. Indulge it, reading from top to bottom. And while reading it, keep in mind that people of color are disproportionately more likely to begin life like Paula, not Richard:

Yes a child from a poor family does not have the advantages that the rich kid has. But countless poor people did not allow the circumstances they were born into dictate the choices they made. So you have many cases of poor people who lived the 'from rags to riches' story and many rich kids who frittered away much of their life because everything was given to them.

McWhorter, who authored the article in the OP, did have some economic advantages that people like Starr Parker, Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and other black people who achieved great success did not. But all have arrived at much of the same conclusion as is expressed in McWhorter's first significant book reviewed here:

Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America

is a 2000 book by American linguist and political commentator John McWhorter in which he argues that not external racial prejudice and discrimination, but elements of black culture are more responsible for the social problems faced by black Americans several decades after the Civil Rights Movement. Specifically, McWhorter points to anti-intellectualism, separatism, and a self-perpetuated identity of victimhood as factors limiting black Americans as a group.​

Losing the Race - Wikipedia

I myself would have been the young woman serving the hors d'oeuvres to the rich folks--I did a lot of grunt jobs to get myself through high school and college because my parents could not or would not help in any way. It didn't hurt me in the least or any of my friends who were in the same boat. And we all made it just fine because it never occurred to us that we were disadvantaged or handicapped in any way. But we were fortunate to have lived in a culture where people were not declared victims due to the circumstances of their birth but it was ingrained into us that we would be judged by the choices we made and the world was ours for the taking.

Your response containing anecdotes is not very convincing. Anecdotal info can be easily rebutted with counterveiling anecdotal info. For example, George W Bush was an average student, with average intelligence, born to a rich family of American political "royalty." He failed at oil ventures. He had no distinguishing military career. He was able to become president regardless of his mediocre school and business performance.

Millions of people of color ALSO performed with middling grades and, for example, did not get accepted as a legacy to Yale or Harvard the way GW did..

Millions? FYI children of alumni do usually receive some preferential treatment at ALL universities, not just Yale and Harvard. The color of their skin is not an issue in that. It is just that the mediocre student won't get the scholarships and grants awarded to top notch students. I'm pretty sure the Bush family had to pay for all of George's education.

By the way, from Wiki:

. . .McWhorter characterizes himself as "a cranky liberal Democrat". In support of this description, he states that while he "disagree sustainedly with many of the tenets of the Civil Rights orthodoxy," he also "supports Barack Obama, reviles the War on Drugs, supports gay marriage, never voted for George Bush and writes of Black English as coherent speech". . .​

John McWhorter - Wikipedia

It isn't like he is coming from some right wing think tank.

But re education:
McWhorter - NY College, Rutgers, Stanford

Starr Parker - Woodbury University (she came from a welfare family)

Shelby Steele PhD - born during segregation, son of a truck driver - Coe College, Southern Illinois Univ, Univ of Utah.

Thomas Sowell PhD - born during segregation to a single mother who was a housemaid - Howard University, Columbia University, University of Chicago. Radical marxist in his youth, he realized that was getting him nowhere and he chose to be successful.

Walter Williams PhD - born during segregation to a single mother in the projects - poor student for a long time until he decided to clean up his act.

Friends who knew Mr. Williams long before I did have told me that he, by manner and dress, was viewed as a black radical during his earlier student days. He also freely confesses to having been a troublemaker when he was in the Army and elsewhere. But unlike others less wise, Mr. Williams grew to understand that he could do far more for both his black brothers and sisters and all other Americans by teaching them how free markets don’t discriminate on the basis of race, religion or national origin, and hence lead to the greatest opportunity and prosperity for all.​

Walter E. Williams - Wikipedia

I'm using Wiki as the source here because it is just easier than digging it out of their websites.

The lesson to be learned is that we do not have to allow our culture to dictate our choices to succeed or not succeed. There is indeed opportunity for all despite what circumstances somebody is born into.

 

[GaryDog]

It seems as though this "white privilege" ...or even "privilege" without regard to race is confusing people here. I found a cartoon that I think helps. Indulge it, reading from top to bottom. And while reading it, keep in mind that people of color are disproportionately more likely to begin life like Paula, not Richard:

Yes a child from a poor family does not have the advantages that the rich kid has. But countless poor people did not allow the circumstances they were born into dictate the choices they made. So you have many cases of poor people who lived the 'from rags to riches' story and many rich kids who frittered away much of their life because everything was given to them.

McWhorter, who authored the article in the OP, did have some economic advantages that people like Starr Parker, Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and other black people who achieved great success did not. But all have arrived at much of the same conclusion as is expressed in McWhorter's first significant book reviewed here:

Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America

is a 2000 book by American linguist and political commentator John McWhorter in which he argues that not external racial prejudice and discrimination, but elements of black culture are more responsible for the social problems faced by black Americans several decades after the Civil Rights Movement. Specifically, McWhorter points to anti-intellectualism, separatism, and a self-perpetuated identity of victimhood as factors limiting black Americans as a group.​

Losing the Race - Wikipedia

I myself would have been the young woman serving the hors d'oeuvres to the rich folks--I did a lot of grunt jobs to get myself through high school and college because my parents could not or would not help in any way. It didn't hurt me in the least or any of my friends who were in the same boat. And we all made it just fine because it never occurred to us that we were disadvantaged or handicapped in any way. But we were fortunate to have lived in a culture where people were not declared victims due to the circumstances of their birth but it was ingrained into us that we would be judged by the choices we made and the world was ours for the taking.

Your response containing anecdotes is not very convincing. Anecdotal info can be easily rebutted with counterveiling anecdotal info. For example, George W Bush was an average student, with average intelligence, born to a rich family of American political "royalty." He failed at oil ventures. He had no distinguishing military career. He was able to become president regardless of his mediocre school and business performance.

Millions of people of color ALSO performed with middling grades and, for example, did not get accepted as a legacy to Yale or Harvard the way GW did..

Millions? FYI children of alumni do usually receive some preferential treatment at ALL universities, not just Yale and Harvard. The color of their skin is not an issue in that. It is just that the mediocre student won't get the scholarships and grants awarded to top notch students. I'm pretty sure the Bush family had to pay for all of George's education.

By the way, from Wiki:

. . .McWhorter characterizes himself as "a cranky liberal Democrat". In support of this description, he states that while he "disagree sustainedly with many of the tenets of the Civil Rights orthodoxy," he also "supports Barack Obama, reviles the War on Drugs, supports gay marriage, never voted for George Bush and writes of Black English as coherent speech". . .​

John McWhorter - Wikipedia

It isn't like he is coming from some right wing think tank.

But re education:
McWhorter - NY College, Rutgers, Stanford

Starr Parker - Woodbury University (she came from a welfare family)

Shelby Steele PhD - born during segregation, son of a truck driver - Coe College, Southern Illinois Univ, Univ of Utah.

Thomas Sowell PhD - born during segregation to a single mother who was a housemaid - Howard University, Columbia University, University of Chicago. Radical marxist in his youth, he realized that was getting him nowhere and he chose to be successful.

Walter Williams PhD - born during segregation to a single mother in the projects - poor student for a long time until he decided to clean up his act.

Friends who knew Mr. Williams long before I did have told me that he, by manner and dress, was viewed as a black radical during his earlier student days. He also freely confesses to having been a troublemaker when he was in the Army and elsewhere. But unlike others less wise, Mr. Williams grew to understand that he could do far more for both his black brothers and sisters and all other Americans by teaching them how free markets don’t discriminate on the basis of race, religion or national origin, and hence lead to the greatest opportunity and prosperity for all.​

Walter E. Williams - Wikipedia

I'm using Wiki as the source here because it is just easier than digging it out of their websites.

The lesson to be learned is that we do not have to allow our culture to dictate our choices to succeed or not succeed. There is indeed opportunity for all despite what circumstances somebody is born into.

Again, you're citing exceptions that prove the rule. Meanwhile, statistics en masse reflect that blacks are FAR less likely to graduate high school, much less attend college:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...ap-in-high-school-graduation-rates-is-closing

Although the nation's overall graduation rate reached an all-time high of 81 percent in the 2012-13 school year, white students still graduate at a much higher rate than most other subgroups, at 86.6 percent.

The good news is that the gap is closing. But what that tells us is Affirmative Action has helped, and needs to continue to help.



Unless ....it is your argument here that blacks are genetically/biologically predisposed to struggle in school, and you're ruling out environmental factors. In which case, your argument is blatantly racist and ignorant.

 

[yiostheoy]

NOTE: This thread is in the Structured Debate Forum.

John H. McWhorter PhD offers an interesting perspective on race in a recent essay. The inspiration for his thoughts were apparently triggered by students being required to attend "White Privilege 101" classes. His response to that is "Why, and for whose benefit?"

The concept he expresses raises the question of who is benefited when the conversation focuses on identification with race rather the means by which racism is eliminated or diminished.

Excerpted from the essay--pay special attention to the third paragraph cited here:

. . .If you’ve been white lately, you have likely been confronted with the idea that to be a good person, you must cultivate a guilt complex over the privileged status your race enjoys.

It isn’t that you are doing, or even quite thinking, anything racist. Rather, your existential state of Living While White constitutes a form of racism in itself. Your understanding will serve as a tool … for something. But be careful about asking just what that something is, because that will mean you “just don’t get it.”

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .​

And later in the essay he comments:

. . . the idea is not to teach white people that White Privilege means that black people are the only group of people in human history who cannot deal with obstacles and challenges. If the idea is that black people cannot solve their problems short of white people developing an exquisite sensitivity to how privileged they are, then we in the black community are being designated as disabled poster children. . . .​

And he further notes that these days, a white person accused of being racist is somewhere on a par with being designated as a pedophile.

The whole essay is here: The Privilege of Checking White Privilege - The Daily Beast

THE RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Stay on topic please. The topic is stated in the question to be answered below.

2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

3. References, reasonable excerpts of, and links to other stated opinions are allowed but will not be required for this discussion. If used, put the basic concept of the linked material into your own words also and explain how it relates to the concept of 'white privilege'.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS DISCUSSION:

Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism as McWhorter describes it help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

I am so tired of seeing this drivel pop up that I am going to add you to my ignore list so that it goes away.

Good luck with all your future drivel.

 

[yiostheoy]

Now what was the original question again ???

Something about white peoples and black peoples not getting along again ???

Maybe something on BLM ???

I think if Darren Wilson had not pumped Michael Brown full of lead that these riots would not have started up again.

One of two shots should have been enough.

Wilson lost it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think you misunderstood the OP and its intent yiostheoy, but isn't it great that this is a big board with lots and lots of threads more to your liking. So I will ask you to stay on topic while you ignore the topic or else enjoy one of those other threads. Thank you.

 

[Andylusion]

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Who asked the following:

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So, in your world, your way of 'debating' is to ask a question, and when people answer your question, you claim it's a red herring? Wouldn't that make you the author of the red herring, that by your own admission, no one should bother responding to?

Aside from the incompetence of your 'argument' (as if asking questions and declare any logical and intelligent answer to be a red herring, was an argument), the answer directly relates to this discussion.

Certain groups in our society, actively try and integrate into society, and are therefore successful. Such as the Asians, which routinely come here and succeed, with a higher standard of living than white Americans.

Other groups in our society, actively try and be different than society, and rebel against the societal norms. As such these groups tend to live in the lower class.

The truth is, all people who engage in rebelling against societal norms, face consequences. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people at the drive through, with nose rings, tattoos, and black eye shadow. And I live in a middle class area.

Why these people working there, instead of a corporate office, or bank, or some other place? Because they have a nose ring, tattoos, and black eye shadow.

The only difference from these white people rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, and the black guys rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, is that black people can blame "white privilege" for the results of their choices.

Again, the black people that act, work, talk, and dress like the cultural norms are not at the whooper flooper place. They are up in engineering.

In fact, I have a perfect example right now. There's a black guy who is in engineering, and he just got demoted. Why? He smells. He doesn't take showers, and instead sprays himself with smelly crap. The other engineers can't stand working with him, so they sent him down stairs to test broken stuff. Because they can't stand working with him. He stinks.

You can't succeed when you refuse to abide by the cultural norms. Has nothing to do with race, or white privilege.

 

[GaryDog]

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Who asked the following:

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So, in your world, your way of 'debating' is to ask a question, and when people answer your question, you claim it's a red herring? Wouldn't that make you the author of the red herring, that by your own admission, no one should bother responding to?

Aside from the incompetence of your 'argument' (as if asking questions and declare any logical and intelligent answer to be a red herring, was an argument), the answer directly relates to this discussion.

Certain groups in our society, actively try and integrate into society, and are therefore successful. Such as the Asians, which routinely come here and succeed, with a higher standard of living than white Americans.

Other groups in our society, actively try and be different than society, and rebel against the societal norms. As such these groups tend to live in the lower class.

The truth is, all people who engage in rebelling against societal norms, face consequences. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people at the drive through, with nose rings, tattoos, and black eye shadow. And I live in a middle class area.

Why these people working there, instead of a corporate office, or bank, or some other place? Because they have a nose ring, tattoos, and black eye shadow.

The only difference from these white people rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, and the black guys rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, is that black people can blame "white privilege" for the results of their choices.

Again, the black people that act, work, talk, and dress like the cultural norms are not at the whooper flooper place. They are up in engineering.

In fact, I have a perfect example right now. There's a black guy who is in engineering, and he just got demoted. Why? He smells. He doesn't take showers, and instead sprays himself with smelly crap. The other engineers can't stand working with him, so they sent him down stairs to test broken stuff. Because they can't stand working with him. He stinks.

You can't succeed when you refuse to abide by the cultural norms. Has nothing to do with race, or white privilege.

Your last sentence just proved why your entire argument was a red-herring. It's not in any way related to race, which is the topic of the debate. And my question regarding "mainstream Americans" was targeted at the IMPLICATION of that question, i.e. black people are not mainstream Americans.

The statement in itself was completely from a white-supremacist view. Which illustrates the existence of "white privilege" in America perfectly. Matter of fact, the entirety of your last 2 posts just explicitly explained why there is, indeed, "white privilege" in America.

Another example is your needless identification of the race of the "black engineer" that was demoted. How many smelly white engineers are sent downstairs? White people don't stink? Sure, we both know they do. But when they do, they're not considered a representative of their race. Only black people are.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Who asked the following:

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So, in your world, your way of 'debating' is to ask a question, and when people answer your question, you claim it's a red herring? Wouldn't that make you the author of the red herring, that by your own admission, no one should bother responding to?

Aside from the incompetence of your 'argument' (as if asking questions and declare any logical and intelligent answer to be a red herring, was an argument), the answer directly relates to this discussion.

Certain groups in our society, actively try and integrate into society, and are therefore successful. Such as the Asians, which routinely come here and succeed, with a higher standard of living than white Americans.

Other groups in our society, actively try and be different than society, and rebel against the societal norms. As such these groups tend to live in the lower class.

The truth is, all people who engage in rebelling against societal norms, face consequences. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people at the drive through, with nose rings, tattoos, and black eye shadow. And I live in a middle class area.

Why these people working there, instead of a corporate office, or bank, or some other place? Because they have a nose ring, tattoos, and black eye shadow.

The only difference from these white people rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, and the black guys rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, is that black people can blame "white privilege" for the results of their choices.

Again, the black people that act, work, talk, and dress like the cultural norms are not at the whooper flooper place. They are up in engineering.

In fact, I have a perfect example right now. There's a black guy who is in engineering, and he just got demoted. Why? He smells. He doesn't take showers, and instead sprays himself with smelly crap. The other engineers can't stand working with him, so they sent him down stairs to test broken stuff. Because they can't stand working with him. He stinks.

You can't succeed when you refuse to abide by the cultural norms. Has nothing to do with race, or white privilege.

It is pertinent to re-emphasize from your post, that the guy who was demoted was not demoted because he was black. He was demoted for poor personal hygiene. The same thing would have happened had he been white.

The rules mostly work identically for people of any race:

People born into poor/bad circumstances may have to work harder, but they can and do succeed. People born into much better circumstances can fail badly if they don't do what is necessary for success.

Again a solid prescription for success is:

--Stay in school and educate yourself.

--Stay away from illegal substances and activities.

--Don't have kids before you marry a stable, responsible mate.

--Clean yourself up, practice good English, and dress for success. People with poor hygiene, who dress like hookers or somebody spending the day at the beach or who expose their butts above baggy pants, who look like gang bangers, and/or who cannot speak in the language of business aren't going to be attractive to employers.

--Learn how to be courteous and respectful of others.

--If you can't get the job you want immediately, take whatever entry level job you can get, develop a work ethic, acquire skills and references that will qualify you for promotion and/or better jobs.

Anybody who presents himself/herself as a parent or role model for kids, no matter what the race, should be teaching those principles every step of the way.

And meanwhile, the rest of us should be working on the 'white privilege' angle McWhorter presented and not keep pushing that certain people in society are victims, oppressed, disadvantaged, mistreated until they believe their situation is hopeless or they see violence and misbehavior as the way out for them.

 

[GaryDog]

I think it is indeed a myth that a black person who follows the "rules" for prosperity, i.e. educate yourself, don't break the law, get married before having kids, dress, speak, and behave as mainstream Americans do, get whatever job you can to develop skills, references, experience, and make yourself valuable to an employer, will not succeed no matter what the color of his/her skin.

But. . .

As McWhorter said, the coworkers won't think the white guy got his position and promotions via affirmative action, won't treat the white guy with kid gloves to avoid any appearance of discrimination, won't expect the white guy to 'be a credit to his race' or provide the point of view of his race etc. And the white guy won't be accused of 'acting white' or being an 'uncle Tom' or worse by other white people. The white guy can be 'bawled out' without accusations of a hate crime being committed.

That is the 'white privilege' the so-called civil rights leaders perpetuate by demanding that government continue to advantage the black community. And because that is so profitable for the civil rights leaders--both black and white--they in fact disadvantage black people by instilling a victim and entitlement mentality and/or force others to see them as a protected class because they are incapable of making it on merit.

And that in turn creates a separate and distinct 'black culture' that resents any of their members who seem to 'act white' in order to get ahead.

It's a cruel, vicious circle perpetuated by well intended, but misguided do-gooders.

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So not only do you think white privilege is a myth, you believe black privilege is real? I think it would behoove you to do some actual research on the topic, read feedback from black Americans in the workplace, or those who deal with police, and get back to me. You seem to be operating from a white power perspective.

Every culture, has cultural norms, that when followed, benefit the person following them, and when rebelled against, harm the person rebelling against them.

This is true in every country, in every culture, in every location on this planet.

I was reading about the trip to mud huts in some place in Africa, and the reporter was asking about life in the village, and the village chief said that anyone who doesn't follow the culture of the village, is forced out. You can't live there. This is true everywhere.

Every culture. Every nation. Every place. If you show up, doing your own thing, marching to your own drum, then you can't be apart of the band.

People today have confused a right to do your own thing, with a right to be accepted no matter what you do. That's not true. You have no right to force other people to accept you. You have the right to accept not being accepted, but that's your own fault.

There was this guy who worked at a bank. He showed up wearing a suit and tie. You don't get a job at the bank, if you don't show up in a suit and tie. At home, he wore a wife beater shirt, and cussed like B rated movie. At work, he dressed like everyone, talked like everyone, and behaved like everyone.

You must conform, or you will not succeed. That's how life works. If you really want to be a slob, and talk like a alley dealer, and act like a hoodlum, then you will either be constantly frustrated by a lack of success.... or you need to find a job as a tattoo artist, or some other slimy profession, where that is accepted.

Again, this is how life works.

At the place I lived before, a group of guys from the University opened a pizza shop. I thought I would try it out, because I generally support small business, and entrepreneurs. I walked into this place, and they were all dressed like slobs. Complete and total slobs. They clearly didn't shower, and their hair was a greasy mess. And when they gave me the box, someone had written f**ker on the top. I told them to keep the pizza, and never came back. It closed under a year.

You want to do things your own way, you can. We have Freedom here, and you can speak broken English, dress like a thug, and act like a stoner. You can do whatever you want.

But you will have a hard time in life. If you are ok with that, fine. But stop complaining about it. Because it's your fault. Only yours. No one elses.

I have a guy renting my room right now, from Bangladesh. He irons his shirts. Wares only button down shirt, with slacks, and a tie to work. He asks me constantly if he is pronouncing the words correctly, as he learns more and more English.

That's why he makes $90,000 a year at age 24. By the way, being an extreme minority, I haven't heard him complain about racism yet, although he's as brown as one gets. Doesn't seem to be complaining about white privilege much. I guess he missed the memo that he wasn't allowed to succeed in life.

This strikes me as a complete red-herring with respect to the issue. Dressing sloppily won't get you a job at a bank? Okay....I agree.

But what's that got to do with the white privilege argument? That's not the concern here. No one's arguing that you should dress like you're going to a Kanye concert and be accepted as if you're Jared Kushner.

I honestly think this post deserves no further reply than that.

Who asked the following:

"Dress, speak and behave as mainstream Americans"?

What does that mean, exactly? And when you answer, try to sound as racist as possible.

So, in your world, your way of 'debating' is to ask a question, and when people answer your question, you claim it's a red herring? Wouldn't that make you the author of the red herring, that by your own admission, no one should bother responding to?

Aside from the incompetence of your 'argument' (as if asking questions and declare any logical and intelligent answer to be a red herring, was an argument), the answer directly relates to this discussion.

Certain groups in our society, actively try and integrate into society, and are therefore successful. Such as the Asians, which routinely come here and succeed, with a higher standard of living than white Americans.

Other groups in our society, actively try and be different than society, and rebel against the societal norms. As such these groups tend to live in the lower class.

The truth is, all people who engage in rebelling against societal norms, face consequences. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people at the drive through, with nose rings, tattoos, and black eye shadow. And I live in a middle class area.

Why these people working there, instead of a corporate office, or bank, or some other place? Because they have a nose ring, tattoos, and black eye shadow.

The only difference from these white people rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, and the black guys rebelling and ending up flipping burgers, is that black people can blame "white privilege" for the results of their choices.

Again, the black people that act, work, talk, and dress like the cultural norms are not at the whooper flooper place. They are up in engineering.

In fact, I have a perfect example right now. There's a black guy who is in engineering, and he just got demoted. Why? He smells. He doesn't take showers, and instead sprays himself with smelly crap. The other engineers can't stand working with him, so they sent him down stairs to test broken stuff. Because they can't stand working with him. He stinks.

You can't succeed when you refuse to abide by the cultural norms. Has nothing to do with race, or white privilege.

It is pertinent to re-emphasize from your post, that the guy who was demoted was not demoted because he was black. He was demoted for poor personal hygiene. The same thing would have happened had he been white.

The rules mostly work identically for people of any race:

People born into poor/bad circumstances may have to work harder, but they can and do succeed. People born into much better circumstances can fail badly if they don't do what is necessary for success.

Again a solid prescription for success is:

--Stay in school and educate yourself.

--Stay away from illegal substances and activities.

--Don't have kids before you marry a stable, responsible mate.

--Clean yourself up, practice good English, and dress for success. People with poor hygiene, who dress like hookers or somebody spending the day at the beach or who expose their butts above baggy pants, who look like gang bangers, and/or who cannot speak in the language of business aren't going to be attractive to employers.

--Learn how to be courteous and respectful of others.

--If you can't get the job you want immediately, take whatever entry level job you can get, develop a work ethic, acquire skills and references that will qualify you for promotion and/or better jobs.

Anybody who presents himself/herself as a parent or role model for kids, no matter what the race, should be teaching those principles every step of the way.

And meanwhile, the rest of us should be working on the 'white privilege' angle McWhorter presented and not keep pushing that certain people in society are victims, oppressed, disadvantaged, mistreated until they believe their situation is hopeless or they see violence and misbehavior as the way out for them.

I don't understand why you keep repeating this public service announcement. No one's confused about how to succeed in life. No one doubts that SOME people born poor and disadvantaged succeed, and SOME people born into privilege can fail.


While I'm able to admit to those true (but incredibly boring and inconsequential statements, vis a vis the "debate") you seem chronically unable to admit that, in America, circumstances of birth (including race) give some people a head start, and others a delayed start, or not start at all.

Have I more or less summarized your position: "White privilege doesn't exist"?

Or put another way, do you think the outcome will be the same for two people of equal IQ, and and equal professional proclivities born into very different circumstances?