Debate Now Illegals and Social Security. Good thing? Bad thing?

[Foxfyre]

This thread is in the Structured Debate Zone. If this is your first visit please review the rules for this forum and then join right in. The question to be discussed is at the bottom of the OP.

In the past week, a number of sources have been reporting that millions of people in the country illegally will be most likely be eligible for social security when President Obama's November amnesty executive order goes into full implementation.

Those given amnesty or those whose deportation is deferred will probably be eligible for social security retirement, survivor, and disability benefits even though they were working with a fraudulent social security number.

In November it was first said that this would not be the case. But shortly after, it was announced that the administration had misspoken and the President's order could make all social security benefits available to many illegals.
Illegals To Receive Social Security Credit For Time Worked Illegally The Daily Caller

"Illegals" for purposes of this discussion is not meant as a pejorative term but means all those who voluntarily or involuntarily entered the USA via illegal means or overstayed their visas.

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION

1. Please stay reasonably on topic as expressed in the question to be discussed.

2. No ad hominem. Focus on the member's argument instead of on the member.

3. Rebut the other person's argument with your own opinion and sources if you disagree with it rather than objection to his/her sources or with demands that he/she provide documentation for his/her opinion or point of view. Opinion without sources is okay.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED

If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?

 

[Foxfyre]

In the simplest language the existing Social Security Law is this (from the official government Social Security website):

Immigrants
If you're a non-citizen applying to enter the U.S., you must:

• Request a Social Security number card as part of your immigrant visa application; and
• Be a lawfully admitted permanent resident.

If you're a refugee, we're sorry but you can't apply for a Social Security number card in your country of origin.​

Social Security Numbers and Immigrant Visas

So of course the President's executive order pretty much overturns this law.

I was watching a newscast this past week reporting that many social security numbers issued to people who, if they were still living, would be well up into their hundreds, but they are currently actively being used by active workers and/or people are drawing benefits

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

In the simplest language the existing Social Security Law is this (from the official government Social Security website):

Immigrants
If you're a non-citizen applying to enter the U.S., you must:

• Request a Social Security number card as part of your immigrant visa application; and
• Be a lawfully admitted permanent resident.

If you're a refugee, we're sorry but you can't apply for a Social Security number card in your country of origin.​

Social Security Numbers and Immigrant Visas

So of course the President's executive order pretty much overturns this law.

I was watching a newscast this past week reporting that many social security numbers issued to people who, if they were still living, would be well up into their hundreds, but they are currently actively being used by active workers and/or people are drawing benefits

Bingo!

Millions of illegal aliens have been contributing to SS funds for many decades now without drawing anything out of it.

But instead of thanking them the OP just believes that it is an "outrage" that any of them might actually qualify after yet another 10 years of hard work.

 

[Foxfyre]

I believe a review of the thread rules is already in order here.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I believe a review of the thread rules is already in order here.

Nothing I have posted violates those rules.

But if they do IYO please feel free to point out exactly what you have a problem with.

 

[Ravi]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

 

[Foxfyre]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

When the President announces that he does not intend to enforce the existing immigration laws, what do you call that: amnesty? Or malfeasance in office?

 

[Foxfyre]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

 

[Ravi]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

They could apply all they want but their applications won't be accepted unless they are either citizens or lawful immigrants.

 

[Ravi]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

They could apply all they want but their applications won't be accepted unless they are either citizens or lawful immigrants.

They might be eligible to receive pending a final determination of their immigration status, such as with refugees.

 

[Ravi]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

They could apply all they want but their applications won't be accepted unless they are either citizens or lawful immigrants.

They might be eligible to receive pending a final determination of their immigration status, such as with refugees.

And then they wouldn't be illegal....

 

[Foxfyre]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

 

[Ravi]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Or one that says he did. Read the EO. Read the requirements to receive the benefits. Connect the dots.

This is nothing but hysterical xenophobic BS.

 

[Syriusly]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

 

[Foxfyre]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

Thank you for returning to the basic premise of the OP. That is much appreciated.

There is the argument that what harm is there for the illegals to be paying into the social security system? Most especially if they will never draw social security (which of course is also now an issue as expressed in the OP.)

If they DO draw social security for the average length of time most SS recipients draw social security, most will draw out more than they pay in.

Then there is the issue of rewarding them for using a fraudulent card. If they are using your number they may be paying into your account, but at what price to you? If they are buying a house or taking out credit cards or violating the tax code using your social security number, what is that doing to your credit? Your reputation? Your opportunities?

And many are taking jobs that would have been offered to citizens or people here legally who would have been paying into the system using legitimate social security numbers and that offsets much if not most of the any advantage for what the illegals are paying in.

 

[Syriusly]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

Thank you for returning to the basic premise of the OP. That is much appreciated.

There is the argument that what harm is there for the illegals to be paying into the social security system? Most especially if they will never draw social security (which of course is also now an issue as expressed in the OP.)

If they DO draw social security for the average length of time most SS recipients draw social security, most will draw out more than they pay in.

Then there is the issue of rewarding them for using a fraudulent card. If they are using your number they may be paying into your account, but at what price to you? If they are buying a house or taking out credit cards or violating the tax code using your social security number, what is that doing to your credit? Your reputation? Your opportunities?

And many are taking jobs that would have been offered to citizens or people here legally who would have been paying into the system using legitimate social security numbers.

I think that the issue of illegals taking jobs from legals here would be a distraction and would derail what I think is a good topic on SS. A valid topic on its own- but if pursued will just derail in this thread.

I think it is important to acknowledge that currently illegals who are getting paid above the table are helping pay Social Security for all of us legals. The reason to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that there may be a bias to keeping them in this status to provide additional tax revenue into the SS system that will never have to be paid out.

Regarding the use of a fraudulant SS#- I agree- that is why I think in essence illegals should forfeit those monies- but I think once they are paying into the system with their own SS#, then they should be eligible for Social Security benefits- but not for past payments with illegal use of a SS#.

 

[Foxfyre]

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

Thank you for returning to the basic premise of the OP. That is much appreciated.

There is the argument that what harm is there for the illegals to be paying into the social security system? Most especially if they will never draw social security (which of course is also now an issue as expressed in the OP.)

If they DO draw social security for the average length of time most SS recipients draw social security, most will draw out more than they pay in.

Then there is the issue of rewarding them for using a fraudulent card. If they are using your number they may be paying into your account, but at what price to you? If they are buying a house or taking out credit cards or violating the tax code using your social security number, what is that doing to your credit? Your reputation? Your opportunities?

And many are taking jobs that would have been offered to citizens or people here legally who would have been paying into the system using legitimate social security numbers.

I think that the issue of illegals taking jobs from legals here would be a distraction and would derail what I think is a good topic on SS. A valid topic on its own- but if pursued will just derail in this thread.

I think it is important to acknowledge that currently illegals who are getting paid above the table are helping pay Social Security for all of us legals. The reason to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that there may be a bias to keeping them in this status to provide additional tax revenue into the SS system that will never have to be paid out.

Regarding the use of a fraudulant SS#- I agree- that is why I think in essence illegals should forfeit those monies- but I think once they are paying into the system with their own SS#, then they should be eligible for Social Security benefits- but not for past payments with illegal use of a SS#.

We can police ourselves re potential thread derailments I think, but I don't think you can discount what the social security fund is not receiving from the unemployed from the equation. Or what it costs the social security fund for those forced into early retirement.

Most especially when the only serious justification some can come up with is that it benefits us for the illegals to pay into the social security system and therefore we shouldn't have a problem with that.