What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back?

[Challenger]

Honest answer? Jewish "return" is a Zionist myth. Temple Judaism was replaced by Rabbinical Judaism which was proselytised throughout the Roman Empire in direct competition with Christianity, until Christianity "won". Subsequent persecution by Christians created an idea of "return" to as a spiritual redemption amongst the Jewish converts. Zionism perverted this idea of a spiritual return into one of physical "return". Had Herzl become a playwrite instead of a political theorist, Jewish Britons, French, Germans, Poles, Russians would be happily living their lives in Europe or migrating to America. Assuming no rise of Fascism and WW2 of course.

Palestine would have eventually gained independance from the British empire and as the original proposed constitution stated, been a progressive inclusive state of its Muslim, Jewish and Christian populations. Jewish and Christian Europeans would be able to immigrate and become citizens of Palestine if they so desired. Haifa, being the terminal of Oil piplines from Iran and Iraq, would have helped generate wealth and investment and British knowhow would have improved agriculture and infrastructure.

Palestine without Zionists would have been much like pre 1958 Lebanon

 

[docmauser1]

Palestine would have eventually gained independance from the British empire and as the original proposed constitution stated, been a progressive inclusive state of its Muslim, Jewish and Christian populations. Jewish and Christian Europeans would be able to immigrate and become citizens of Palestine if they so desired. Haifa, being the terminal of Oil piplines from Iran and Iraq, would have helped generate wealth and investment and British knowhow would have improved agriculture and infrastructure. Palestine without Zionists would have been much like pre 1958 Lebanon

The pink world is seen through the red eyes.

 

[Coyote]

Daniel Pipes. Ugh.

What is "Team Palestine"?

Those like yourself that support arab nationalism and terrorism and demonise Israel because of deep seated anti semitism and Jew hatreds

Where have I supported terrorism?

Oh yes. Pull the anti-semite card then turn around and look in the mirror. It's all you have left.

 

[Coyote]

@Coyote :

"Team Palestine" is a moniker that @Daniyel came up with very recently. I used to say the 'pro-Pali' folks. You very recently replied in another thread with the moniker "Team Israel", here:

Hamas "We killed the Israeli teens" | Page 3 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

but I guess you as a mod have a very short memory with all the duties you have. So what do you mean by it?

I just told you Teddi, or did you miss it? It was in direct response to Daniyel's use of the term "Team Palestine". I thought that was pretty clear?

I'll say this much, and it is sad that we are on different "teams", however, those on "Team Palestine" seem to be very good at derailing threads, or deflecting from the original question in the OP of the thread or at the very end, (now this applies to both "teams") name calling.

It is sad we appear to be on "different teams" though as I recall you used to claim to be coming here with an "open mind". I find both teams quite good at derailing when it suits them, don't you?

You, in this thread have shown me once and for all that your are on "Team Palestine" insomuch as you have very artfully performed the former two actions in my last sentence, though I have never seen you do the latter.

There is no once and for all about it, and what team I am on depends on the situation being discussed. It is exactly that kind of forced dichotomy - your must be one or the other NO MATTER WHAT that makes me such a crank-ass. I think the Palestinians have a right to a homeland and state and a just solution. I think Israel is no angel in this either and there are real inequities in it's system in the way justice and rights are granted to the people under it's control. Likewise, I feel Israel has every right to protect it's people from Hamas rocket attacks, and a right to exist. Hamas has done no favors for it's people but unlike the current propaganda drival that is currenty intent on demonizing it - I think the PLO is a lot better than Hamas. So which team am I on? Probably Palestinian. But it's a false and forced dichotomy that is runs through every debate.

So now that I have explained all that for you (including reminding you of your reference to the two "Teams") and indulged you with your derailment and deflection of the original question of this thread.

You've explained nothing.

What is your answer?

The answer is there is no way of knowing and anyone who pretends otherwise is lying.

What would Palestine be like if there had been NO CONFLICT? What kind of country would it be? Would the factions be as intractable as they are now? What could have developed without all the wars and poltical maneuverings? No one knows. It's an empty question.

We can use the evidence that is all around and say without a shadow of a doubt that if the Jews had not returned then Palestine would be very much like Syria and Iraq is today. There would be no enterprising Jews making the desert bloom, or water flowing from pipes. But there would be millions of refugees fleeing the ISLAMONAZI EXTREMISTS, and dead bodies littering the towns and cities. The west would be embroiled in the fighting and ISLAMONAZI TERRORISTS would be planning their next major attack on a western nation.

No - we really can not. Nothing happens in a vaccuum - history is built upon prior events and each event has a ripple effect all around it. The establishment of Israel and surrounding countries led to thousands of subsequent actions and skirmishes that eventually led to the events of today. If none of that happened - maybe another people would have made Israel "bloom" - who knows? It's completely ignorant to claim you would "know" what it would be like - you wouldn't because you can't begin the untangle all the events that have led to todays situation and - in particular, what spawned your "ISLAMONAZI TERRORISTS". Really though - have you ever considered expanding your vocaublary? Shouting in caps and oversized colored font just makes you look like a child who can't make a point in his "indoor voice" so instead yells the same thing louder and louder and louder.

 

[docmauser1]

... If none of that happened - maybe another people would have made Israel "bloom" - who knows? ...

In this probability it becomes certainty that, the territory would've been divided between Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and that ragtag palistanian collection of ME arabs would've been egyptians, syrians and jordanians, blooming happily like said countries. heh

 

[BillyP]

What would Palestine look like if it wasn't infected with a retarded religion like Islam?

 

[Lipush]

Daniel Pipes. Ugh.

What is "Team Palestine"?

Probably something borrowed from Twilight fangirls. *shivers*

 

[Indofred]

It's very hard to tell what Palestine would have been like with no Jewish invasion.
I know a lot less people would be dead.

The Jewish Invasion lie is Palestinian Propaganda (which you are an expert in)
The European Jews were invited by the British who also facilitated their immigration. The only invasion was that of the 5 Arab states who came to attack Israel. The Muslim Arab invasion that is.

I love a good lie - mostly because it's really easy to make you look stupid.

"Exodus 1947" Illegal Immigration Ship | Jewish Virtual Library

The ship Exodus 1947 became a symbol of Aliya Bet — illegal immigration. After World War II, illegal immigration increased and the British authorities decided to stop it by sending the ships back to the ports of embarkation in Europe. The first ship to which this policy was applied was the Exodus 1947.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The ship sailed from the port of Site, near Marseilles, on July 11, 1947, with 4,515 immigrants, including 655 children, on board. As soon as it left the territorial waters of France, British destroyers accompanied it. On July 18, near the coast of Palestine but outside territorial waters, the British rammed the ship and boarded it, while the immigrants put up a desperate defense. Two immigrants and a crewman were killed in the battle, and 30 were wounded. The ship was towed to Haifa, where the immigrants were forced onto deportation ships bound for France. At Port-de-Bouc, in southern France, the would-be immigrants remained in the ships’ holds for 24 days during a heat wave, refusing to disembark despite the shortage of food, the crowding and the abominable sanitary conditions. The French government refused to force them off the boat. Eventually, the British decided to return the would-be immigrants to Germany, and on August 22 the ship left for the port of Hamburg, then in the British occupation zone. The immigrants were forcibly taken off and transported to two camps near Lubeck.

 

[Indofred]

So basically, the US and Great Britain are at fault for everything bad in the Middle East.
Uh huh.

A lot of it, yes.
Without that interference, there would likely be far fewer problems than there are today.

What about the arab league interference then, or the Russian interference. Or have you forgotten about those.............

I have not; in fact, I've condemned ALL foreign interference many times.
Sorry to ruin your attempt at a lie.

 

[toastman]

It's very hard to tell what Palestine would have been like with no Jewish invasion.
I know a lot less people would be dead.

The Jewish Invasion lie is Palestinian Propaganda (which you are an expert in)
The European Jews were invited by the British who also facilitated their immigration. The only invasion was that of the 5 Arab states who came to attack Israel. The Muslim Arab invasion that is.

I love a good lie - mostly because it's really easy to make you look stupid.

"Exodus 1947" Illegal Immigration Ship | Jewish Virtual Library

The ship Exodus 1947 became a symbol of Aliya Bet — illegal immigration. After World War II, illegal immigration increased and the British authorities decided to stop it by sending the ships back to the ports of embarkation in Europe. The first ship to which this policy was applied was the Exodus 1947.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The ship sailed from the port of Site, near Marseilles, on July 11, 1947, with 4,515 immigrants, including 655 children, on board. As soon as it left the territorial waters of France, British destroyers accompanied it. On July 18, near the coast of Palestine but outside territorial waters, the British rammed the ship and boarded it, while the immigrants put up a desperate defense. Two immigrants and a crewman were killed in the battle, and 30 were wounded. The ship was towed to Haifa, where the immigrants were forced onto deportation ships bound for France. At Port-de-Bouc, in southern France, the would-be immigrants remained in the ships’ holds for 24 days during a heat wave, refusing to disembark despite the shortage of food, the crowding and the abominable sanitary conditions. The French government refused to force them off the boat. Eventually, the British decided to return the would-be immigrants to Germany, and on August 22 the ship left for the port of Hamburg, then in the British occupation zone. The immigrants were forcibly taken off and transported to two camps near Lubeck.

Obviously, you missed my point. You and the other pro Palestinian liars make it look like all of the European Jews INVADED the land as if they came out of nowhere and immidiately started attacking the Arabs.
As for the ship of Jews from Europe... Can you blame the?? 1947 was a mere two years after the end of the Holocaust and anti Semitism was rampant. Not to mention their fellow Jews bought land and were invited by the British to reside in Mandatory Palestine. So these Jews were not only escaping the anti Semitic Eurotrash, but they were also going to a place where many of their fellow Jews were.

 

[Daniyel]

@Challenger
Karl Marx in New-York Herald Tribune 1854
Here some Israeli propaganda for you to judge.

 

[Billo_Really]

Why not say what you really feel bitch?

USMB rules prevent me from saying what I'd like to say. Be thankful for that, Ted.

 

[Billo_Really]

You really do just sit there and invent the history you want, don't you phoney.

His bullshit, isn't even good bullshit.

 

[teddyearp]

Why not say what you really feel bitch?

USMB rules prevent me from saying what I'd like to say. Be thankful for that, Ted.

IMHO it's never stopped you before.

 

[Billo_Really]

The Jews would be extinct in the M.E. by now and the arab muslims would be fighting along cult lines for greater control of the land.

That's the big lie you keep telling, but history doesn't back you up on that. The only reason there is violence in that area, is because you fuckers imported it in.

 

[Billo_Really]

IMHO it's never stopped you before.

How the fuck would you know, Mr. 417 post, June 9th newbie?

 

[teddyearp]

@Daniyel that was an interesting read and the English of that day makes it hard for me to see the bearing on this trhead.

@Coyote: Yes you are right. I did come here with an open mind, thanks for reminding me of that. You must admit to the polarization that seems to happen here though. I have learned some things, but have become somewhat polarized (i.e. frustrated) just because of the way threads can instantly veer off the original question; which unfortunately you did in the very first post in this thread by focusing on the "Team" thing instead of answering immediately the question I asked. It took you a few posts to do so. And it was a good answer. We can not know with certainty what would have happened. I agree.

However, I am of an opinion as others have posted that had the Jews not returned and just dealt with what they were given in the rest of the world, that the "Palestinians" (and that part of the world) would be either citizens of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, of a varied combination of such.

I also loathe the capitalization of the name calling, and even though it doesn't seem like it in some of my posts in this thread, the epithets and cussing as well.

@Phoenall I must have to admit the you are wrong about the British Mandate and it's connection with the Jews being allowed and/or invited to return to Israel. The Mandate was part of the end of WWI, regardless of the Balfour Declaration or the oft forgotten McMahon-Hussein correspondence.

 

[Daniyel]

IMHO it's never stopped you before.

How the fuck would you know, Mr. 417 post, June 9th newbie?

Here goes the tyrant..Billo care to explain what the fuck do you know about the Israel-Arab conflict?
"SIEGE WAR CRIME INHUMANE MISTREATED PALESTINIANS NETANFUCKME PROPAGANDA IM NOT EVADING BUT IT DOESN'T CONJUGATE WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT" - is what basically YOU always say sometimes in different syntax or context..eleven years of bullshit, better bring some fresh blood like a true democracy once in 4 to 6 years..but you are just like Hamas, ME ME ME IM THE MOST IMPORTANT BECAUSE WHAT I SAY OR THINK MUST BE TRUE AND IF NOT FUCK YOU!

 

[teddyearp]

IMHO it's never stopped you before.

How the fuck would you know, Mr. 417 post, June 9th newbie?

As to the part before your comma, excuse me all to hell. You are right. I've only once very briefly perused your posts in other sections of this site. My opinion come from the posts in this section.

As for the part after the comma, post count means not a g-d damned thing to me (nor does date of signing up). It's the quality, not the quantity of posts that means anything to any reading person. I am more concerned that I had something of worth to say, not my actual post count. There are plenty of sites that I have been a member of for much longer than here and am fairly proud of my relatively low post count.

Oh crap, don't do it, don't do it, oh hell; I'm going to say it, ever heard of the term, "Post Whore?"

 

[teddyearp]

@Daniyel, now now, we have been told that since we only signed up since June 9 and July 9 our opinion and therefore low post count means nothing to the girl.