What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back?

[Daniyel]

@Daniyel, now now, we have been told that since we only signed up since June 9 and July 9 our opinion and therefore low post count means nothing to the girl.

The weirdest thing I found about the conflict is all the 'enlightened' and socially modernized 'Humanitarians' are completely against democracy, human rights, socialism, liberalism, capitalism, and every of the ideas they claim for, like 'sitting on the fence' is more like 'sitting on the illegal wall Israel built' or 'Even US media is against Israel' while 'Jews controlling the media'... frauds.

 

[Penelope]

US media is all pro Israel. Even Hannity was mentioned as what the 5th Iron Dome for Israel. I can't stomach Fox anymore. Of course they have to make it seem every now and then they are anti when Israel is destroying Gaza and its people, but that is just for show.

 

[Daniyel]

Like Inhaled Mashaal you prince charming, I'm sure you could make it to his fifth sex sla- I mean bride.

 

[Billo_Really]

@Daniyel, now now, we have been told that since we only signed up since June 9 and July 9 our opinion and therefore low post count means nothing to the girl.

It is when you try to make value judgments on people you haven't known that long!

 

[Billo_Really]

As to the part before your comma, excuse me all to hell. You are right. I've only once very briefly perused your posts in other sections of this site. My opinion come from the posts in this section.

As for the part after the comma, post count means not a g-d damned thing to me (nor does date of signing up). It's the quality, not the quantity of posts that means anything to any reading person. I am more concerned that I had something of worth to say, not my actual post count. There are plenty of sites that I have been a member of for much longer than here and am fairly proud of my relatively low post count.

Oh crap, don't do it, don't do it, oh hell; I'm going to say it, ever heard of the term, "Post Whore?"

In prison, you're what they would call a "tossed salad".

 

[Grendelyn]

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

You ask, you say, for an honest answer

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

"What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back(?)," you say? Hard question to answer for most of your fellow brethren (Team Israel <eyeroll>) claim Jews never left Palestine and have always had a presence there; that is to say, how can one come back to where he supposedly has always been? Perhaps you're confused on the issue between the Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews, the latter of which many say are the cause of all the problems in this area and, too, were never originally there in the first place.

 

[Phoenall]

You really do just sit there and invent the history you want, don't you phoney.

Show were it is wrong then, instead of just screeching LIAR all the time. The British turned away many refugee ships from Palestine because they were inherently anti semitic

 

[Beelzebub]

You really do just sit there and invent the history you want, don't you phoney.

Show were it is wrong then, instead of just screeching LIAR all the time. The British turned away many refugee ships from Palestine because they were inherently anti semitic

Are you suggesting that where you are wrong, if I don't take the position of your unpaid educator, you magically become right?

 

[Challenger]

However, I am of an opinion as others have posted that had the Jews not returned and just dealt with what they were given in the rest of the world, that the "Palestinians" (and that part of the world) would be either citizens of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, of a varied combination of such.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Without the burden of continuing British committment to the Balfour Declaration, Britain would have pressed on with her mandatory duties creating the civil and political infrasctructure to enable the Palestine Mandate to become independant of the British Empire as per LoN.

Without the Zionist "invasion" the existing Muslim, Jewish and Christian populations would have arrived at a modus vivendi and British influence would have ensured a progressive, inclusive form of government where everyone's civil and political rights were preserved. British influence would have also ensured that Palestine's neighbours would respect the territorial integrity of Palestine; the Hashemite kingdoms of Jordan and Iraq were at the very least beholden to the British for their existance and Britain propped up those regimes as well as that of Egypt.

Syria and Lebanon were democracies post WW1 and had absolutely no interest in acquiring Palestine.

It is also possible that Palestine would instead have become a Hashemite Kindom and Jordan would never have come into existance, but there again the "Kingdom of Palestine" would have been structured along the lines of a Constitutional Monarchy.

Jewish historian Tom Segev, gives a reasonable account of what really went on between 1918-1948 and it's easy to extrapolate a possible alternative history from this, as does Jonathan Schneer in "The Balfour Declaration" or James Barr's "A line in the Sand"

One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate: Amazon.co.uk: Tom Segev: Books

 

[Beelzebub]

Jewish historian Tom Segev, gives a reasonable account of what really went on between 1918-1948 and it's easy to extrapolate a possible alternative history from this, as does Jonathan Schneer in "The Balfour Declaration" or James Barr's "A line in the Sand"

One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate: Amazon.co.uk: Tom Segev: Books

Cool.
I hope its good. I've ordered it. The blurb does seem to be heading in the direction of "The British: It's all THEIR fault."

 

[Challenger]

Well, loathe that I am to admit it, when you look at it objectively, we did rather screw it up for everyone. Not our best moment in history.

 

[Beelzebub]

Yep. I am quite sure that is true.

The machinations which resulted in the relatively benign 'Balfour Declaration' seem to hint at something much more perverse underneath. I am sure there was very much of the Anglo / White Man superiority to Jonny Darko thinking, which led many of the leaders to think of 'natives' as needing to be directed and instructed by wiser whiter people.

I am also sure the US in 1918 had a lot of influence on nudging British policies in the middle east. But actually going with the pretty well documented desire of a Euro/Russian cult group to go be the masters of another people seems mighty peculiar. I daresay that it was not unlike the later Nazi ideal of shifting 'the problem types' to 'anywhere but here'.

Lawrence's ideas of emancipating Arabic peoples to reach their own iteration of modernity seems much more understandable. And i guess the leaders then never understood the dissolution of national boundaries in civilised nations, which was coming.

All those old-fashioned colonialist racist attitudes sure did find a home and bastion. Hopefully the last bastion.

 

[docmauser1]

Without the burden of continuing British committment to the Balfour Declaration, Britain would have pressed on with her mandatory duties creating the civil and political infrasctructure to enable the Palestine Mandate to become independant of the British Empire as per LoN.

And then it would've been divided happily among Syria, Jordan and Egypt, of course. Hitti didn't say that nonexistent palestine was just the southern Syria for nothing

Without the Zionist "invasion" the existing Muslim, Jewish and Christian populations would have arrived at a modus vivendi and British influence would have ensured a progressive, inclusive form of government where everyone's civil and political rights were preserved. ...

An "evil zionism" bloviatory of intellectuals, lolling in a lounge. Fantastique, that is.

 

[Indofred]

It's very hard to tell what Palestine would have been like with no Jewish invasion.
I know a lot less people would be dead.

The Jewish Invasion lie is Palestinian Propaganda (which you are an expert in)
The European Jews were invited by the British who also facilitated their immigration. The only invasion was that of the 5 Arab states who came to attack Israel. The Muslim Arab invasion that is.

I love a good lie - mostly because it's really easy to make you look stupid.

"Exodus 1947" Illegal Immigration Ship | Jewish Virtual Library

The ship Exodus 1947 became a symbol of Aliya Bet — illegal immigration. After World War II, illegal immigration increased and the British authorities decided to stop it by sending the ships back to the ports of embarkation in Europe. The first ship to which this policy was applied was the Exodus 1947.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The ship sailed from the port of Site, near Marseilles, on July 11, 1947, with 4,515 immigrants, including 655 children, on board. As soon as it left the territorial waters of France, British destroyers accompanied it. On July 18, near the coast of Palestine but outside territorial waters, the British rammed the ship and boarded it, while the immigrants put up a desperate defense. Two immigrants and a crewman were killed in the battle, and 30 were wounded. The ship was towed to Haifa, where the immigrants were forced onto deportation ships bound for France. At Port-de-Bouc, in southern France, the would-be immigrants remained in the ships’ holds for 24 days during a heat wave, refusing to disembark despite the shortage of food, the crowding and the abominable sanitary conditions. The French government refused to force them off the boat. Eventually, the British decided to return the would-be immigrants to Germany, and on August 22 the ship left for the port of Hamburg, then in the British occupation zone. The immigrants were forcibly taken off and transported to two camps near Lubeck.

Obviously, you missed my point. You and the other pro Palestinian liars make it look like all of the European Jews INVADED the land as if they came out of nowhere and immidiately started attacking the Arabs.
As for the ship of Jews from Europe... Can you blame the?? 1947 was a mere two years after the end of the Holocaust and anti Semitism was rampant. Not to mention their fellow Jews bought land and were invited by the British to reside in Mandatory Palestine. So these Jews were not only escaping the anti Semitic Eurotrash, but they were also going to a place where many of their fellow Jews were.

They weren't invited by the British. In fact, as I've shown, the British deported the illegal immigrants.

 

[docmauser1]

They weren't invited by the British. In fact, as I've shown, the British deported the illegal immigrants.

Funny, they didn't deport arab settlers and squatters from crowding the mandate palestine.

 

[teddyearp]

I hope its good. I've ordered it. The blurb does seem to be heading in the direction of "The British: It's all THEIR fault."

This is a point I've tried to make a few times. The British made promises to both sides and broke both of them. At first both sides were fighting the British and each other, then or now, just each other. But this is going off the topic of this thread . . . .

 

[Hossfly]

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

You ask, you say, for an honest answer

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

"What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back(?)," you say? Hard question to answer for most of your fellow brethren (Team Israel <eyeroll>) claim Jews never left Palestine and have always had a presence there; that is to say, how can one come back to where he supposedly has always been? Perhaps you're confused on the issue between the Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews, the latter of which many say are the cause of all the problems in this area and, too, were never originally there in the first place.

Are you still with your "eye roll" gig? I would have thought by now your eyes would be very tired from rolling them for years. Many Jews left centuries ago because of the Romans, but these Jews who landed up in Eastern Europe are called Ashkenazis. There are also Jews who left and landed up in Spain and Portugual These are called Sephardic but then had to leave because of the Inquisition. Many landed up in Greece. However, there were always Jews living in Palestine. These Middle Eastern Jews are Mizrahis with some Sephardic Jews in the mix. I think the trouble started when those European Jews had jobs for the Arabs who flooded into the country because their own countries were impoverished. You mean to say, with all the time you have on your hands, you haven't seen immigrants come to your town looking for work? They are not looking to be kept but to actually work.

 

[Daniyel]

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

You ask, you say, for an honest answer

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

I would like an honest answer about this from Team Palestine about this.

I ask in light of this thread:

Arab Envy Of Israel Contributes To Their Dysfunction | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

this thread:

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

And the article in above thread (which penelope provided from another thread here):

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

I could go on, but I really want to hear from Team Palestine about this question.

In light of how the rest of the Middle East is going and the history of how Islam cared about Israel ('Palestine') before the Jews decided to return; tell me honestly what 'Palestine' would be like today.

"What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back(?)," you say? Hard question to answer for most of your fellow brethren (Team Israel <eyeroll>) claim Jews never left Palestine and have always had a presence there; that is to say, how can one come back to where he supposedly has always been? Perhaps you're confused on the issue between the Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews, the latter of which many say are the cause of all the problems in this area and, too, were never originally there in the first place.

Are you still with your "eye roll" gig? I would have thought by now your eyes would be very tired from rolling them for years. Many Jews left centuries ago because of the Romans, but these Jews who landed up in Eastern Europe are called Ashkenazis. There are also Jews who left and landed up in Spain and Portugual These are called Sephardic but then had to leave because of the Inquisition. Many landed up in Greece. However, there were always Jews living in Palestine. These Middle Eastern Jews are Mizrahis with some Sephardic Jews in the mix. I think the trouble started when those European Jews had jobs for the Arabs who flooded into the country because their own countries were impoverished. You mean to say, with all the time you have on your hands, you haven't seen immigrants come to your town looking for work? They are not looking to be kept but to actually work.

That is correct, some of the Jews files from Spain went also to north africa and some went to Jerusalem, in 1845 and even before the majority populationin Jerusalem were Jews, three times more than Arab Muslims..

 

[Beelzebub]

I hope its good. I've ordered it. The blurb does seem to be heading in the direction of "The British: It's all THEIR fault."

This is a point I've tried to make a few times. The British made promises to both sides and broke both of them. At first both sides were fighting the British and each other, then or now, just each other. But this is going off the topic of this thread . . . .

Not inappropriately so, though.

I am sure the British were rather confused as to what they were after, because they were heading in many directions at the same time. 'Balfour Declaration' being prime evidence, of going for heavy fore-play but not going the full fuck. 'Pleasing' all parties, but not really thrilling any."

T.E. Lawrence also representing a position of some in that power. A minority view of anti-colonialism, until the 1940's when colonialism became too expensive.

I think the administrators saw the problems much clearer than the politicians, so put a brake on the ideas of sweeping all Jews into Palestine (specifically barred by the BD ), for the freedom of European Jews, and for respect for Palestinians of the time.

The Foreign Office and civil servants had a much better view of history, vision of the future and didn't allow politicians to go with their - probably anti-Semitic - instincts, by forcing Jews into a foreign place.

Sadly, Zionism with its own agenda - ironically completely in line with anti-Semitic sentiment - DID force them in. Britain went half-way with that, so was the greatest supporter, but much hated by Zionists for not going further.

And to this day Zionism mistreats Judaism, and carries the torch of 1800's racist thinking.

 

[Coyote]

@Daniyel that was an interesting read and the English of that day makes it hard for me to see the bearing on this trhead.

@Coyote: Yes you are right. I did come here with an open mind, thanks for reminding me of that. You must admit to the polarization that seems to happen here though. I have learned some things, but have become somewhat polarized (i.e. frustrated) just because of the way threads can instantly veer off the original question; which unfortunately you did in the very first post in this thread by focusing on the "Team" thing instead of answering immediately the question I asked. It took you a few posts to do so. And it was a good answer. We can not know with certainty what would have happened. I agree.

However, I am of an opinion as others have posted that had the Jews not returned and just dealt with what they were given in the rest of the world, that the "Palestinians" (and that part of the world) would be either citizens of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, of a varied combination of such.

I also loathe the capitalization of the name calling, and even though it doesn't seem like it in some of my posts in this thread, the epithets and cussing as well.

@Phoenall I must have to admit the you are wrong about the British Mandate and it's connection with the Jews being allowed and/or invited to return to Israel. The Mandate was part of the end of WWI, regardless of the Balfour Declaration or the oft forgotten McMahon-Hussein correspondence.

I do owe you an apology Teddy - my temper was very, well, crappy that night. You are one of the more civil posters and you didn't deserve my attitude.

I think historically - it's hard to tell what might have been but it is possible that Palestine/Israel would be part of some larger state rather than and independent entity.

What I wonder though, is if there had not been a mass immigration of Jewish immigrants and the creation of Israel - would there have been the level of conflict we see in Israel/Palestine and would anti-semitism have been as strong? Many of these people once lived side by side without issue.