CDZ What is torture?

[oldsoul]

Why do you dipshits on the right always have to assume what your imaginary liberal thinks? Do you birdbrains have a brain? For once think for yourself, what do you think is torture. Imagine for a moment you have a mind distinct from your favorite bogeyman, try to be a thoughtful person, a person who can think without applying some make believe nonsense to a strawman. I realize you'll probably find a vast emptiness but give it a try.

Is there something in the rules for the CDZ that you do not understand? You might want to re-read them and refresh your memory before posting again.

 

[Flopper]

And the guy who actuallyl did the work...

http://nypost.com/2012/05/06/how-we-broke-ksm/

The first day he was in custody, Mohammed — who attended college in Greensboro, NC — initially pretended to only speak Urdu, fooling no one. Officers forced him to stand, and after hours of questioning, his weakness for shut-eye began to show.

“Here’s the deal,” an interrogator said. “I know you speak English. I want you to politely ask me to let you go to sleep.”

The idea was to demonstrate to Mohammed “that he was no longer in control,” Rodriguez says. Officers would later keep him awake for 180 hours straight — 7 1/2 days. Loud noises and stress positions — where a detainee is shackled and forced to stand, putting intense pressure on the leg muscles — were used.

“It was much kinder than anything he would have done to an American captive, like Danny Pearl,” said Rodriguez, referring to the Wall Street Journal reporter Mohammed admitted to personally beheading in 2002.

When he finally folded, officers couldn’t get him to stop talking.

“Once they understand that they’ve come to the limits of their strength that their god will give them, they cooperate because they cannot resist beyond their strength,” explains Rodriguez, who said information extracted from Mohammed helped foil a range of terror schemes, including 9/11-style attacks on the West Coast in 2003.

Rodriguez contends information obtained from Mohammed and fellow terrorist Abu Zubaydah accounts for more than 50 percent of the terror-plot section of the 9/11 Commission report.

Sleep deprivation can work provide it is not used to a point where memory and cognitive functions are effected.. This has been used for many years by law enforcement. However, real torture such renal hydration and waterboarding does not. I think the CIA statements before the Senate Investigating committee have settled the issue as to the value of torture as an integration technique.

"He (Mohammed) was outright lying, sending U.S. operatives on wild goose chases. Dozens of times, the report describes information the CIA promoted as "critical" as having been "fabricated," "unfounded" or "not supported by internal CIA records."

The deputy chief of the CIA's interrogation program concluded that the waterboarding of Mohammed "has proven ineffective" and that "the potential for physical harm is far greater with the waterboard than with the other techniques, bringing into question the issue of risk vs. gain," according to the Senate report.

'Rectal Hydration': Inside the CIA's Interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - NBC News

 

[Flopper]

Waterboarding is Torture, Torture is A-Okay, during War. In this case we did not start this War, they did, they are enemies sworn to kill us, it is not our duty to talk them out of this, it is our duty to defend our children.

We must fight War as War, not as some exercise showing how nice we can be to brutal sadistic murderers that only have an education in 1st century barbarism.

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

 

[elektra]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

 

[OldLady]

We are no better than those who specifically target a religion?
What are the anti-immigration folks doing? Targeting not only a religion but slamming the door on people in dire need of safety.
Some of us ARE no better, IMO.

 

[Flopper]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

 

[320 Years of History]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Waterboarding is Torture, Torture is A-Okay, during War. In this case we did not start this War, they did, they are enemies sworn to kill us, it is not our duty to talk them out of this, it is our duty to defend our children.

We must fight War as War, not as some exercise showing how nice we can be to brutal sadistic murderers that only have an education in 1st century barbarism.

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

That is absurd.

To compare water boarding, which leaves a persons body intact, to people who drown people in cages and burn them alive is the epitome of how reason has become a lost art in Western Civilization.

 

[JimBowie1958]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

 

[320 Years of History]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

What I wrote doesn't depict a view of the world. It is an observation of judgement call about the ethical/moral nature of the of the things my country has done in its history.

 

[JimBowie1958]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

What I wrote doesn't depict a view of the world. It is an observation of judgement call about the ethical/moral nature of the of the things my country has done in its history.

Everything we say/write reflects our own moral world view. I think it is impossible for us not to.

But the point is that when we are 'so Heavenly minded that we are of no Earthly good,' we have gone too far with our prioritization of morality til it becomes a work of arrogance, of saying 'we dont have to try that hard to beat you'.

I do not give a rats ass about whether our nation is, as a state, moral or immoral as I do not believe that there is any validity to a nation-state moral values systems. Morality is of an entirely individual nature.

But I do think it is important to place so much priority on what works, that morality is nothing more than ambiance instead of a substitute for rational policy making.

 

[Flopper]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

We do not need to torture the enemy to survive. It's been said over and over by the CIA, psychologists, the US Senate, and other government agencies and officials, torture is an ineffective method of interrogation. We should not let our desire for revenge, interfere with our goal of winning the fight.

 

[JimBowie1958]

All torture does is make us feel better, and at that point, we're not any better than ISIS themselves.

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

We do not need to torture the enemy to survive. It's been said over and over by the CIA, psychologists, the US Senate, and other government agencies and officials, torture is an ineffective method of interrogation. We should not let our desire for revenge, interfere with our goal of winning the fight.

It has been said by *some* government officials, etc that torture is not effective, but then these are people whose jobs depend on the Presidents approval, whose careers are vulnerable to political reprisals and who always seem to parrot what the left finds to be the Latest Greatest New and Improved Truth.

So pardon me if I call 'Bullshit' on your 'Appeal to Objective Authorities' that are neither authorities nor objective.

 

[elektra]

Matching the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

That is a different point, now you are stating war is inhuman and that we are no better if we defend our lives. Based on that type of thinking we must simply die.

Yes, in order to call Bush and the Iraqi war, unjust, wrong, in order to call Bush evil you must define all aspects of War, as inhuman.

 

[elektra]

The OP is Torture, torture is many things, listening to people define everything the USA does to defend itself is torture. Those people could not win a war nor defend an Ambassador in Benghazi. It is up to the few, to do what you will not. People get to sit behind their TV's and watch what unfolds, relatively safe, while others sacrifice their lives.

It is a God Awful person of zero moral bearing that would deny those who must give their lives of the tools that do save their lives.

Yes, these high and mighty moralists do not care for life, anyone who denies torture is a legitimate tool during warfare is literally fighting against our own men, and now women, who are in combat.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The OP is Torture, torture is many things, listening to people define everything the USA does to defend itself is torture. Those people could not win a war nor defend an Ambassador in Benghazi. It is up to the few, to do what you will not. People get to sit behind their TV's and watch what unfolds, relatively safe, while others sacrifice their lives.

It is a God Awful person of zero moral bearing that would deny those who must give their lives of the tools that do save their lives.

Yes, these high and mighty moralists do not care for life, anyone who denies torture is a legitimate tool during warfare is literally fighting against our own men, and now women, who are in combat.

To Kant, the only true morality was morality that was not self serving or that led one to sacrifice their own interests in order to do the right moral thing.

So the modern educated liberal thinks that allowing our children to be killed in efforts to protect the nonexistent rights of terrorists is the height of moral behavior, even if it is suicidal.

 

[Flopper]

We are no better than people who buy and sell children as sexual slaves? We are no better than those who specifically target a religion? We must allow children to die or we are no better than ISIS.

You are no better than ISIS.

Matching the the inhuman acts of your enemy makes you no better. America is better than that because we are the good guys.

I think the question of whether as a Nation America is better than that is open to debate. I'd like to think and believe we are, but I can think of plenty of instances in which we don't behave as though we are.

Presently, I'm of a mind that America is selectively better than that in practice, but not consistently better. In the abstract, I think we aim to be better than that, but I think everyone else does too.

People seriously need to drop the old Gentleman's view of the world and realize we are not so superior to third world races that we can fight them with one hand tied behind our backs any more.

Yes, there are things we should not do, but the pursuit of moral perfection should never be allowed to become the blocking framework that prevents us from meeting the Requirements to Survive.

We do not need to torture the enemy to survive. It's been said over and over by the CIA, psychologists, the US Senate, and other government agencies and officials, torture is an ineffective method of interrogation. We should not let our desire for revenge, interfere with our goal of winning the fight.

It has been said by *some* government officials, etc that torture is not effective, but then these are people whose jobs depend on the Presidents approval, whose careers are vulnerable to political reprisals and who always seem to parrot what the left finds to be the Latest Greatest New and Improved Truth.

So pardon me if I call 'Bullshit' on your 'Appeal to Objective Authorities' that are neither authorities nor objective.

I would think that the Deputy chief of the CIA's interrogation program should know what he's talking about when he said that waterboarding was ineffective.

When you consider how this enhanced interrogation program came about, it's easy to understand why the CIA screwed up so badly. After 911, the CIA was put under intense pressure from the Bush administration to develop a faster more effective interrogation program. The CIA responded by hiring two clinical psychologist, who had claimed to have experience with enhanced interrogation techniques. Later it was determined that they had no experience and had never been been involved in any interrogation. However, despite their lack of experience and data they produced a report on the risks and effectiveness of a dozen enhanced interrogation methods which the CIA based it's interrogation program. When the shit hit the fan revealing the problems in the program, the Bush administration tried to defend the program and the CIA cooperated.

We spend millions of dollars, countless hours, and risk American lives to capture these people. To risk physical and mental breakdowns that can make them useless when there are proven techniques that work more effectively and with less risk is just plain dumb.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I would think that the Deputy chief of the CIA's interrogation program should know what he's talking about when he said that waterboarding was ineffective.

Yes, one would think that, but then one wouldnt expect anyone to spend millions of USD on research telling them that water is wet either.

Political Correctness demands that everything we can learn through history and common sense be dismissed in an appeal to objective authority that is neither objective nor authoritative. Any prisoner can tell you that when the torture starts most people will tell them anything that they know, and if they dont know anything they will insist on ignorance then finally just start making things up. Interrogators that know what they are doing can sort through the bullshit from the fact, but that obviously doesnt include people who need millions of USD in research to show them how its done.

But that aside, when the tables are turned and we are not looking at the problem from the targets point of view, suddenly all that 'I would sing like a Canary' stuff flies out the window and suddenly the world is full of iron man heroes who will die of pain rather than give up any actionable intell.

Give me a break.

 

[elektra]

Much of the problem is simply that the leftist liberal democrats were not in power hence anything they did not do is wrong. It is all politics, we heard no complaints when Bill Clinton targeted civilian trains with woman and children on board in Serbia, but now every little aspect of War conducted by people who call themselves Republicans, is bad.

It is simple, Democrat is gooood, Republican is baaaad.

 

[Flopper]

I would think that the Deputy chief of the CIA's interrogation program should know what he's talking about when he said that waterboarding was ineffective.

Yes, one would think that, but then one wouldnt expect anyone to spend millions of USD on research telling them that water is wet either.

Political Correctness demands that everything we can learn through history and common sense be dismissed in an appeal to objective authority that is neither objective nor authoritative. Any prisoner can tell you that when the torture starts most people will tell them anything that they know, and if they dont know anything they will insist on ignorance then finally just start making things up. Interrogators that know what they are doing can sort through the bullshit from the fact, but that obviously doesnt include people who need millions of USD in research to show them how its done.

But that aside, when the tables are turned and we are not looking at the problem from the targets point of view, suddenly all that 'I would sing like a Canary' stuff flies out the window and suddenly the world is full of iron man heroes who will die of pain rather than give up any actionable intell.

Give me a break.

Nobody dies of pain from enhanced interrogation. They just start losing their memory and cognitive functions, and bable insistently.

A study published this year by Jane Goodman-Delahunty, of Australia's Charles Sturt University, interviewed 34 interrogators from Australia, Indonesia, and Norway who had handled 30 international terrorism suspects, including potential members of the Sri Lankan extremist group Tamil Tigers and the Norwegian-based Islamist group Ansar al Ismal. Delahunty asked the interrogators what strategies they used to gain information and what the outcomes of each interrogation session were.The winning technique, as BPS Research Digest notes, was immediately clear:

Disclosure was 14 times more likely to occur early in an interrogation when a rapport-building approach was used. Confessions were four times more likely when interrogators struck a neutral and respectful stance. Rates of detainee disclosure were also higher when they were interrogated in comfortable physical settings.

I know this does not satisfy the thirst for revenge, but it does work. Prisoners, particularly when they are isolated have a strong desire to communicate with the interrogator. They want to talk, maybe not revealing any great secrets but once they start talking, a skilled interrogator can extract valuable information.

One thing that was interesting in this study was the prisoners didn't seem to be aware they were being interrogated. Once captured they believed they were going to be mistreated, tortured, and eventually killed by their interrogators. In one case, a prisoner actually asked the interrogator when he was going to be interrogated.

Torture Isn't Just Evil, It's Pointless