CDZ What is Capitalism

[MarathonMike]

Capitalism is as close as you will get to a level playing field in the game of life.

 

[Agit8r]

What is called middle class today, is surprisingly hand-to-mouth. The disposable nature of the bulk of their assets does leave them quite at the mercy of the monied interests, should their plans face any setbacks.

More still, if their liabilities go underwater.

I was not aware that Financial Security is historically common.

At one time, the term "middle class" referred to the capitalists themselves, then it came to refer to the petit bourgeois, and now it has come to refer to a commoner who would have been called "working class" a couple of generations ago. It need hardly be said that the level of financial security has become less with each redefinition.

Really? A Middle Class family today, with two incomes and a house and a underfunded retirement plan has less security than a miner during the Booming Twenties, for example?

A man, one accident away from not being able to work, with no unemployment and no working wife, and no social net and no retirement fund at all? WIth his reserves being some money is a bank with no Federal Insurance?

I think that it DOES NEED "Said".

Your coal minor would be considered a working class.

So, in that time who would have been "MIddle Class" and, as a group, with more security than today's?

I'm not prepared to do an extensive study on the subject, but suffice to say that coal miners were a mistreated people early in this century. Unions had little strength before FDR, and semi-skilled laborers were not considered middle class.

There really should be Redneck Studies courses offered at universities that delve into such things. And I say that without sarcasm.

 

[Agit8r]

What is called middle class today, is surprisingly hand-to-mouth. The disposable nature of the bulk of their assets does leave them quite at the mercy of the monied interests, should their plans face any setbacks.

More still, if their liabilities go underwater.

I was not aware that Financial Security is historically common.

At one time, the term "middle class" referred to the capitalists themselves, then it came to refer to the petit bourgeois, and now it has come to refer to a commoner who would have been called "working class" a couple of generations ago. It need hardly be said that the level of financial security has become less with each redefinition.

Really? A Middle Class family today, with two incomes and a house and a underfunded retirement plan has less security than a miner during the Booming Twenties, for example?

A man, one accident away from not being able to work, with no unemployment and no working wife, and no social net and no retirement fund at all? WIth his reserves being some money is a bank with no Federal Insurance?

I think that it DOES NEED "Said".

Your coal minor would be considered a working class.

Yes. THE MIDDLE CLASS IS the working class.

That is what some would have us believe, but it is political correctness behind that. It isn't historically based.

 

[westwall]

I was not aware that Financial Security is historically common.

At one time, the term "middle class" referred to the capitalists themselves, then it came to refer to the petit bourgeois, and now it has come to refer to a commoner who would have been called "working class" a couple of generations ago. It need hardly be said that the level of financial security has become less with each redefinition.

Really? A Middle Class family today, with two incomes and a house and a underfunded retirement plan has less security than a miner during the Booming Twenties, for example?

A man, one accident away from not being able to work, with no unemployment and no working wife, and no social net and no retirement fund at all? WIth his reserves being some money is a bank with no Federal Insurance?

I think that it DOES NEED "Said".

Your coal minor would be considered a working class.

Yes. THE MIDDLE CLASS IS the working class.

That is what some would have us believe, but it is political correctness behind that. It isn't historically based.

Then, by all means give us the definitions of the various classes that you believe exist. Please include income levels etc.

 

[Agit8r]

At one time, the term "middle class" referred to the capitalists themselves, then it came to refer to the petit bourgeois, and now it has come to refer to a commoner who would have been called "working class" a couple of generations ago. It need hardly be said that the level of financial security has become less with each redefinition.

Really? A Middle Class family today, with two incomes and a house and a underfunded retirement plan has less security than a miner during the Booming Twenties, for example?

A man, one accident away from not being able to work, with no unemployment and no working wife, and no social net and no retirement fund at all? WIth his reserves being some money is a bank with no Federal Insurance?

I think that it DOES NEED "Said".

Your coal minor would be considered a working class.

Yes. THE MIDDLE CLASS IS the working class.

That is what some would have us believe, but it is political correctness behind that. It isn't historically based.

Then, by all means give us the definitions of the various classes that you believe exist. Please include income levels etc.

I'm not going to defend the present definitions. I am noting that they are different than they were in the past, where there was a vast difference between "blue collar" and "white collar" when it came to income. What does one call the worker in the service based economy of today? I call this worker "working class." Others want to flatter, by calling him/her middle class. It's political correctness, or at least pandering. I'm not going to defend it.

 

[Correll]

I was not aware that Financial Security is historically common.

At one time, the term "middle class" referred to the capitalists themselves, then it came to refer to the petit bourgeois, and now it has come to refer to a commoner who would have been called "working class" a couple of generations ago. It need hardly be said that the level of financial security has become less with each redefinition.

Really? A Middle Class family today, with two incomes and a house and a underfunded retirement plan has less security than a miner during the Booming Twenties, for example?

A man, one accident away from not being able to work, with no unemployment and no working wife, and no social net and no retirement fund at all? WIth his reserves being some money is a bank with no Federal Insurance?

I think that it DOES NEED "Said".

Your coal minor would be considered a working class.

So, in that time who would have been "MIddle Class" and, as a group, with more security than today's?

I'm not prepared to do an extensive study on the subject, but suffice to say that coal miners were a mistreated people early in this century. Unions had little strength before FDR, and semi-skilled laborers were not considered middle class.

There really should be Redneck Studies courses offered at universities that delve into such things. And I say that without sarcasm.

Then your point that the current Middle Class has less financial security, than in the past, is unsupported.


That being said, I am well aware of problems affecting the Middle CLass, and indeed, have strong opinions on how the situation can be improved.

BUT that is not a sign of an underlying weakness of Capitalism.

It is a sign that no system, even a good system is perfect.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why can't any of you people look up words in a fucking dictionary?

 

[tinynascarfan]

I consider myself a capitalist. I started out married at 17, washing dishes at a steak house for 3.35 an hour, within 6 months, I moved to a factory and was making 6.50 an hour, a lot of money for the late 80's. I started driving a dump truck in the mid 90's making 9 bucks an hour with a dollar raise after 3 months, and the last hourly job I had, I was driving a tanker making 12.65 an hour, working at least 50 hours a week, and believe me almost 19 dollars an hour, is really good money where I live.

Now if I bring home less than a grand a week, then I had a bad week, but, it's hard work, and I don't get home a lot, as an over the road truck driver.

I started out as a high school drop out, with no college experience, but me and my wife have done alright for ourselves, we own a house(well, we will in another 33k dollars, or 21 years, whichever comes first), I outright own a 98 ford f150 xlt, and a 2002 ford mustang, I have an extensive comic book collection(over 20k), a john deer lawnmower in my garage, a good washer and dryer, refridgerator, dishwasher and stove. A central heating and air system, and about 3/4 of an acre inside the town limits.

Hard work, that can get you out of poverty in a capitalist society. Hard work and not settling for just getting by.

 

[sakinago]

A mixture of capitalism and communism is the way to go.

Well, that would be called China, at least to the extent China can rightly be seen as still aiming to arrive at communism.

Mind you, if you spend much time in China, you'll find there's a lot to like about it. I can't say much about the political process there, but living there is quite a pleasurable experience, at least I find it so. I say that only to note that living under/in an environment like one of China's enterprise zones.

And China is the modern day form of slavery.

I am in the PRC weekly. I have multiple clients there, and I've been to their factories, their "company towns," the big cities, etc. I have a translator who accompanies most of the time. I have had numerous conversations about working conditions in the PRC. I can assure you that what they have going on, though in some places dissimilar to what we observe in the U.S. is not at all slavery of any type. So, please, let's dispense with the inflammatory/morality metaphors, or at the very least, I ask that you reserve them for your discourse with other members.

I say that because china can manipulate it's currency on a whim. It shuts out any discourse with the government online. It throws people in prison for displaying a cross. You are not allowed to have an individual published idea. It gives the people just enough to stop them from rioting, and displays a large enough police state to further discourage that. They are very effective at displaying the carrot and stick. It may not be real slavery like we see in the Middle East, but those people are far from free

 

[tinynascarfan]

A mixture of capitalism and communism is the way to go.

Well, that would be called China, at least to the extent China can rightly be seen as still aiming to arrive at communism.

Mind you, if you spend much time in China, you'll find there's a lot to like about it. I can't say much about the political process there, but living there is quite a pleasurable experience, at least I find it so. I say that only to note that living under/in an environment like one of China's enterprise zones.

And China is the modern day form of slavery.

I am in the PRC weekly. I have multiple clients there, and I've been to their factories, their "company towns," the big cities, etc. I have a translator who accompanies most of the time. I have had numerous conversations about working conditions in the PRC. I can assure you that what they have going on, though in some places dissimilar to what we observe in the U.S. is not at all slavery of any type. So, please, let's dispense with the inflammatory/morality metaphors, or at the very least, I ask that you reserve them for your discourse with other members.

I say that because china can manipulate it's currency on a whim. It shuts out any discourse with the government online. It throws people in prison for displaying a cross. You are not allowed to have an individual published idea. It gives the people just enough to stop them from rioting, and displays a large enough police state to further discourage that. They are very effective at displaying the carrot and stick. It may not be real slavery like we see in the Middle East, but those people are far from free

Most people in this generation, has never had to fight for freedom, I don't mean fighting racism, or fighting for your rights, I mean an actual gun in your hand and one in your enemies hand, and somebody is going to die, kind of fight, for freedom for this country.

The last to do that, was those who fought in WWII, from Korea on, we have been the worlds freedom fighters, and we have forgotten what it means to have to fight for what we consider "freedom."

 

[Asclepias]

It's a nice theory. History shows it to be as impracticable as it's "opposite" --communism.

No, HIstory shows that Capitalism kicks ass and produces vast wealth.

This is true. It makes a few wealthy beyond belief and kicks the ass of the masses

Untrue. Prior to capitalism there was no middle class. There were the poor and the elite. The middle class owes its very existence to capitalism.

There is no middle class. Thats just a label they made up to convince you to keep working and buying their products. Its all part of the keeping up with the Jones mentality. if you are not wealthy then you are poor. If you dont believe me try paying for your home without a job.

What? You have no will of your own? You are not capable of saying "I don't need that new TV?" Just wondering when personal responsibility kicks in or are all of you just infants with no will of your own?

My will isnt the issue. The issue is if a supposed middle class person is unable to produce income then they will see how quickly they are really just a better off poor person. True wealth is the ability to own income producing assets without having to work.

 

[Asclepias]

And they are why, slowly, every farmer is becoming a slave.

I can agree with you there too actually, but GMOs still have feed an insurmountable amount of starving children across the globe. More so than we could do before. And they have also kept many farmers in business, by keeping a steady stream of production despite unfavorable weather conditions that would have put them through some hard times

I think your attributing altruistic reasons where they arent really existing. If they were giving away the food I could see your point but in actuality they are just making money off starving kids. More marketing. No one stops to ask what are the results of those GMO in other countries. A population that cant feed itself and therefore dependent on the large corporations for more goods. Later down the road they are now a fresh market of consumers. Which oddly enough makes the corporations wealthier.

A. We are giving away A LOT of it
B. capitalism is a system where you increase wealth by providing a SERVICE to others at a price they deem worthy.

No someone is buying it and giving it away. The people that are benefiting financially are not giving it away.
I know what capitalism is.

So companies are not capable of charity?

And I'm not sure what the alternative would be to that. Work and give all your production away for nothing?

Yes there are plenty of companies that do charity. Its a wonderful tax write off.

There is no alternative. Thats why I said its not altruistic. If they gave away all their production and didnt earn any money then that would be dumb. However, its never really as binary an argument as people always attempt to make it.

 

[Asclepias]

What do you mean communism and technology dont mix. I helped set up a city that has free wifi everywhere you go.

Communism calls for banishment of currency and non essentials.
A city with free wifi isn't communism lol

A city with free wifi is definitely communism. Its a service owned by the "state" for the benefit of the people.

Ever hear of socialism?
Communism, in its purest form, is stateless.

Yes. I have heard of socialism. Thats a pretty cool system.

No communism is not stateless.
communism

"
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization oflabor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarianparty holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally sharedby the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

 

[TNHarley]

Communism calls for banishment of currency and non essentials.
A city with free wifi isn't communism lol

A city with free wifi is definitely communism. Its a service owned by the "state" for the benefit of the people.

Ever hear of socialism?
Communism, in its purest form, is stateless.

Yes. I have heard of socialism. Thats a pretty cool system.

No communism is not stateless.
communism

"
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization oflabor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarianparty holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally sharedby the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

 

[Asclepias]

I consider myself a capitalist. I started out married at 17, washing dishes at a steak house for 3.35 an hour, within 6 months, I moved to a factory and was making 6.50 an hour, a lot of money for the late 80's. I started driving a dump truck in the mid 90's making 9 bucks an hour with a dollar raise after 3 months, and the last hourly job I had, I was driving a tanker making 12.65 an hour, working at least 50 hours a week, and believe me almost 19 dollars an hour, is really good money where I live.

Now if I bring home less than a grand a week, then I had a bad week, but, it's hard work, and I don't get home a lot, as an over the road truck driver.

I started out as a high school drop out, with no college experience, but me and my wife have done alright for ourselves, we own a house(well, we will in another 33k dollars, or 21 years, whichever comes first), I outright own a 98 ford f150 xlt, and a 2002 ford mustang, I have an extensive comic book collection(over 20k), a john deer lawnmower in my garage, a good washer and dryer, refridgerator, dishwasher and stove. A central heating and air system, and about 3/4 of an acre inside the town limits.

Hard work, that can get you out of poverty in a capitalist society. Hard work and not settling for just getting by.

Thats not a capitalist. While admirable, thats really a worker. Wealth is measured in time. Specifically the time you have where you would have no drop off in your current lifestyle without you personally bringing in some income. In order to do that you need to own income producing assets.

 

[Asclepias]

A city with free wifi is definitely communism. Its a service owned by the "state" for the benefit of the people.

Ever hear of socialism?
Communism, in its purest form, is stateless.

Yes. I have heard of socialism. Thats a pretty cool system.

No communism is not stateless.
communism

"
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization oflabor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarianparty holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally sharedby the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

How can you wither away a state if its not there as you claimed?

 

[TNHarley]

Ever hear of socialism?
Communism, in its purest form, is stateless.

Yes. I have heard of socialism. Thats a pretty cool system.

No communism is not stateless.
communism

"
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization oflabor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarianparty holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally sharedby the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

How can you wither away a state if its not there as you claimed?

omg... PUREST FORM

 

[Asclepias]

Yes. I have heard of socialism. Thats a pretty cool system.

No communism is not stateless.
communism

"
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization oflabor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarianparty holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally sharedby the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

How can you wither away a state if its not there as you claimed?

omg... PUREST FORM

In its purest form of communism the government or "state" owns everything. There has never been a stateless society in the history of the world.

 

[TNHarley]

Maybe you should read B again

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

How can you wither away a state if its not there as you claimed?

omg... PUREST FORM

In its purest form of communism the government or "state" owns everything. There has never been a stateless society in the history of the world.

There hasnt been a communist society either.
There is no state. The proletarians take over the "state" which will wither away. Read some of Marx and engels work and try to actually understand what you are talking about

 

[Asclepias]

Maybe you should simply read. I even bolded it for you.

The Marxist-Leninist doctrine advocating revolution to overthrow the capitalist system and establish adictatorship of the proletariat that will eventually evolve into a perfectly egalitarian and communal society."
Do you know what a proletariat is?
Like I said earlier, google "withering away of the state"

How can you wither away a state if its not there as you claimed?

omg... PUREST FORM

In its purest form of communism the government or "state" owns everything. There has never been a stateless society in the history of the world.

There hasnt been a communist society either.
There is no state. The proletarians take over the "state" which will wither away. Read some of Marx and engels work and try to actually understand what you are talking about

I guess you, Marx, and Engels, didnt realize that the proletarians taking over the state doesnt make the state disappear. It just makes them in charge of the state.