What is a human right?

[Foxfyre]

Nothing wrong with that. Afterall, it's pretty easy to bias just about any "research" project to deliver a desired conclusion. I think it was Twain that said there's lies, damn lies and statistics. Why so many people are willing to dismiss what they observe for themselves in everyday experiences just because some agenda driven Harvard egghead says something contrary is something I'll never understand. The next female math wiz I encounter will be the first. Just sayin.

There are exceptions. My daughter is better at math than any of us but she also has the highest IQ by far. My son needed tutors to get through some of the advanced math to earn his engineering degree, but he got there. And of the two he is the one with the better vision to see how things work together and/or envision a device to make something work.

It is understandable that women drawn to advanced math classes will have high aptitude in math. It is also understandable that most women do not have high aptitude in advanced math and are not drawn to advanced math classes. For a study to assume that women in such classes excel as well as men is probably valid. It does not extrapolate into most women being as good as men in advanced math, however.

You can go down the line dealing with all other subjects as well and will probably find that more men than women excel in some; more women than men excel in others. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that which I can see.

 

[Ravi]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that which I can see.

There's nothing wrong with it unless it is only true because of nurture. There is some evidence that telling people they suck at something makes them suck at it. So each time you repeat the stereotype that this group sucks at this subject you enable people to quit trying.

 

[Foxfyre]

There's nothing wrong with it unless it is only true because of nurture. There is some evidence that telling people they suck at something makes them suck at it. So each time you repeat the stereotype that this group sucks at this subject you enable people to quit trying.

Not at all. Far better to acknowledge realities than to perpetuate myths that only frustrate people and actually set them up for failure. I raised my kids, one boy and one girl, to believe that they could do anything and encouraged them to try just about everything. They selected quite different paths, however and while both are doing wonderfully in their professional careers, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses and they accept that as okay. Women who have no interest in advanced math or men who have little aptitude for verbal expression--why do all political candidates hire speech writers?--can either be made to feel inadequate in those areas or they can understand that men and women overall--individual exceptions allowed--are wired differently and it is okay to feel and perceive our world differently than does the other guy.

All one needs to do to observe very inate differences between the sexes is to watch children at play. Little boys playing with cars all make motor noises. Little girls playing with cars don't. It can be things as simple as that to illustrate that God made the genders different and that is absolutely A-okay.

 

[Ravi]

Not at all. Far better to acknowledge realities than to perpetuate myths that only frustrate people and actually set them up for failure. I raised my kids, one boy and one girl, to believe that they could do anything and encouraged them to try just about everything. They selected quite different paths, however and while both are doing wonderfully in their professional careers, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses and they accept that as okay. Women who have no interest in advanced math or men who have little aptitude for verbal expression--why do all political candidates hire speech writers?--can either be made to feel inadequate in those areas or they can understand that men and women overall--individual exceptions allowed--are wired differently and it is okay to feel and perceive our world differently than does the other guy.

All one needs to do to observe very inate differences between the sexes is to watch children at play. Little boys playing with cars all make motor noises. Little girls playing with cars don't. It can be things as simple as that to illustrate that God made the genders different and that is absolutely A-okay.

I'm not sure why you are equating making motor noises with math skills. The fact is that the more you practice a skill, be it math, writing, or olympic skiing, the better you become at it if you have the slightest aptitude for it at all. I didn't say people should be made to feel inadequate for a lack of aptitude. I said telling them they are inadequate is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not sure why you are equating making motor noises with math skills. The fact is that the more you practice a skill, be it math, writing, or olympic skiing, the better you become at it if you have the slightest aptitude for it at all. I didn't say people should be made to feel inadequate for a lack of aptitude. I said telling them they are inadequate is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I didn't equate motor noises with math skills. I used that for an illustration of inate differences any observant adult can see in children if they just pay attention. I would never tell any student that he or she can't do something--I thought I made that pretty clear--but for the young woman who simply lacks the inate aptitude to do advanced math and falls behind, does it do more for her self esteem to think she is stupid? Or perhaps she might be reassured to know that many if not most women do not possess particular aptitude to do advanced math; that this is ingrained in the wiring. However she certainly does have significant aptitude elsewhere.

Likewise the young man who lacks the aptitude for quick and efficient verbal skills in situations requiring these, while many if not most women will excel in that department, can be reassured to know that many if not most men are not as good at verbal skills as are most women.

In neither case do we assume that all women will lack aptitude for advance math or that all men will have such skills. Nor do we assume that all men will lack advanced verbal skills or that all women will have such skills.

As I teach some of this stuff at a certain level, I long ago recognized limitations that I was born with and have come to comfortably accept them and no longer assume that I'm inept or stupid because I can't do some things better than or as easily as other people do them. And there are things that I also excel at, virtually effortlessly, when other people find those things difficult or impossible.

There is nothing wrong with men and women understanding that there are inate differences between the sexes that will permeate all aspects of our lives and that this is okay. It does not make one better than the other. If anything, it reinforces the idea that we all need each other to compensate for our weaknesses and we should all affirm each other in our individual strengths.

 

[Ravi]

Or perhaps she might be reassured to know that many if not most women do not possess particular aptitude to do advanced math; that this is ingrained in the wiring. Prove it. Your own personal observation of your own children proves you wrong. I've asked you several times to show me how this is true and all you've come up with is something rattling around in your head and that God created boys and girls differently.

Men aren't good at verbal skills? That's another urban myth. Feel free to offer proof of that as well.

And once again, I didn't say to make someone feel inadequate, or as you put it this time, stupid. I said to do just the opposite.

 

[Diuretic]

Nothing wrong with that. Afterall, it's pretty easy to bias just about any "research" project to deliver a desired conclusion. I think it was Twain that said there's lies, damn lies and statistics. Why so many people are willing to dismiss what they observe for themselves in everyday experiences just because some agenda driven Harvard egghead says something contrary is something I'll never understand. The next female math wiz I encounter will be the first. Just sayin.

I think the first one to pronounce on statistics was Disraeli but there's a fifty-fifty chance it was Twain (okay sorry, bad joke).

I think too many of us have out-sourced our personal research work to external experts. When we're confronted with something that's obvious from our own experience we find ourselves looking to an external authority for validation. In my experience some males are as Foxfyre says and in my experience some female are as I say. If I'm asked for an external validation on that I shall politely decline. I know what I know

 

[Ravi]

I think the first one to pronounce on statistics was Disraeli but there's a fifty-fifty chance it was Twain (okay sorry, bad joke).

I think too many of us have out-sourced our personal research work to external experts. When we're confronted with something that's obvious from our own experience we find ourselves looking to an external authority for validation. In my experience some males are as Foxfyre says and in my experience some female are as I say. If I'm asked for an external validation on that I shall politely decline. I know what I know

You must be a woman because your verbal skills are excellent.

 

[Foxfyre]

Or perhaps she might be reassured to know that many if not most women do not possess particular aptitude to do advanced math; that this is ingrained in the wiring. Prove it. Your own personal observation of your own children proves you wrong. I've asked you several times to show me how this is true and all you've come up with is something rattling around in your head and that God created boys and girls differently.

Men aren't good at verbal skills? That's another urban myth. Feel free to offer proof of that as well.

And once again, I didn't say to make someone feel inadequate, or as you put it this time, stupid. I said to do just the opposite.

What would you consider to be proof? Have you had different observations? Can you prove those?

Did I say men aren't good at verbal skills? If so please point out where I said that.

Did I say that you said to make someone feel inadequate - or stupid? Please show where I said that too.

 

[Ravi]

What would you consider to be proof? Have you had different observations? Can you prove those?

Did I say men aren't good at verbal skills? If so please point out where I said that.

Did I say that you said to make someone feel inadequate - or stupid? Please show where I said that too.

No, I can't prove it. That's exactly the point. You can claim anything you want but if you want to be taken seriously you'll have to offer some evidence. Somewhere on this thread someone posted a link to evidence to the contrary of your personal deductions and you ignored it.

 

[manifold]

No, I can't prove it. That's exactly the point. You can claim anything you want but if you want to be taken seriously you'll have to offer some evidence. Somewhere on this thread someone posted a link to evidence to the contrary of your personal deductions and you ignored it.

I can post a link to a site with evidence that the world is flat. Doesn't make it true.

 

[Ravi]

I can post a link to a site with evidence that the world is flat. Doesn't make it true.

True. But you anti-logic people will believe it anyway.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, I can't prove it. That's exactly the point. You can claim anything you want but if you want to be taken seriously you'll have to offer some evidence. Somewhere on this thread someone posted a link to evidence to the contrary of your personal deductions and you ignored it.

No I didn't ignore it. I in fact commented on why I didn't buy it, as did several others who provided what I thought was suitable response to it. You are ignoring my questions, however.

 

[Ravi]

No I didn't ignore it. I in fact commented on why I didn't buy it, as did several others who provided what I thought was suitable response to it. You are ignoring my questions, however.

You're right, I am ignoring your questions. I'm sorry I allowed myself to get distracted. I was interested in knowing if you had any evidence to back up your claim about math abilities in men and women and I should have just accepted that you did not beyond your own thoughts.

Sorry for wasting your time and mine.

 

[LOki]

Rights are moral principles upon which our freedom of action is sanctioned within a social, or societal, context. Rights are non-contradictory entitlements, contracts, or agreements to these actions, regarding the relationship of mutual existence between individuals--IOW, rights refer to actions, not things; a "right" is not a right if it violates another's rights; and the recogintion/validity of the entitlements, contracts, or agreements must be reciprocal. In the case of human rights, those agreements are between humans (for there is no relevence for rights outside the context of human interactions), and they neccessarily refer to actions that establish and promote human lives <i>as</i> human beings. The only real qualifier for claiming possession of human rights is the ability to claim you are human. For humans, being human is a condition of our existence; when a right is conditional only upon existence, that right is a primary, or "natural", right. Since you must make your own choices in order to exist as a human being, the basic requirement for your life is the freedom to make the best of, and act upon, your own independent judgment, consistent with your own rational self-interest. You cannot live as a human being otherwise, so the right to your own life, independent of the unjust claims of others, is the primary, or "natural", human right.

Other rights, consistent with the notion of rights, derived from this primary right, and appurtenant to it, are also human rights.

 

[Diuretic]

You must be a woman because your verbal skills are excellent.

My verbal skills are not as good as my writing skills (that sounds like I'm a big-head, I don't think I am though).

I'm a bloke. My beer drinking skills outweigh even my writing skills

 

[Foxfyre]

You're right, I am ignoring your questions. I'm sorry I allowed myself to get distracted. I was interested in knowing if you had any evidence to back up your claim about math abilities in men and women and I should have just accepted that you did not beyond your own thoughts.

Sorry for wasting your time and mine.

If you had actually read my posts, you would have seen that my opinion we math abilities in men and women is based on quite a bit beyond my own thoughts. I could post a lot of links of authorities holding similar opinions and you could certainly find more academic sites disputing my opinion--it is a quite politically incorrect opinion I know.

 

[Foxfyre]

My verbal skills are not as good as my writing skills (that sounds like I'm a big-head, I don't think I am though).

I'm a bloke. My beer drinking skills outweigh even my writing skills

Writing skills and verbal skills are pretty much different things. Most women will expend almost five times as many words to express a thought as will most men. Yet in writing, they can be quite similar making me conclude that gender does not particularly affect writing skills other than in probable content. Men will write about the tactical and mechanical aspects of a tank, for instance, while a woman is more likely to write more in detail about how it sounds, how it looks, how it makes the ground tremble as it approaches, etc.

 

[Diuretic]

Writing skills and verbal skills are pretty much different things. Most women will expend almost five times as many words to express a thought as will most men. Yet in writing, they can be quite similar making me conclude that gender does not particularly affect writing skills other than in probable content. Men will write about the tactical and mechanical aspects of a tank, for instance, while a woman is more likely to write more in detail about how it sounds, how it looks, how it makes the ground tremble as it approaches, etc.

That makes me think about any link between gender and learning preferences. My learning preference - using various instruments - always comes up as being visual (preferably written). I much preferred reading assignments over lectures for example. I still prefer reading and I'll eschew (if possible) multimedia (in particular solely audio) methods.

 

[midcan5]

What do you know, I believed that there were differences as the thread claimed and yet I found this...

Stop being an arrogant idiot. I asked a teacher, a woman, the question, that wasn't my take on it.