What does Jesus think of the warmongering of the United States?

[Lonestar_logic]

I still didn't see anything in there that supported anything even somewhat related to the wars of the United States.

Yeah you found your quote about carrying swords, where does it say to use it in any way?

That's because I wasn't talking about wars of the United States. I simply commented on the fact that Jesus instructed some of his followers to sell their cloaks and buy swords.

Jesus said it is inevitable that wars will continue until He returns, Mark 13:7-8.

"When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. This is but the beginning of the birth pangs."

And He did not oppose earthly governments or their right to maintain armies, Matthew 8:5-10
"When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress." And he said to him, "I will come and cure him." The centurion answered, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this,' and the slave does it." When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, "Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith."

Again still none of those quotes have anything to do with showing how Jesus would favor our current collection of wars.

The quotes that show he's against it in principle are easy to find, takes a lot of twisting and spin to make it sound like he's for it.

War is unfavorable to almost everyone. Jesus is no different. However, Jesus acknowledges that wars will continue. And they will.

Where are your quotes?

 

[Dr.Drock]

That's because I wasn't talking about wars of the United States. I simply commented on the fact that Jesus instructed some of his followers to sell their cloaks and buy swords.

Jesus said it is inevitable that wars will continue until He returns, Mark 13:7-8.

"When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. This is but the beginning of the birth pangs."

And He did not oppose earthly governments or their right to maintain armies, Matthew 8:5-10
"When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress." And he said to him, "I will come and cure him." The centurion answered, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this,' and the slave does it." When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, "Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith."

Again still none of those quotes have anything to do with showing how Jesus would favor our current collection of wars.

The quotes that show he's against it in principle are easy to find, takes a lot of twisting and spin to make it sound like he's for it.

War is unfavorable to almost everyone. Jesus is no different. However, Jesus acknowledges that wars will continue. And they will.

Where are your quotes?

Click on page 1 of the thread and scroll to the top, that's where the quotes are.

Acknowledging and thinking highly of, approving, accepting or being in favor are 2 ENTIRELY different things.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Again still none of those quotes have anything to do with showing how Jesus would favor our current collection of wars.

The quotes that show he's against it in principle are easy to find, takes a lot of twisting and spin to make it sound like he's for it.

War is unfavorable to almost everyone. Jesus is no different. However, Jesus acknowledges that wars will continue. And they will.

Where are your quotes?

Click on page 1 of the thread and scroll to the top, that's where the quotes are.

Acknowledging and thinking highly of, approving, accepting or being in favor are 2 ENTIRELY different things.

Well Jesus accepted the fact that wars will continue.

 

[Dr.Drock]

War is unfavorable to almost everyone. Jesus is no different. However, Jesus acknowledges that wars will continue. And they will.

Where are your quotes?

Click on page 1 of the thread and scroll to the top, that's where the quotes are.

Acknowledging and thinking highly of, approving, accepting or being in favor are 2 ENTIRELY different things.

Well Jesus accepted the fact that wars will continue.

Yes he accepted the fact that something he was against completely would go on, I agree.

War is a natural component of humanity, it's probably our biggest flaw as a species.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Click on page 1 of the thread and scroll to the top, that's where the quotes are.

Acknowledging and thinking highly of, approving, accepting or being in favor are 2 ENTIRELY different things.

Well Jesus accepted the fact that wars will continue.

Yes he accepted the fact that something he was against completely would go on, I agree.

War is a natural component of humanity, it's probably our biggest flaw as a species.

He's never said he was against war.

The Bible is quite clear about Christians obeying the laws of man as long as they do not conflict with God's higher laws.

Romans 13:1-2 tell us to be in subjection to the superior authorities even as we are to God. Further, we are to be in relative subjection to kings and governors as they have their positions due to God's allowance 1Peter 2:13-17.

Your view that Jesus wants us all to be pacifist is misguided. Allowing someone to murder is contrary to a Christians moral sentiment. If a Hitler is on the move and seeking to bind the world in tyranny and destroy entire ethnic groups, it would seem very clearly wrong not to oppose him with force.

It is true that war itself is harmful and tragic; but pacifism would result in even more harm to the world because it would give wicked people virtually free reign.

Luke 3:14 allows military service.

It is significant that John the Baptist did not tell the soldiers to leave the military when they asked him what it meant to repent: "And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And he said to them, 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages'" (Luke 3:14). Since it is, therefore, possible to live a godly life and yet be in the military, it must be because engaging in war is not always sinful.

John 18:36 acknowledges the right of the sword to earthly kingdoms.

In this passage, Jesus says: "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." When Jesus says that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would be fighting, he implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. As Christians, we are citizens of "two kingdoms"--our country on earth, and heaven. Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil.

Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Here Paul affirms the government's right to use force in two ways. First, he says that it "does not bear the sword for nothing." Second, he states that government is a "minister of God" when it executes vengeance against evildoers.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Well Jesus accepted the fact that wars will continue.

Yes he accepted the fact that something he was against completely would go on, I agree.

War is a natural component of humanity, it's probably our biggest flaw as a species.

He's never said he was against war.

The Bible is quite clear about Christians obeying the laws of man as long as they do not conflict with God's higher laws.

Romans 13:1-2 tell us to be in subjection to the superior authorities even as we are to God. Further, we are to be in relative subjection to kings and governors as they have their positions due to God's allowance 1Peter 2:13-17.

Your view that Jesus wants us all to be pacifist is misguided. Allowing someone to murder is contrary to a Christians moral sentiment. If a Hitler is on the move and seeking to bind the world in tyranny and destroy entire ethnic groups, it would seem very clearly wrong not to oppose him with force.

It is true that war itself is harmful and tragic; but pacifism would result in even more harm to the world because it would give wicked people virtually free reign.

Luke 3:14 allows military service.

It is significant that John the Baptist did not tell the soldiers to leave the military when they asked him what it meant to repent: "And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And he said to them, 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages'" (Luke 3:14). Since it is, therefore, possible to live a godly life and yet be in the military, it must be because engaging in war is not always sinful.

John 18:36 acknowledges the right of the sword to earthly kingdoms.

In this passage, Jesus says: "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." When Jesus says that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would be fighting, he implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. As Christians, we are citizens of "two kingdoms"--our country on earth, and heaven. Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil.

Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Here Paul affirms the government's right to use force in two ways. First, he says that it "does not bear the sword for nothing." Second, he states that government is a "minister of God" when it executes vengeance against evildoers.

I'm not going through this song and dance again, my quotes clearly show that he's against the things that go on during war, but doesn't use the word war specifically.

Have a good one.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes he accepted the fact that something he was against completely would go on, I agree.

War is a natural component of humanity, it's probably our biggest flaw as a species.

He's never said he was against war.

The Bible is quite clear about Christians obeying the laws of man as long as they do not conflict with God's higher laws.

Romans 13:1-2 tell us to be in subjection to the superior authorities even as we are to God. Further, we are to be in relative subjection to kings and governors as they have their positions due to God's allowance 1Peter 2:13-17.

Your view that Jesus wants us all to be pacifist is misguided. Allowing someone to murder is contrary to a Christians moral sentiment. If a Hitler is on the move and seeking to bind the world in tyranny and destroy entire ethnic groups, it would seem very clearly wrong not to oppose him with force.

It is true that war itself is harmful and tragic; but pacifism would result in even more harm to the world because it would give wicked people virtually free reign.

Luke 3:14 allows military service.

It is significant that John the Baptist did not tell the soldiers to leave the military when they asked him what it meant to repent: "And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And he said to them, 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages'" (Luke 3:14). Since it is, therefore, possible to live a godly life and yet be in the military, it must be because engaging in war is not always sinful.

John 18:36 acknowledges the right of the sword to earthly kingdoms.

In this passage, Jesus says: "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." When Jesus says that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would be fighting, he implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. As Christians, we are citizens of "two kingdoms"--our country on earth, and heaven. Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil.

Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Here Paul affirms the government's right to use force in two ways. First, he says that it "does not bear the sword for nothing." Second, he states that government is a "minister of God" when it executes vengeance against evildoers.

I'm not going through this song and dance again, my quotes clearly show that he's against the things that go on during war, but doesn't use the word war specifically.

Have a good one.

Exactly it doesn't address war so you can't honestly say that Jesus was against war.

My quotes on the matter specifially states that the government has the right to use force to restrain and punish evil.

In 1 Peter 2:13-14, we are taught: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right." Once again, the right of governments to punish evil is affirmed.

The church is not to use violence (John 18:36), but the government at times may (John 18:36; Romans 13:3-4; etc.).

Jesus himself drove thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15). That kind of goes against the "turn the other cheek" mantra. The problem is not that Jesus appears to be telling us to lie down and let evil overtake us. That is clearly not what he is saying. Instead, he is telling us what it looks like "not to be overcome by evil, but to overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21).

 

[Steelplate]

Here is Luke 22 in it's entirety..... I have bolded the quote in question... but I have also bolded another quote that pretty much directly contradicts the first....

Luke 22
Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus
1 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
The Last Supper
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.

10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.”

13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!” 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.
Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45 When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”
Jesus Arrested
47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”
Peter Disowns Jesus
54 Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55 And when some there had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56 A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.”

57 But he denied it. “Woman, I don’t know him,” he said.

58 A little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.”

“Man, I am not!” Peter replied.

59 About an hour later another asserted, “Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean.”

60 Peter replied, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!” Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed. 61 The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times.” 62 And he went outside and wept bitterly.
The Guards Mock Jesus
63 The men who were guarding Jesus began mocking and beating him. 64 They blindfolded him and demanded, “Prophesy! Who hit you?” 65 And they said many other insulting things to him.
Jesus Before Pilate and Herod
66 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and the teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67 “If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.”

Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68 and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”

70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”

He replied, “You say that I am.”

71 Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”

 

[Steelplate]

THe point is....While the suggestion that the disciples buy swords is vague... Jesus' action in the garden speaks volumes.

We choose to see what we want to see.

 

[Wingsofwind]

I wouldn't venture to say what stance Christ has on the wars we have today. Christ was not of the world and the wars we have today are of the world.

If you look at the life of Christ, you will see he made no effort to get into politics or make stands on any issue related to politics. He only gave instructions on how an individual should live, not what a country should do or not do.

 

[sparky]

 

[Wingsofwind]

Cite bible verse please.

I also seem to remember Him telling people that they couldn't follow Him unless they gave up all their possessions.

Somewhere in the Gospel of Luke. Chapter 22 I believe.

Jesus actually said that you must decide if you can leave everything you have to follow Him. If you cannot then you can't be His follower. He also said "If a person comes to me, but will not leave his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters, then that person cannot be my follower."

You must read the entire text to understand the context. It's also in the Gospel of Luke.

This may not be good enough, but I just read a summary of the Gospel of Luke and I still didn't see anything that would make it seem like Jesus was ok with war.

Lonestar only mentioned that Jesus was okay with us protecting ourselves. War is one way a country protects it's self.

However, I do not know enough about the wars we are having now to know if it is for protection or other political reasons or even both. So I would not say whether or not Christ would approve or not.

 

[Dr.Drock]

THe point is....While the suggestion that the disciples buy swords is vague... Jesus' action in the garden speaks volumes.

We choose to see what we want to see.

Looks like to me the story is saying buy the sword in hopes people won't attack you because you have one, but if you are attacked it's wrong to use it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

THe point is....While the suggestion that the disciples buy swords is vague... Jesus' action in the garden speaks volumes.

We choose to see what we want to see.

Looks like to me the story is saying buy the sword in hopes people won't attack you because you have one, but if you are attacked it's wrong to use it.

That's like having an unloaded gun. What good is having a sword if you're not willing to use it?

 

[Dr.Drock]

THe point is....While the suggestion that the disciples buy swords is vague... Jesus' action in the garden speaks volumes.

We choose to see what we want to see.

Looks like to me the story is saying buy the sword in hopes people won't attack you because you have one, but if you are attacked it's wrong to use it.

That's like having an unloaded gun. What good is having a sword if you're not willing to use it?

What good is a sword if when you use it you'll be condemned by Jesus and he'll heal the person you used it against?

Intimidation of course, the same thing an unloaded gun is good for.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Looks like to me the story is saying buy the sword in hopes people won't attack you because you have one, but if you are attacked it's wrong to use it.

That's like having an unloaded gun. What good is having a sword if you're not willing to use it?

What good is a sword if when you use it you'll be condemned by Jesus and he'll heal the person you used it against?

Intimidation of course, the same thing an unloaded gun is good for.

If Jesus would have allowed the apostle to rescue Him from arrest, prophecy would not have been fulfilled. Jesus healed the ear to show that he was indeed the Messiah. Remember they were arresting Him for saying He was something ( the Messiah) that they knew he wasn't.

Pull an unloaded gun on a person and hope and pray he doesn't possess a loaded one. Or pray he doesn't make you eat your unloaded gun.

 

[Dr.Drock]

That's like having an unloaded gun. What good is having a sword if you're not willing to use it?

What good is a sword if when you use it you'll be condemned by Jesus and he'll heal the person you used it against?

Intimidation of course, the same thing an unloaded gun is good for.

If Jesus would have allowed the apostle to rescue Him from arrest, prophecy would not have been fulfilled. Jesus healed the ear to show that he was indeed the Messiah. Remember they were arresting Him for saying He was something ( the Messiah) that they knew he wasn't.

Pull an unloaded gun on a person and hope and pray he doesn't possess a loaded one. Or pray he doesn't make you eat your unloaded gun.

I see so in your view what you got from that passage was that Jesus had NO PROBLEM with the man using the sword against the other man and did it 100% ENTIRELY to show he was the Messiah and no other reason?

 

[TheBrain]

I think Jesus helped that SEAL aim.

 

[hortysir]

Next time I talk to Him, I'll ask Him


To wish the death of someone you have already committed murder in your heart

 

[TheBrain]

Next time I talk to Him, I'll ask Him


To wish the death of someone you have already committed murder in your heart

I'll be frank. I am not proud that I am glad the sumbitch is dead; but I AM glad he's dead.