Virginity (saving oneself for marriage)

[Delia]

Okay, I've thought about it overnight and considered the changing 'normal' in our American culture. In my lifetime I have seen us go from a norm of only the trashiest and immoral people would live together without benefit of marriage to cohabitation before marriage being the cultural norm by something between 50 and 60%.

In the same length of time, the cultural norm has gone from 'save it for marriage' to be sure you have a condom in your purse or pocket at all times just in case. Sex before marriage no longer tars somebody as a 'playboy' or 'loose woman' and living together is no longer considered a character flaw.

The upside to all that is the vanished 'scarlet letter' and much less negative side of shame.

The downside is a huge increase in STDs, many more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, a huge increase in single parents with resulting increased negative statistics of child poverty and other problems, a huge increase in divorce, higher incidence of domestic violence, and women being 'used' and then discarded by men who will tell them anything just to acquire a warm place to put it for awhile.

I haven't looked them up lately, but I recall reading statistics that living together before marriage actually increases the probability of divorce after marriage, probably because the relation starts off with no clear commitment to each other. Also among both men and women, those who are promiscuous before marriage are less likely to be faithful after marriage and for most people, that one is a biggie when it comes to the qualities that make for good marriages.

And of course there are those who are just as convinced that the opposite of the statistics is the real truth.

I counsel young people to at least commit to a ring and a date before having sex. And the vast majority of those who do that go on to get married and from all indications are enjoying happy marriages that will last.

I actually just looked some of this stuff up and you might be surprised at some of the numbers floating around (although, of course, their accuracy is always a question).

Cohabitation before marriage may depend on where you live. One site had those who live together before marriage in the US and UK being more likely to divorce, but those who do it in France and Germany being less likely. That would seem to indicate more to the issue than just living together.

There was a site which said that 3% of Americans currently save themselves for marriage. The same site (which was based on saving yourself for marriage, if it matters) had people in the 1950s saving themselves at an 11% rate. While a much higher percentage than today, that's still 89% of people in the 50s having premarital sex. That would indicate that, while people may have preached the values of saving yourself for marriage more in the past, they did not practice what they preached all that often.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research in this vein, or at least not easily accessible research (unless my search parameters have been terrible, always a possibility! ). I'm not sure if there is even a good general rule, especially factoring in different societal norms and pressures. At the very least, I think people from all sides of this can agree that 'be cautious' is probably good advice!

That's very interesting! There are probably about 3-4 generations encompassed in this board, and I like seeing how perceptions and values change over time - and sometimes don't change at all, depending on how one was raised or what decisions they made after they were raised.

 

[High_Gravity]

If everyone in our generation kept the commandment of chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards, we would wipe out EVERY STD in our generation. We would have significant less crime and mental health problems because the broken home contributes big time to both of those problems.

Imagine what we could also occur if men would flee from pornography and step up to the call of father hood while their wives stepped up to their call to motherhood. We would all be wealthier and more prosperous.

There would be significantly less lawyers. We wouldn't need them as much. Can anyone deny that would be a good thing? There would be less money spent by the government to maintain the courts. Medical costs would be less.

We could focus our resources onto more important things.

The world would be pretty darn sweet. We could unlock the potential of a lot of people who are now currently stuck in non-productive jobs.

The world you are describing just isn't realistic, do you know how many married couples are cheating on each other? just being married does not protect you from STD's.

 

[High_Gravity]

What do you feel are the pros and cons of doing so? Can not waiting have a negative impact on the marriage?

I did choose to wait, but I was blessed to be in a relationship with a man who was on the exact same page as I was. We are also blessed because it turns out we are perfectly compatible.

Further! would you advise your daughter to wait?

What about your son.

In a perfect world it would be ideal however with our sky high divorce rates, you can wait until your wedding day and end up being with other people anyways once you divorce.

I thought I read awhile back that our divorce rates had dropped. I'll have to do some research.

They've probably dropped because less people are getting married.

 

[High_Gravity]

Okay, I've thought about it overnight and considered the changing 'normal' in our American culture. In my lifetime I have seen us go from a norm of only the trashiest and immoral people would live together without benefit of marriage to cohabitation before marriage being the cultural norm by something between 50 and 60%.

In the same length of time, the cultural norm has gone from 'save it for marriage' to be sure you have a condom in your purse or pocket at all times just in case. Sex before marriage no longer tars somebody as a 'playboy' or 'loose woman' and living together is no longer considered a character flaw.

The upside to all that is the vanished 'scarlet letter' and much less negative side of shame.

The downside is a huge increase in STDs, many more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, a huge increase in single parents with resulting increased negative statistics of child poverty and other problems, a huge increase in divorce, higher incidence of domestic violence, and women being 'used' and then discarded by men who will tell them anything just to acquire a warm place to put it for awhile.

I haven't looked them up lately, but I recall reading statistics that living together before marriage actually increases the probability of divorce after marriage, probably because the relation starts off with no clear commitment to each other. Also among both men and women, those who are promiscuous before marriage are less likely to be faithful after marriage and for most people, that one is a biggie when it comes to the qualities that make for good marriages.And of course there are those who are just as convinced that the opposite of the statistics is the real truth.

I counsel young people to at least commit to a ring and a date before having sex. And the vast majority of those who do that go on to get married and from all indications are enjoying happy marriages that will last.

I honestly don't understand how that can be true.

 

[Delia]

If everyone in our generation kept the commandment of chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards, we would wipe out EVERY STD in our generation. We would have significant less crime and mental health problems because the broken home contributes big time to both of those problems.

Imagine what we could also occur if men would flee from pornography and step up to the call of father hood while their wives stepped up to their call to motherhood. We would all be wealthier and more prosperous.

There would be significantly less lawyers. We wouldn't need them as much. Can anyone deny that would be a good thing? There would be less money spent by the government to maintain the courts. Medical costs would be less.

We could focus our resources onto more important things.

The world would be pretty darn sweet. We could unlock the potential of a lot of people who are now currently stuck in non-productive jobs.

The world you are describing just isn't realistic, do you know how many married couples are cheating on each other? just being married does not protect you from STD's.

When I read her post, lovely as it sounded, I have to admit it reminded me of Pleasantville. Did you see that movie?

 

[Delia]

In a perfect world it would be ideal however with our sky high divorce rates, you can wait until your wedding day and end up being with other people anyways once you divorce.

I thought I read awhile back that our divorce rates had dropped. I'll have to do some research.

They've probably dropped because less people are getting married.

No, silly. Within the confines of those who do get married, less are getting unmarried.

 

[AmyNation]

What do you feel are the pros and cons of doing so? Can not waiting have a negative impact on the marriage?

I did choose to wait, but I was blessed to be in a relationship with a man who was on the exact same page as I was. We are also blessed because it turns out we are perfectly compatible.

Further! would you advise your daughter to wait?

What about your son.

In a perfect world it would be ideal however with our sky high divorce rates, you can wait until your wedding day and end up being with other people anyways once you divorce.

I thought I read awhile back that our divorce rates had dropped. I'll have to do some research.

You know what i find interesting, you look into any of the major issues that concern the state of the nation, crime, violence, murder, rape, divorce, abortion... And more often than not, you find that starting in the late 60's things went bad, rose steeply and peeked sometime in the 80's.

Divorce rate trends


Divorce rates are down.

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

If somebody told me I could drink just one wine for the rest of my life and that I had one year to choose that wine, guess what I'd do for one year? Sample alot of wine!

 

[High_Gravity]

I thought I read awhile back that our divorce rates had dropped. I'll have to do some research.

They've probably dropped because less people are getting married.

No, silly. Within the confines of those who do get married, less are getting unmarried.

Hmm I'd have to see that, from what I'm seeing only the older couples are holding it together, the younger marriages are burning to the ground within 4-5 years tops.

 

[Montrovant]

Okay, I've thought about it overnight and considered the changing 'normal' in our American culture. In my lifetime I have seen us go from a norm of only the trashiest and immoral people would live together without benefit of marriage to cohabitation before marriage being the cultural norm by something between 50 and 60%.

In the same length of time, the cultural norm has gone from 'save it for marriage' to be sure you have a condom in your purse or pocket at all times just in case. Sex before marriage no longer tars somebody as a 'playboy' or 'loose woman' and living together is no longer considered a character flaw.

The upside to all that is the vanished 'scarlet letter' and much less negative side of shame.

The downside is a huge increase in STDs, many more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, a huge increase in single parents with resulting increased negative statistics of child poverty and other problems, a huge increase in divorce, higher incidence of domestic violence, and women being 'used' and then discarded by men who will tell them anything just to acquire a warm place to put it for awhile.

I haven't looked them up lately, but I recall reading statistics that living together before marriage actually increases the probability of divorce after marriage, probably because the relation starts off with no clear commitment to each other. Also among both men and women, those who are promiscuous before marriage are less likely to be faithful after marriage and for most people, that one is a biggie when it comes to the qualities that make for good marriages.And of course there are those who are just as convinced that the opposite of the statistics is the real truth.

I counsel young people to at least commit to a ring and a date before having sex. And the vast majority of those who do that go on to get married and from all indications are enjoying happy marriages that will last.

I honestly don't understand how that can be true.

There could be a number of reasons, not all of which are directly because of the cohabitation.

Is it anyone who lives with someone before marriage, or only people who live with someone other than their spouse before they were married?

Are people who are more promiscuous more likely to cohabitate?

Does age/gender/socioeconomic status/area have a big impact?

One of the possible conclusions I saw in regard to this is that perhaps people who take marriage less seriously are more likely to live together before marriage, skewing the numbers. In other words, if people who consider marriage more important were to live together beforehand more often, the numbers would be different. It isn't the living together that's the problem, but the attitudes which lead to living together.

Like I said, I don't think there's a lot of research into these topics, and I don't know how accurate any such research will be (I think it is pretty much based on polls, and who knows how honest people are when answering those? Or how accurate their memories are, for that matter?).

It may well be that saving oneself for marriage is a great idea, at least for marital stability. It may even lead to a happier life. I don't think, however, that it is ever likely to become the norm. Sex is both too basic an urge, especially during the teen years when it can be so hard to make rational decisions, and too enjoyable for the majority of people to wait on.

And an interesting side question (at least in my mind) : do societal views of masturbation have anything to do with people's willingness to hold onto their virginity? If masturbation were looked at more as a natural thing, not a source of shame, might more people be willing to hold off having sexual relations with someone else? Just a thought.

 

[Montrovant]

They've probably dropped because less people are getting married.

No, silly. Within the confines of those who do get married, less are getting unmarried.

Hmm I'd have to see that, from what I'm seeing only the older couples are holding it together, the younger marriages are burning to the ground within 4-5 years tops.

This doesn't break it down by age group, but here's the CDC's data on divorce rates for 1990-2011, broken down by state :

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/divorce_rates_90_95_99-11.pdf

 

[High_Gravity]

Okay, I've thought about it overnight and considered the changing 'normal' in our American culture. In my lifetime I have seen us go from a norm of only the trashiest and immoral people would live together without benefit of marriage to cohabitation before marriage being the cultural norm by something between 50 and 60%.

In the same length of time, the cultural norm has gone from 'save it for marriage' to be sure you have a condom in your purse or pocket at all times just in case. Sex before marriage no longer tars somebody as a 'playboy' or 'loose woman' and living together is no longer considered a character flaw.

The upside to all that is the vanished 'scarlet letter' and much less negative side of shame.

The downside is a huge increase in STDs, many more unwanted pregnancies and abortions, a huge increase in single parents with resulting increased negative statistics of child poverty and other problems, a huge increase in divorce, higher incidence of domestic violence, and women being 'used' and then discarded by men who will tell them anything just to acquire a warm place to put it for awhile.

I haven't looked them up lately, but I recall reading statistics that living together before marriage actually increases the probability of divorce after marriage, probably because the relation starts off with no clear commitment to each other. Also among both men and women, those who are promiscuous before marriage are less likely to be faithful after marriage and for most people, that one is a biggie when it comes to the qualities that make for good marriages.And of course there are those who are just as convinced that the opposite of the statistics is the real truth.

I counsel young people to at least commit to a ring and a date before having sex. And the vast majority of those who do that go on to get married and from all indications are enjoying happy marriages that will last.

I honestly don't understand how that can be true.

There could be a number of reasons, not all of which are directly because of the cohabitation.

Is it anyone who lives with someone before marriage, or only people who live with someone other than their spouse before they were married?

Are people who are more promiscuous more likely to cohabitate?

Does age/gender/socioeconomic status/area have a big impact?

One of the possible conclusions I saw in regard to this is that perhaps people who take marriage less seriously are more likely to live together before marriage, skewing the numbers. In other words, if people who consider marriage more important were to live together beforehand more often, the numbers would be different. It isn't the living together that's the problem, but the attitudes which lead to living together.

Like I said, I don't think there's a lot of research into these topics, and I don't know how accurate any such research will be (I think it is pretty much based on polls, and who knows how honest people are when answering those? Or how accurate their memories are, for that matter?).

It may well be that saving oneself for marriage is a great idea, at least for marital stability. It may even lead to a happier life. I don't think, however, that it is ever likely to become the norm. Sex is both too basic an urge, especially during the teen years when it can be so hard to make rational decisions, and too enjoyable for the majority of people to wait on.

And an interesting side question (at least in my mind) : do societal views of masturbation have anything to do with people's willingness to hold onto their virginity? If masturbation were looked at more as a natural thing, not a source of shame, might more people be willing to hold off having sexual relations with someone else? Just a thought.

Maybe for some people, but I don't think for the majority. Sex is so much better than masturbating, I don't see too many people commiting to that.

 

[High_Gravity]

No, silly. Within the confines of those who do get married, less are getting unmarried.

Hmm I'd have to see that, from what I'm seeing only the older couples are holding it together, the younger marriages are burning to the ground within 4-5 years tops.

This doesn't break it down by age group, but here's the CDC's data on divorce rates for 1990-2011, broken down by state :

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/divorce_rates_90_95_99-11.pdf

Hmm, thats a good thing if its accurate, is it because people are holding off on marriage until they are older? older people who marry usually have better success than teens and 20 year olds.

 

[Montrovant]

Maybe for some people, but I don't think for the majority. Sex is so much better than masturbating, I don't see too many people commiting to that.

Yes, but at least as I remember my younger years, there was a lot of peer pressure to have sex, whereas the idea of masturbating was one linked with shame. So, at least by the measure of the stupid kids we were, if you weren't having sex with someone you should have simply done without any release. (I doubt many actually abstained totally, but still ).

I think it's possible it would allow for at least a little less....enthusiasm in pursuing sex. Or not.

 

[Delia]

I didn't date at all in high school. Not one-on-one, anyway. We always went to church social and youth group functions together, and everybody knew where we were headed.

But I am very aware that I am nowhere near the norm, and I can't think less of anyone who didn't do as I did.

 

[NoNukes]

Sex is very important in a relationship. How could you marry someone if you do not know if you are sexually compatible? People should have sex and live together before they are married.

 

[NoNukes]

I honestly don't understand how that can be true.

There could be a number of reasons, not all of which are directly because of the cohabitation.

Is it anyone who lives with someone before marriage, or only people who live with someone other than their spouse before they were married?

Are people who are more promiscuous more likely to cohabitate?

Does age/gender/socioeconomic status/area have a big impact?

One of the possible conclusions I saw in regard to this is that perhaps people who take marriage less seriously are more likely to live together before marriage, skewing the numbers. In other words, if people who consider marriage more important were to live together beforehand more often, the numbers would be different. It isn't the living together that's the problem, but the attitudes which lead to living together.

Like I said, I don't think there's a lot of research into these topics, and I don't know how accurate any such research will be (I think it is pretty much based on polls, and who knows how honest people are when answering those? Or how accurate their memories are, for that matter?).

It may well be that saving oneself for marriage is a great idea, at least for marital stability. It may even lead to a happier life. I don't think, however, that it is ever likely to become the norm. Sex is both too basic an urge, especially during the teen years when it can be so hard to make rational decisions, and too enjoyable for the majority of people to wait on.

And an interesting side question (at least in my mind) : do societal views of masturbation have anything to do with people's willingness to hold onto their virginity? If masturbation were looked at more as a natural thing, not a source of shame, might more people be willing to hold off having sexual relations with someone else? Just a thought.

Maybe for some people, but I don't think for the majority. Sex is so much better than masturbating, I don't see too many people commiting to that.

But, you can always convince yourself to masterbate.

 

[Underhill]

Sex is very important in a relationship. How could you marry someone if you do not know if you are sexually compatible? People should have sex and live together before they are married.

Because they don't know any better.

I think there is some truth in the old saying, "ignorance is bliss".

Even bad sex is the best sex you've ever had if it's all you've experienced...

Don't get me wrong. I don't recommend it. But it can work.

 

[NoNukes]

Sex is very important in a relationship. How could you marry someone if you do not know if you are sexually compatible? People should have sex and live together before they are married.

Because they don't know any better.

I think there is some truth in the old saying, "ignorance is bliss".

Even bad sex is the best sex you've ever had if it's all you've experienced...

Don't get me wrong. I don't recommend it. But it can work.

You should not marry the only person that you have had sex with either. Your partner could be terrible and you would not know it. You might not even know if your sex was any good. You should not make any hasty decisions before you have had 10 sexual partners.

 

[Underhill]

Sex is very important in a relationship. How could you marry someone if you do not know if you are sexually compatible? People should have sex and live together before they are married.

Because they don't know any better.

I think there is some truth in the old saying, "ignorance is bliss".

Even bad sex is the best sex you've ever had if it's all you've experienced...

Don't get me wrong. I don't recommend it. But it can work.

You should not marry the only person that you have had sex with either. Your partner could be terrible and you would not know it. You might not even know if your sex was any good. You should not make any hasty decisions before you have had 10 sexual partners.

I'm not saying it's a recipe for a good sex life. But I know plenty of people who have taken that route and done okay with their marriage.

And in their defense I would say this.

NPR recently had a show talking about happiness. And they made an interesting point.

In surveys they said most people say they were happiest during sex. Down the list a ways were things like reading a book or enjoying a nice walk after dinner.

But a researcher made the very valid point that most people spend less than an hour a week having sex. Some a lot less. And you can spend many hours with a good book. So which makes you happier overall?

My point is, there is a hell of a lot more to a relationship than sex. I would bet the best sexual partnership in the world wouldn't hold up worth 2 cents without something more fundamental behind it.

Even in my personal life, the best sex I ever had was with a psycho. Amazing in the sack but I couldn't have a decent conversation with her... I read a few years back that she stabbed her boyfriend and was in jail. So I'm thinking I dodged a bullet.