Trinity, there is not one that is all 3

[Intense]

The belief that there is a Holy Trinity, that encompasses God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one single being is NOT in the Bible. This is a false teaching.

Read John in any version you wish ( I use the King James Version). Through out John Jesus himself repeatedly describes himself as the SON of God, as NOT God, and that God uses the Holy Spirit. He states he is NOT God, but rather his Son. That everything he does he does because his father lets him do it. He says it in NUMEROUS passages in John, in his own words.

What, then, is our doctrine? The Lord, in delivering the saving Faith to those who become disciples of the word, joins with the Father and the Son the Holy Spirit also; and we affirm that the union of that which has once been joined is continual; for it is not joined in one thing, and separated in others. But the power of the Spirit, being included with the Father and the Son in the life-giving power, by which our nature is transferred from the corruptible life to immortality, and in many other cases also, as in the conception of "Good," and "Holy," and "Eternal," "Wise," "Righteous," "Chief," "Mighty," and in fact everywhere, has an inseparable association with them in all the attributes ascribed in a sense of special excellence. And so we consider that it is right to think that that which is joined to the Father and the Son in such sublime and exalted conceptions is not separated from them in any. For we do not know of any differences by way of superiority and inferiority in attributes which express our conceptions of the Divine nature, so that we should suppose it an act of piety (while allowing to the Spirit community in the inferior attributes) to judge Him unworthy of those more exalted. For all the Divine attributes, whether named or conceived, are of like rank one with another, in that they are not distinguishable in respect of the signification of their subject. For the appellation of "the Good" does not lead our minds to one subject, and that of "the Wise," or "the Mighty," or "the Righteous" to another, but the thing to which all the attributes point is one; and, if you speak of God, you signify the same Whom you understood by the other attributes. If then all the attributes ascribed to the Divine nature are of equal force as regards their designation of the subject, leading our minds to the same subject in various aspects, what reason is there that one, while allowing to the Spirit community with the Father and the Son in the other attributes, should exclude Him from the Godhead alone? It is absolutely necessary either to allow to Him community in this also, or not to admit His community in the others. For if He is worthy in the case of those attributes, He is surely not less worthy in this. But if He is "less," according to their phrase , so that He is excluded from community with the Father and the Son in the attribute of Godhead, neither is He worthy to share in any other of the attributes which belong to God.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Holy Trinity (Gregory of Nyssa)

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I just quoted that. I also quoted the context, which you left out. Look again.

In context? would be disbelief and rejection of the holy spirit. Joking about the holy spirit is acting as if you don't believe in it.

The context meaning what Jesus was talking about and doing right before he said that, and what he meant by the "therefore" in "Therefore, I tell you that . . ."

He was talking about the accusation that he cast out devils because he was in league with the Big Evil Guy. THAT is what he was calling insulting the holy spirit: calling the power of God and its manifestations a power of evil. After all, what IS the Holy Spirit? Is it not the power of God manifest in us? And so when Jesus displayed that power, and the Pharisees said it came from the Devil, what was that but insulting the Holy Spirit?

It has nothing to do with making a stupid joke. Nothing at all. You are insulting the Holy Spirit when you do what the Pharisees were doing in that story.

So: when you see good works being done (within or without) by holy power, no matter the religious context, call that what it really is, and don't call it the power of Satan. THAT is insulting the Holy Spirit.

Once again the only unforgivable sin is to mock, insult, reject the holy spirit. Don't take my word for it if you think mocking the holy spirit is ok Go for it.

 

[The Professor]

Some Christians believe that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son). However other Christians believe Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, while still others believe Jesus is God Himself. Yet in spite of their conflicting beliefs, they all point to the same Bible to prove their position, and in each case, there are indeed verses which - on their face - support each of their varied beliefs. Other posters have submitted verses tending to prove that God and Christ are one and the same; however, I submit the following verses which I think prove that God and Christ are entirely separate entities (all references are to the KJV):

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18

“And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father.”

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

(Commenting on this dying exclamation of Christ, Dr. Conway says: "That cry could never be wrung from the lips of a man who saw in his own death a prearranged plan for the world's salvation, and his own return to divine glory temporarily renounced for transient misery on earth. The fictitious theology of a thousand years shrivels beneath the awful anguish of that cry." See The Christ, by John E. Remsberg, p.314.)

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42:

“Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself, but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.)

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)

1 Timothy 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator BETWEEN God and men, He cannot be God. These verses clearly and convincingly establish that Christ and God are separate entities.)

Isaiah 43:10-12:
(The Old Testament God speaking):

“You are My witnesses, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor after Me there is none. I, I am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior. I, I have declared and saved, and made known, and there was no foreign mighty one among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God” (emphasis my own).

(This verse, along with many other Old Testament verses, shows that God is unique and individual. It also shows that salvation existed long before the birth of Christ.)

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?

Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you want to believe.

But
wouldn't that just mean it contradicts it's self?

It would appear so. However, there are much better examples of Biblical contradictions. I have studied the Bible for over 60 years and have found hundreds of contradictions. Actually there are thousands if I were to include the purported quotes of Christ's words. There are many Christians, even Christian theologians, who acknowledge that the Bible is not inerrant. They opine that the contradictions tend to prove the Book is genuine and not the product of collusion. The Christian world is somewhat divided on the issue of Biblical inerrancy.

To those fundamentalists who claim the Bible is free of the slightest contradiction, I have a question: How many times did Peter deny Christ before the cock crowed for the very first time? If you say three, the Bible will prove you wrong...and right.

And here is my favorite question: After Christ's resurrection, to whom did he appear and what was the order of those appearances? In spite of decades of research, I have not read a credible attempt to answer this question. Christian Theologians admit that the various accounts in the Bible cannot be reconciled. The best answer I have heard is "we must walk by faith and not by sight."

I would gladly debate anyone who is adamant that there are no Biblical contradictions; however, I prefer individual threads on each contradiction so that nothing gets lost in a sea of words. I will soon start individual threads on each question I have proposed herein. Hint to Fundamentalists: regarding how many times the cock crowed before Peter's first denial, the Books of Matthew, Luke and John are in agreement; however, the book of Mark says something quite different. Regarding Christ's post-resurrection appearances, in addition to the the four Gospels don't forget to read Paul's account in 1 Corinthians 15:4-8. If you want to debate me, you better be well prepared.

 

[Dragon]

In context? would be disbelief and rejection of the holy spirit. Joking about the holy spirit is acting as if you don't believe in it.

The context meaning what Jesus was talking about and doing right before he said that, and what he meant by the "therefore" in "Therefore, I tell you that . . ."

He was talking about the accusation that he cast out devils because he was in league with the Big Evil Guy. THAT is what he was calling insulting the holy spirit: calling the power of God and its manifestations a power of evil. After all, what IS the Holy Spirit? Is it not the power of God manifest in us? And so when Jesus displayed that power, and the Pharisees said it came from the Devil, what was that but insulting the Holy Spirit?

It has nothing to do with making a stupid joke. Nothing at all. You are insulting the Holy Spirit when you do what the Pharisees were doing in that story.

So: when you see good works being done (within or without) by holy power, no matter the religious context, call that what it really is, and don't call it the power of Satan. THAT is insulting the Holy Spirit.

Once again the only unforgivable sin is to mock, insult, reject the holy spirit. Don't take my word for it if you think mocking the holy spirit is ok Go for it.

Once again, you do not understand what that means. Please re-read what I posted above. You HAVE NOT responded to it in any way that addresses what I said.

 

[Dragon]

But since God does not deal in lies, if their is one lie in the Bible the whole bible is a lie.

That argument requires assuming a priori that God wrote the Bible, which is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

It is perfectly possible that:

1) Only part of the Bible is really the "word of God," and the rest is not a lie by God but simply a normal human document with the normal human possibility of error; or

2) NONE of the Bible is really the "word of God" and it is ALL a normal human document -- with the normal human possibility of being right.

Either way, it's perfectly possible for some parts of the Bible to be accurate and others not.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The context meaning what Jesus was talking about and doing right before he said that, and what he meant by the "therefore" in "Therefore, I tell you that . . ."

He was talking about the accusation that he cast out devils because he was in league with the Big Evil Guy. THAT is what he was calling insulting the holy spirit: calling the power of God and its manifestations a power of evil. After all, what IS the Holy Spirit? Is it not the power of God manifest in us? And so when Jesus displayed that power, and the Pharisees said it came from the Devil, what was that but insulting the Holy Spirit?

It has nothing to do with making a stupid joke. Nothing at all. You are insulting the Holy Spirit when you do what the Pharisees were doing in that story.

So: when you see good works being done (within or without) by holy power, no matter the religious context, call that what it really is, and don't call it the power of Satan. THAT is insulting the Holy Spirit.

Once again the only unforgivable sin is to mock, insult, reject the holy spirit. Don't take my word for it if you think mocking the holy spirit is ok Go for it.

Once again, you do not understand what that means. Please re-read what I posted above. You HAVE NOT responded to it in any way that addresses what I said.

I have responded all I will if you don't think mocking the holy spirit is the unforgivable knock yourself out.

 

[Dragon]

I have responded all I will

You have done so without the least evidence of having engaged in thinking, though..

 

[bigrebnc1775]

But since God does not deal in lies, if their is one lie in the Bible the whole bible is a lie.

That argument requires assuming a priori that God wrote the Bible, which is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

It is perfectly possible that:

1) Only part of the Bible is really the "word of God," and the rest is not a lie by God but simply a normal human document with the normal human possibility of error; or

2) NONE of the Bible is really the "word of God" and it is ALL a normal human document -- with the normal human possibility of being right.

Either way, it's perfectly possible for some parts of the Bible to be accurate and others not.

Why do you think it's called the word of God?
It was written through Devin interpretation.
Question who's words is it when a CEO dictates a letter to his secretary?
She wrote but he spoke it?

 

[AmericanFirst]

But since God does not deal in lies, if their is one lie in the Bible the whole bible is a lie.

That argument requires assuming a priori that God wrote the Bible, which is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

It is perfectly possible that:

1) Only part of the Bible is really the "word of God," and the rest is not a lie by God but simply a normal human document with the normal human possibility of error; or

2) NONE of the Bible is really the "word of God" and it is ALL a normal human document -- with the normal human possibility of being right.

Either way, it's perfectly possible for some parts of the Bible to be accurate and others not.

Why do you think it's called the word of God?
It was written through Devin interpretation.
Question who's words is it when a CEO dictates a letter to his secretary?
She wrote but he spoke it?

Arguing with satans disciple is useless. He knows he is wrong, he will just not admit it to himself or others.

 

[Dragon]

Why do you think it's called the word of God?

Irrelevant. The point is that in saying one must either accept or reject the entire thing, you have presented an irrational argument without foundation.

 

[AmericanFirst]

A cherry picker, or a Troll?

Like I said......throw your Bible away because you don't believe it

I believe in God, I have faith in God,
there is wisdom in the bible but it is a book inspired by God, written by men.
men make mistakes the bible it's self says that.

God is perfect the Bible is not.


I do believe a good sum of what it says,
n I'm not going to throw it away my dead Grandma gave me that.

I really hate to inform you of this because it will mess up your misconception of the bible and God. But since God does not deal in lies, if their is one lie in the Bible the whole bible is a lie.

The Bible doesn't have any lies. The fault is with who is reading it.

 

[Dragon]

Arguing with satans disciple is useless. He knows he is wrong, he will just not admit it to himself or others.

In calling me Satan's disciple, you are insulting the Holy Spirit. I give you Jesus' answer he gave the Pharisees.

And no, ARGUING with me is certainly not useless. However, presenting nothing but dogma, WITHOUT supporting argument, is.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Who gets top billing? The Father
Then the Son

Holy Spirit is a weak third. His god powers are nowhere close to the other two.

Dude really according to Christian's making fun of (mocking) the Holy Ghost is the only sin that is unforgivable. If I were you I wouldn't go down that road.

Just commenting on the relative power of the trinity. They are not all equal. If the holy trinity were the Three Stooges, the Holy Ghost would be Larry

WRONG!!! If you are not smart enough to prove yourself, stop trying, you are hurting your image.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Arguing with satans disciple is useless. He knows he is wrong, he will just not admit it to himself or others.

In calling me Satan's disciple, you are insulting the Holy Spirit. I give you Jesus' answer he gave the Pharisees.

And no, ARGUING with me is certainly not useless. However, presenting nothing but dogma, WITHOUT supporting argument, is.

The Bible is my supproting truth. Calling you satans disciple is not insulting the Holy Spirit. You insult the Holy Spirit.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Why do you think it's called the word of God?

Irrelevant. The point is that in saying one must either accept or reject the entire thing, you have presented an irrational argument without foundation.

Talking about Gods words and the bible being Gods word is irrelevant? That is a load of BS.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I have responded all I will

You have done so without the least evidence of having engaged in thinking, though..

I am not hear to guide you nor tell you that you are wrong, if you think it's not a sin to mock the holy spirit knock yourself out. That's between you and God.

 

[Dragon]

The Bible is my supproting truth. Calling you satans disciple is not insulting the Holy Spirit. You insult the Holy Spirit.

Thinking absolutely terrifies you, doesn't it?

Here is why you are insulting the Holy Spirit. I bring insights to the discussion gained in selflessness in the presence of God. You call those insights the work of Satan -- just as the Pharisees said that Jesus cast out devils by the hand of Beelzebul.

That is what Jesus meant when he referred to insults against the Holy Spirit. If you wish to use the Bible as a source, it is necessary to understand it.

And that means you must overcome your fear and actually THINK.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The Bible is my supproting truth. Calling you satans disciple is not insulting the Holy Spirit. You insult the Holy Spirit.

Thinking absolutely terrifies you, doesn't it?

Here is why you are insulting the Holy Spirit. I bring insights to the discussion gained in selflessness in the presence of God. You call those insights the work of Satan -- just as the Pharisees said that Jesus cast out devils by the hand of Beelzebul.

That is what Jesus meant when he referred to insults against the Holy Spirit. If you wish to use the Bible as a source, it is necessary to understand it.

And that means you must overcome your fear and actually THINK.

God gave him a brain and he is using it.

 

[Dragon]

Why do you think it's called the word of God?

Irrelevant. The point is that in saying one must either accept or reject the entire thing, you have presented an irrational argument without foundation.

Talking about Gods words and the bible being Gods word is irrelevant? That is a load of BS.

Talking about why the Bible is considered by some to be God's word is irrelevant to your claim that it is all or nothing. That claim could be false. If it is, then some parts of the Bible could still be true -- just as many purely human statements are true. One is under no obligation whatever to accept or reject the entire thing.

 

[Dragon]

God gave him a brain and he is using it.

No, he quite obviously isn't. Neither are you.