Trinity, there is not one that is all 3

[Youwerecreated]

I can cite passage after passage where John and Jesus sate that Jesus is the Son, that Jesus has only the power give n him by his Father God. Passages where Jesus states he is NOT God, he is his son.

And the Bible talks of other Gods. Only one God is supreme. Jesus was God's first creation. He is as one with God, they think and act alike but they are not one being. God gave to Jesus the power to help him create everything after Jesus.

John 1:33 tells us that God commanded John to baptize Jesus with the holy Ghost, 3 separate entities, 2 visible to John at the same time.

John 1:34 states that this is Jesus the SON of God.

In Jesus own words he states he is not God but his son. In John 2:16 he reprimands those selling in the temple and warns them not to make HIS FATHER'S Hoses a store.

John 3:16 through 19 Jesus informs that he, THE SON of GOD was sent to save the world.

I can go on and on with JUST John.

What about this?

You see the word


and who is the word?

John 1:14
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I have studied this for many years and believed once that Jesus was the actual son of God until a thourough study was done he is a lesser form of the Almighty. He is God the creator.

 

[Youwerecreated]

OH one mans opinion?

Fine the opinion of the people who founded Christianity,
but they where so afraid of other peoples points of view about it they called their accounts heresy and tried to destroy them all.
Luckily for us some of them remain in the dead sea scrolls.

Christianity was clearly used as a tool to unify people under one government, so that they could be better controlled by it.
Why else should those Jewish practices that even Jesus himself took part in be thrown to the wind? but to allow people who either can't or won't convert to join as that means more money for the Church, more money for the Church meant more money for the Government. They even moved the Birth of Christ to a different date.

So it is an opinion shared by the creators of the New-Testament and some people today.
Whether or not its true Ill have to die first in order to find out.

That would be Jesus Christ. Hve fun with that.

Which is the creator of all things.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the fellowship of the mystery which from eternity has been hidden in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ;

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.

Rev 4:8 And each one of the four living creatures had six wings about him, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God, the Almighty, who was and is and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures gave glory and honor and thanks to Him who sat on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fell down before the One sitting on the throne. And they worshiped Him who lives for ever and ever, and threw their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 O Lord, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You created all things, and for Your will they are and were created.

I don't believe in the Trinity doctrine though.

Isa 44:24 So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Jehovah who makes all things; who stretches out the heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?



Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man on it; I with My hands have stretched out the heavens; and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways; he shall build My city, and he shall let My captives go, not for price nor reward, says Jehovah of Hosts.
Isa 45:14 So says Jehovah, The labor of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia, and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come to you, and they shall be yours. They shall come after you in chains; and they shall cross in chains and they shall fall down to you. They shall plead to you, saying, Surely God is in you; and none else, no other God.
Isa 45:15 Truly You are a God who hides Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior.



Isa 37:16 O Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, who dwells between the cherubs, You are He, God, You alone to all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made the heavens and the earth.

Only God is the creator.


Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Gen 5:2 He created them male and female, and blessed them. And He called their name man in the day when they were created.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Some Christians believe that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son). However other Christians believe Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, while still others believe Jesus is God Himself. Yet in spite of their conflicting beliefs, they all point to the same Bible to prove their position, and in each case, there are indeed verses which - on their face - support each of their varied beliefs. Other posters have submitted verses tending to prove that God and Christ are one and the same; however, I submit the following verses which I think prove that God and Christ are entirely separate entities (all references are to the KJV):

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18

“And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father.”

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

(Commenting on this dying exclamation of Christ, Dr. Conway says: "That cry could never be wrung from the lips of a man who saw in his own death a prearranged plan for the world's salvation, and his own return to divine glory temporarily renounced for transient misery on earth. The fictitious theology of a thousand years shrivels beneath the awful anguish of that cry." See The Christ, by John E. Remsberg, p.314.)

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42:

“Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself, but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.)

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)

1 Timothy 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator BETWEEN God and men, He cannot be God. These verses clearly and convincingly establish that Christ and God are separate entities.)

Isaiah 43:10-12:
(The Old Testament God speaking):

“You are My witnesses, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor after Me there is none. I, I am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior. I, I have declared and saved, and made known, and there was no foreign mighty one among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God” (emphasis my own).

(This verse, along with many other Old Testament verses, shows that God is unique and individual. It also shows that salvation existed long before the birth of Christ.)

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?

Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you want to believe.

But
wouldn't that just mean it contradicts it's self?

It would appear so. However, there are much better examples of Biblical contradictions. I have studied the Bible for over 60 years and have found hundreds of contradictions. Actually there are thousands if I were to include the purported quotes of Christ's words. There are many Christians, even Christian theologians, who acknowledge that the Bible is not inerrant. They opine that the contradictions tend to prove the Book is genuine and not the product of collusion. The Christian world is somewhat divided on the issue of Biblical inerrancy.

To those fundamentalists who claim the Bible is free of the slightest contradiction, I have a question: How many times did Peter deny Christ before the cock crowed for the very first time? If you say three, the Bible will prove you wrong...and right.

And here is my favorite question: After Christ's resurrection, to whom did he appear and what was the order of those appearances? In spite of decades of research, I have not read a credible attempt to answer this question. Christian Theologians admit that the various accounts in the Bible cannot be reconciled. The best answer I have heard is "we must walk by faith and not by sight."

I would gladly debate anyone who is adamant that there are no Biblical contradictions; however, I prefer individual threads on each contradiction so that nothing gets lost in a sea of words. I will soon start individual threads on each question I have proposed herein. Hint to Fundamentalists: regarding how many times the cock crowed before Peter's first denial, the Books of Matthew, Luke and John are in agreement; however, the book of Mark says something quite different. Regarding Christ's post-resurrection appearances, in addition to the the four Gospels don't forget to read Paul's account in 1 Corinthians 15:4-8. If you want to debate me, you better be well prepared.

Which version are you comdemning to contradictions ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Some Christians believe that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son). However other Christians believe Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, while still others believe Jesus is God Himself. Yet in spite of their conflicting beliefs, they all point to the same Bible to prove their position, and in each case, there are indeed verses which - on their face - support each of their varied beliefs. Other posters have submitted verses tending to prove that God and Christ are one and the same; however, I submit the following verses which I think prove that God and Christ are entirely separate entities (all references are to the KJV):

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18

“And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father.”

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

(Commenting on this dying exclamation of Christ, Dr. Conway says: "That cry could never be wrung from the lips of a man who saw in his own death a prearranged plan for the world's salvation, and his own return to divine glory temporarily renounced for transient misery on earth. The fictitious theology of a thousand years shrivels beneath the awful anguish of that cry." See The Christ, by John E. Remsberg, p.314.)

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42:

“Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself, but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.)

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)

1 Timothy 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator BETWEEN God and men, He cannot be God. These verses clearly and convincingly establish that Christ and God are separate entities.)

Isaiah 43:10-12:
(The Old Testament God speaking):

“You are My witnesses, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor after Me there is none. I, I am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior. I, I have declared and saved, and made known, and there was no foreign mighty one among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God” (emphasis my own).

(This verse, along with many other Old Testament verses, shows that God is unique and individual. It also shows that salvation existed long before the birth of Christ.)

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?

Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you want to believe.

But
wouldn't that just mean it contradicts it's self?

It would appear so. However, there are much better examples of Biblical contradictions. I have studied the Bible for over 60 years and have found hundreds of contradictions. Actually there are thousands if I were to include the purported quotes of Christ's words. There are many Christians, even Christian theologians, who acknowledge that the Bible is not inerrant. They opine that the contradictions tend to prove the Book is genuine and not the product of collusion. The Christian world is somewhat divided on the issue of Biblical inerrancy.

To those fundamentalists who claim the Bible is free of the slightest contradiction, I have a question: How many times did Peter deny Christ before the cock crowed for the very first time? If you say three, the Bible will prove you wrong...and right.

And here is my favorite question: After Christ's resurrection, to whom did he appear and what was the order of those appearances? In spite of decades of research, I have not read a credible attempt to answer this question. Christian Theologians admit that the various accounts in the Bible cannot be reconciled. The best answer I have heard is "we must walk by faith and not by sight."

I would gladly debate anyone who is adamant that there are no Biblical contradictions; however, I prefer individual threads on each contradiction so that nothing gets lost in a sea of words. I will soon start individual threads on each question I have proposed herein. Hint to Fundamentalists: regarding how many times the cock crowed before Peter's first denial, the Books of Matthew, Luke and John are in agreement; however, the book of Mark says something quite different. Regarding Christ's post-resurrection appearances, in addition to the the four Gospels don't forget to read Paul's account in 1 Corinthians 15:4-8. If you want to debate me, you better be well prepared.

The only time there are contradictions is when one reads the bible in a literal means,not understanding many things in the bible are not literal happenings but parables.

 

[hortysir]

But since God does not deal in lies, if their is one lie in the Bible the whole bible is a lie.

That argument requires assuming a priori that God wrote the Bible, which is the logical fallacy known as "begging the question."

It is perfectly possible that:

1) Only part of the Bible is really the "word of God," and the rest is not a lie by God but simply a normal human document with the normal human possibility of error; or

2) NONE of the Bible is really the "word of God" and it is ALL a normal human document -- with the normal human possibility of being right.

Either way, it's perfectly possible for some parts of the Bible to be accurate and others not.

Let's imagine that 8,000 years ago a priest chiseled a toe out of stone.

750 years later and 5,000 miles a way a lawyer chisels an ear.

400 years and 6,000 miles away a fisherman chisels a finger.


See where I'm going with this??

When everything was all said and done it was put together into this perfect masterpiece that we have at our fingertips today.

If that's not God, that's one whopper of a coincidence

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Jesus own words.

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works then these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;

John 5:23 through John 5:47 all Jesus words he repeatedly refers to himself as the Son and being sent by the Father. 2 Separate beings, distinct and different.

And so it goes through out the Bible, especially in John.

 

[Dragon]

When everything was all said and done it was put together into this perfect masterpiece that we have at our fingertips today.

If that's not God, that's one whopper of a coincidence

In the first place, I don't come anywhere near sharing your evaluation of the Bible as "perfect." It contradicts itself in many places, states facts that I know to be untrue, and makes moral assertions that I find loathsome.

In the second place, the books of the Bible were neither written in remote locations by people who did not know each other, nor were free of editing. Each author of the Bible's books was familiar with those that preexisted the one he wrote. The Old Testament was edited, redacted, and (quite possible) purged or rewritten by Jewish priests on at least two occasions, while the New Testament books were selected from multiple candidates by the authorities of the Imperial Church.

It's neither miraculous nor a particularly unlikely coincidence.

 

[Dragon]

The Bible identifies satan as the dragon of old.

Another mark against the Bible, then, another bit of nonsense it's guilty of, and you reinforcing my point that you are afraid to do your own thinking, letting a book do it for you.

 

[Sunshine]

The belief that there is a Holy Trinity, that encompasses God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one single being is NOT in the Bible. This is a false teaching.

Read John in any version you wish ( I use the King James Version). Through out John Jesus himself repeatedly describes himself as the SON of God, as NOT God, and that God uses the Holy Spirit. He states he is NOT God, but rather his Son. That everything he does he does because his father lets him do it. He says it in NUMEROUS passages in John, in his own words.

John 10:30
King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Sunshine]

Acts 5:3-4
New International Version (NIV)

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

 

[Sunshine]

Seems pretty clear to me! Maybe RGS dozed off a couple of times.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The belief that there is a Holy Trinity, that encompasses God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one single being is NOT in the Bible. This is a false teaching.

Read John in any version you wish ( I use the King James Version). Through out John Jesus himself repeatedly describes himself as the SON of God, as NOT God, and that God uses the Holy Spirit. He states he is NOT God, but rather his Son. That everything he does he does because his father lets him do it. He says it in NUMEROUS passages in John, in his own words.

John 10:30
King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

One does not mean they are the same person, it means they are of the same thoughts beliefs and carry themselves the same. Or perhaps you can explain why through out John Jesus states over and over he is the Son, not the Father, that the Father is superior and that everything he does he does FOR the Father? Or are those just inconvenient for you?

 

[Sunshine]

The belief that there is a Holy Trinity, that encompasses God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one single being is NOT in the Bible. This is a false teaching.

Read John in any version you wish ( I use the King James Version). Through out John Jesus himself repeatedly describes himself as the SON of God, as NOT God, and that God uses the Holy Spirit. He states he is NOT God, but rather his Son. That everything he does he does because his father lets him do it. He says it in NUMEROUS passages in John, in his own words.

John 10:30
King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

One does not mean they are the same person, it means they are of the same thoughts beliefs and carry themselves the same. Or perhaps you can explain why through out John Jesus states over and over he is the Son, not the Father, that the Father is superior and that everything he does he does FOR the Father? Or are those just inconvenient for you?

Does the term 'human' mean that we are all the same person?

Carry on with your Bible hang up. I don't get paid to clear it up for you.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Jesus own words.

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works then these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;

John 5:23 through John 5:47 all Jesus words he repeatedly refers to himself as the Son and being sent by the Father. 2 Separate beings, distinct and different.

And so it goes through out the Bible, especially in John.

They are two destinct persons of God but one of them is lesser and in subjection to the other.

The angel of the Lord and the word are God, they are different persons lesser in form that could be in the presence of man Where God the Almighty can't because we would not survive it.

There is a difference between "The Angel of the LORD" and "an Angel of the lord"

Let's take the burning bush into consideration.

Exo 3:1 Now Moses was keeping the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the back of the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God, unto Horeb.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


God reveals himself in lesser forms or he cannot have a personal relatioship with man.

 

[Youwerecreated]

The belief that there is a Holy Trinity, that encompasses God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one single being is NOT in the Bible. This is a false teaching.

Read John in any version you wish ( I use the King James Version). Through out John Jesus himself repeatedly describes himself as the SON of God, as NOT God, and that God uses the Holy Spirit. He states he is NOT God, but rather his Son. That everything he does he does because his father lets him do it. He says it in NUMEROUS passages in John, in his own words.

Wrong. The Bible does support, and say, there is a Holy Trinity. You need to read the whole Bible. But then the book of John, contrary to your statement, supports the Holy Trinity. Try again.

I read the New Testament regularly I have yet to find this doctrine of the trinity as defined in the creeds of nicea, or anthanasia. That you filter John through.

Most people who believe in the Trinity use this verse as proof of the doctrine. But I feel all this does is show they are destinct persons that are in complete agreement because they are all Part of God. But we must not forget any of the other persons God revealed himself in.

1Jn 5:7

(ASV) And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

(BBE) And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.

(CEV) In fact, there are three who tell about it.

(KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(KJV+) ForG3754 there areG1526 threeG5140 that bear recordG3140 inG1722 heaven,G3772 theG3588 Father,G3962 theG3588 Word,G3056 andG2532 theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost:G4151 andG2532 theseG3778 threeG5140 areG1526 one.G1520

1st John: 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

But there has been a lot of debate over this verse.

 

[amrchaos]

Is Jesus not referred to as The Word?

One only has to get as far as John 1:1 to disprove your claim.

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Good question.

Who refers to Jesus as the WORD? And exactly what is the WORD?

Also, let us make sure that John 1:1 is literal as can be, since there are instances that the authors of the Gospel tend to use lots of confusing literary devices.

 

[amrchaos]

Just commenting on the relative power of the trinity. They are not all equal. If the holy trinity were the Three Stooges, the Holy Ghost would be Larry

I warned you. It's on your head not mine.

That business about the holy spirit and the unforgivable sin is something that very few Christians understand. Let's take a look at the Gospel passages where Jesus is quoted talking about this. And let's look at it in context.

" 22 They brought to Jesus a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak. Jesus healed him so that he could both speak and see. 23 All the crowds were amazed and said, “This man couldn’t be the Son of David, could he?”

24 When the Pharisees heard, they said, “This man throws out demons only by the authority of Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”

25 Because Jesus knew what they were thinking, he replied, “Every kingdom involved in civil war becomes a wasteland. Every city or house torn apart by divisions will collapse. 26 If Satan throws out Satan, he is at war with himself. How then can his kingdom endure? 27 And if I throw out demons by the authority of Beelzebul, then by whose authority do your followers throw them out? Therefore, they will be your judges. 28 But if I throw out demons by the power of God’s Spirit, then God’s kingdom has already overtaken you. 29 Can people go into a house that belongs to a strong man and steal his possessions, unless they first tie up the strong man? Then they can rob his house. 30 Whoever isn’t with me is against me, and whoever doesn’t gather with me scatters.

31 “Therefore, I tell you that people will be forgiven for every sin and insult to God. But insulting the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Human One[d] will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven, not in this age or in the age that is coming."

(Matthew chapter 12, New English Bible translation.)

Now let's consider what, in context, the words "insulting the Holy Spirit" mean. What is Jesus talking about here? Is he talking about someone hearing someone else talking about "the holy spirit" and saying something naughty about the critter bearing that name? No, he's talking about a slanderous attitude towards a manifestation of divine power: casting out devils.

The Pharisees accused him of casting out devils using the power of the prince of devils. Jesus' counter was a bit of reasoning: that if they were right, good times were at hand, because it meant Hell was in civil war and would not long stand; but on the other hand, if Jesus cast out devils by the power of God, then again good news was at hand, because the Kingdom of God was right before their eyes.

So what, in context is the insulting of the Holy Spirit? It's the rejection of God's power, thinking that it is coming from something evil. It's not a matter of names. It's a matter of rejecting the presence and influence of God.

When someone makes a joke about the "Holy Spirit," that's NOT insulting the Holy Spirit as Jesus meant it here. But when someone calls God, as experienced in the context of another religious path, diabolical -- that is. And even more, when you reject the power of God within you, because he seems to be telling you something heretical, or because you fear he might be the Devil -- that is. And it's unforgivable not because it's especially heinous or because God laid down some silly rule about it, but because it is, in the very doing, a REJECTION of forgiveness.

There is a problem with Jesus reasoning here.

Let us assume(for logic sake) Jesus is an agent of the devil. It does not take much planning on the devil part to trick people into following his agent. All the devil has to do is orders his demon to abandon what ever person they possess if Jesus or anyone Jesus has marked to cast them out.

Why would the devil do this? To trick others into following his agent. The appearance of civil war is only to persuade you into following his agent.

Of course, this is a hypothetical situation. But it is possible for the demons to leave a person upon command if there exist a larger plan at work by the devil.

 

[hortysir]

Is Jesus not referred to as The Word?

One only has to get as far as John 1:1 to disprove your claim.

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Good question.

Who refers to Jesus as the WORD? And exactly what is the WORD?

Also, let us make sure that John 1:1 is literal as can be, since there are instances that the authors of the Gospel tend to use lots of confusing literary devices.

The post just above yours tells you that Jesus is the Word in John 5:7