Zone1 Transgenderism DEBATE: Michael Knowles vs Brad Polumbo (full debate)

[forkup]

See post #66.

If you believe that grooming children from the earliest age by immersing them in an environment where coercion and indoctrination are tactics used to push them towards transitioning, I certainly can’t accept that.

I have to note that the most concerted efforts at transitioning children come from one identifiable political affiliation and from the most extreme element of that affiliation. There was a time when the public school mission was focused on education, not attempts to ignore 1,000,000 years of mammalian biology and certainly not to use sinister and dishonest tactics to separate children from their parents.

Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked. Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race.

This is how the dictionary describes them. So I looked at your article. And then I Looked to the link in the article leading to the actual curriculum.

Guess what what the articles says the curriculum teaches is at the very least misleading.

And no, nobody is trying to ignore 1000000 years of biology. What is being said is that biology is not the only think determining sexual identity.

For instance would you feel ok telling a gay person that he really doesn't love his husband because it doesn't make biological sense?

 

[JoeB131]

Non traditional (homosexual) relationships are anti-traditional. They have absolutely nothing to do with tradition which is heterosexual coupling. Just call it what it is, abnormal. We can be tolerant of abnormalities and are for the most part accepting until you try to sell your abnormality as normal.

Actually, if you want to go to "Tradition", it was acceptable for husbands to beat their wives.
Wives were considered little more than property to be handed off from father to husband (traditions that still exist in the marriage ceremony in "giving away the bride" and "Carrying over the threshold". )
Women weren't allowed to own property in their own name, had to tolerate their husband's infidelities (while suffering severe consequences if they cheated themselves).

If we are talking about "tradition"...

How's this for a crazy idea. Whatever consenting adults do in their own time is their own business.

You guys talk about liberty all day, but what you usually mean is the ability of those with money and privilege to abuse the rest of us without the government stepping in.

If you believe that grooming children from the earliest age by immersing them in an environment where coercion and indoctrination are tactics used to push them towards transitioning, I certainly can’t accept that.

Nobody is doing that. You must live in a strange world where you think all it takes to make a kid trans is to have a trans person read a story to them once.

I was subjected to 12 years of Catholic Propaganda and Dogma. yet by the time I was 20, I was completely through with Catholicism and have probably set foot in Catholic Churches less than a dozen times in 40 years. (Mostly to support relatives who still are.)

People just aren't that malleable.

 

[HeyNorm]

My conscience is perfectly fine. That's precisely why I don't have to hide behind loaded terms and fallacious arguments.

Take this " it's not proper" argument. I don't think you have a problem with taking a kid to a beach we're people are much more undressed than in a drag show. Or for that matter having them watch some artist dancing on a stage in much the same kinds of clothes.

If you are religious I'm sure you want them to read the bible. A book that has some very questionable moral stances.

The entire problem with drag shows is that " they aren't normal"

In other words you personally feel qualified to decide what norms are and are perfectly willing to demand from everybody else they adhere to those norms.

The entire problem with drag shows is that the men in them, appropriate womens traits, degrade women and then folks like you say you can’t degrade drag queens just because that degrade women.

It’s frightening that this actually has to be explained

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Why is it bad to accept people as they are.

Because they don’t accept themselves, and take risks to run from it.

If adults want to go off into the corner and do what they do, I don’t think much of anyone will say they’re not allowed. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

But they aren’t to be promoted and celebrated, because like smoking or anorexia it’s a bad/misguided mental state or action. Mind you, People aren’t entitled to support just because if they don’t get it they feel horrible/alone. That actually reveals how fragile and wrong the ideology is.

Meanwhile, the data displays that their dysphoria will likely cause depression/confusion/excessive turmoil and the likelihood of them committing suicide is way higher. This is the effects of convincing people to aggressively push away from mental/physical biological synergy.

Basically, go ahead and do your thing as an adult, I won’t stop you, but IMO it’s risky behavior that shouldn’t be done (gasp! A basic opinion on a topic).. And children should be coaxed away and protected from its harm.. just like smoking.

 

[HeyNorm]

Because they don’t accept themselves, and take risks to run from it.

If adults want to go off into the corner and do what they do, I don’t think much of anyone will say they’re not allowed. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

But they aren’t to be promoted and celebrated, because like smoking or anorexia it’s a bad/misguided mental state or action. Mind you, People aren’t entitled to support just because if they don’t get it they feel horrible/alone. That actually reveals how fragile and wrong the ideology is.

Meanwhile, the data displays that their dysphoria will likely cause depression/confusion/excessive turmoil and the likelihood of them committing suicide is way higher. This is the effects of convincing people to aggressively push away from mental/physical biological synergy.

Basically, go ahead and do your thing as an adult, I won’t stop you, but IMO it’s risky behavior that shouldn’t be done (gasp! A basic opinion on a topic).. And children should be coaxed away and protected from its harm.. just like smoking.

Well stated. There are many laws on the books prohibiting an action (smoking) from children. No reason that another action (trans) shouldn’t be treated in the same manner.

 

[Hollie]

Actually, if you want to go to "Tradition", it was acceptable for husbands to beat their wives.
Wives were considered little more than property to be handed off from father to husband (traditions that still exist in the marriage ceremony in "giving away the bride" and "Carrying over the threshold". )
Women weren't allowed to own property in their own name, had to tolerate their husband's infidelities (while suffering severe consequences if they cheated themselves).

If we are talking about "tradition"...

How's this for a crazy idea. Whatever consenting adults do in their own time is their own business.

You guys talk about liberty all day, but what you usually mean is the ability of those with money and privilege to abuse the rest of us without the government stepping in.


Nobody is doing that. You must live in a strange world where you think all it takes to make a kid trans is to have a trans person read a story to them once.

I was subjected to 12 years of Catholic Propaganda and Dogma. yet by the time I was 20, I was completely through with Catholicism and have probably set foot in Catholic Churches less than a dozen times in 40 years. (Mostly to support relatives who still are.)

People just aren't that malleable.

One again we see that delusions that afflict the extreme left. "Nobody's doing that" obviously conflicts with the fact that leftist groomers are doing exactly that. Any number of states have existing laws or pending laws to limit sexually explicit material used by schools to groom children.

Denial and ignorance on your part doesn't require anyone else to accept such nonsense.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

And no, nobody is trying to ignore 1000000 years of biology. What is being said is that biology is not the only think determining sexual identity.

For instance would you feel ok telling a gay person that he really doesn't love his husband because it doesn't make biological sense?

Attraction to others and gender dysphoria to one’s self are two completely different things.

Dont you agree?

 

[Seymour Flops]

Thank you for making my point. First of you are asserting that you have more authority to decide who a person is than they themselves do. Something that is extremely presumptuous and a weird stance by someone who claims they are libertarian.

I'm fine with drag performers and other sexially oriented entertainers including prostitutes if They aren't coerced. Just leave the kids out of it.

Why is that hard?

Second by drawing the comparison to Nazism you are showing just how much this entire stance you are having is simply based on an irrational reaction to people who are different.

Nazis gassed those who were different to them. How's that for irony?

Oh I forgot. Only Republicans can be called Nazis.

People who put on blackface to do minstrel shows are just people also. Are you fine with kids watching them perform?

 

[Hollie]

Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked. Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race.

This is how the dictionary describes them. So I looked at your article. And then I Looked to the link in the article leading to the actual curriculum.

Guess what what the articles says the curriculum teaches is at the very least misleading.

And no, nobody is trying to ignore 1000000 years of biology. What is being said is that biology is not the only think determining sexual identity.

For instance would you feel ok telling a gay person that he really doesn't love his husband because it doesn't make biological sense?

I think there is an obvious need to separate the "feelings" based tenets of emotion and self-image from the reality of human biology. Someone who "feels" they are the opposite sex and may outwardly present themselves as such cannot change their biological sex.

Some of this needs to be addressed in blunt and unemotional terms. There are two genders. That is a fact of mammalian biology. There are immutable traits that define male and female.

As to the whole "sexual identity" argument, let's understand that such an argument is based, ultimately, upon emotion and not biology.

It's quite a reckoning for some but we live in a Darwinian world, not a platonic one.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Can anyone who is into the transgender fad even Define the term gender? I know what gender is in language and I know what sex is in biology, so what is gender when speaking of humans? Can you define it without using the biological terms female and male?

 

[forkup]

Because they don’t accept themselves, and take risks to run from it.

If adults want to go off into the corner and do what they do, I don’t think much of anyone will say they’re not allowed. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

But they aren’t to be promoted and celebrated, because like smoking or anorexia it’s a bad/misguided mental state or action. Mind you, People aren’t entitled to support just because if they don’t get it they feel horrible/alone. That actually reveals how fragile and wrong the ideology is.

Meanwhile, the data displays that their dysphoria will likely cause depression/confusion/excessive turmoil and the likelihood of them committing suicide is way higher. This is the effects of convincing people to aggressively push away from mental/physical biological synergy.

Basically, go ahead and do your thing as an adult, I won’t stop you, but IMO it’s risky behavior that shouldn’t be done (gasp! A basic opinion on a topic).. And children should be coaxed away and protected from its harm.. just like smoking.

Meanwhile, the data displays that their dysphoria will likely cause depression/confusion/excessive turmoil and the likelihood of them committing suicide is way higher. This is the effects of convincing people to aggressively push away from mental/physical biological synergy.

This is ass backwards. The reason for the turmoil is not that they are being pushed away from their "biological synergy" it's that people like you are taking active steps to marginalize them.

The fact that you think that people somehow become suicidal because they aren't comfortable with their gender and are willing to do something about it, and not because a good deal of society calls them names like " groomer" because of it, is either dishonest or delusional.

Attraction to others and gender dysphoria to one’s self are two completely different things.

Dont you agree?

Paul Camaron

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2466/pr0.104.2.649-659

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2466/pr0.1986.58.1.327

Pat Buchanan

History of the Anti-Gay Movement Since 1977

Read a timeline of the radical right's thirty-year crusade against homosexuality.

www.splcenter.org

The arguments are nearly identical. What does that tell you?

 

[forkup]

I think there is an obvious need to separate the "feelings" based tenets of emotion and self-image from the reality of human biology. Someone who "feels" they are the opposite sex and may outwardly present themselves as such cannot change their biological sex.

Some of this needs to be addressed in blunt and unemotional terms. There are two genders. That is a fact of mammalian biology. There are immutable traits that define male and female.

As to the whole "sexual identity" argument, let's understand that such an argument is based, ultimately, upon emotion and not biology.

It's quite a reckoning for some but we live in a Darwinian world, not a platonic one.

We don't live in a Darwinian world. A Darwinian world doesn't have monogamy, disabled people, law and order, culture or technology of any kind. In fact, it is the decoupling from the Darwinian world that has made the human species unique and so successful.

We have developed incredibly complex social constructs, just so we can escape the purely Darwinian struggle for survival.

As to separating feelings from human biology. Has it occurred to you that your opposition to OTHER people being able to simply decide who they want to be is based on "feelings" of fear of things that are different? Maybe it's worth asking the question how much of your antipathy stems from rational objections and how much out of irrational fear.

 

[Hollie]

We don't live in a Darwinian world. A Darwinian world doesn't have monogamy, disabled people, law and order, culture or technology of any kind. In fact, it is the decoupling from the Darwinian world that has made the human species unique and so successful.

We have developed incredibly complex social constructs, just so we can escape the purely Darwinian struggle for survival.

As to separating feelings from human biology. Has it occurred to you that your opposition to OTHER people being able to simply decide who they want to be is based on "feelings" of fear of things that are different? Maybe it's worth asking the question how much of your antipathy stems from rational objections and how much out of irrational fear.

If we don't live in a Darwinian world, I would sure hope you could identify the world you inhabit. You seem to have this notion that a Darwinian world is one of a struggle for survival. That's not the case. The point is, such things as common ancestry, inherited traits, male and female are pretty basic concepts in every aspect of life on his planet and are a function of biological evolution. I would note that monogamous relationships occur in male amd female species other than humans. I would also note that disabled people are either male or female. Their biology is readily identified. As to "law and order, culture or technology", those are most readily seen in human societies because of our sentience. However, one can see order in nature among animal species, just progressivey less organized.

People can choose to be whoever and whatever they want to be. I'm under no obligation to accept the claim that a biological male or female can transform from one into the other because they have "feelings". Possessing a uterus is a uniquely female trait. No amount of feelings or surgery will make a biological male a female.

In terms of irrational fear, that irrationality seems to haunt those who insist that everyone else must kowtow to their "feelings".

 

[Blaster]

the only reason that transgenders commit suicide (and it's nowhere near 40%) is because of having to deal with bigots like you.



Except they've done the science and discovered transgender brains are wired closer to their identified sex than their assigned sex.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

More nonsense.

 

[Leo123]

My conscience is perfectly fine. That's precisely why I don't have to hide behind loaded terms and fallacious arguments.

Take this " it's not proper" argument. I don't think you have a problem with taking a kid to a beach we're people are much more undressed than in a drag show. Or for that matter having them watch some artist dancing on a stage in much the same kinds of clothes.

If you are religious I'm sure you want them to read the bible. A book that has some very questionable moral stances.

The entire problem with drag shows is that " they aren't normal"

In other words you personally feel qualified to decide what norms are and are perfectly willing to demand from everybody else they adhere to those norms.

Kids aren’t allowed in bars with pole dancers either.

 

[forkup]

I'm fine with drag performers and other sexially oriented entertainers including prostitutes if They aren't coerced. Just leave the kids out of it.

Why is that hard?

Oh I forgot. Only Republicans can be called Nazis.

People who put on blackface to do minstrel shows are just people also. Are you fine with kids watching them perform?

I'm fine with drag performers and other sexially oriented entertainers including prostitutes if They aren't coerced. Just leave the kids out of it.

Let me see if you can smell the BS? " I don't have problem with black people. I just don't want my kids to meet any."

Oh I forgot. Only Republicans can be called Nazis.

You can call anybody, anything. I just don't think somebody trying to argue as to how it's ok to marginalize people who they don't like, should do so by accusing those who don't like them doing that, of being people who literally killed the same group when they were in power.

 

[forkup]

Kids aren’t allowed in bars with pole dancers either.

Sure, a drag show is not a strip act. So, what's your point? Kids for instance are allowed on a beach in which people were less clothes than those who perform in drag.

 

[forkup]

If we don't live in a Darwinian world, I would sure hope you could identify the world you inhabit. You seem to have this notion that a Darwinian world is one of a struggle for survival. That's not the case. The point is, such things as common ancestry, inherited traits, male and female are pretty basic concepts in every aspect of life on his planet and are a function of biological evolution. I would note that monogamous relationships occur in male amd female species other than humans. I would also note that disabled people are either male or female. Their biology is readily identified. As to "law and order, culture or technology", those are most readily seen in human societies because of our sentience. However, one can see order in nature among animal species, just progressivey less organized.

People can choose to be whoever and whatever they want to be. I'm under no obligation to accept the claim that a biological male or female can transform from one into the other because they have "feelings". Possessing a uterus is a uniquely female trait. No amount of feelings or surgery will make a biological male a female.

In terms of irrational fear, that irrationality seems to haunt those who insist that everyone else must kowtow to their "feelings".

You seem to have this notion that a Darwinian world is one of a struggle for survival. That's not the case.

Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce.

It's not a "notion" it is the definition of the term. You seem to have a tendency to try to appropriate words in order to fit your argument.

People can choose to be whoever and whatever they want to be. I'm under no obligation to accept the claim

This is true. It works both ways though in case you haven't noticed. And NOBODY on my side is trying to legislate to force the other side to adhere to my point of view. The same cannot be said for your side.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Let me see if you can smell the BS? " I don't have problem with black people. I just don't want my kids to meet any."

Wow! You seriously compare drag performers to black people? You compare being a prostitute and other sexually oriented entertainers to being black?

Are you at least aware that black people do not choose to be black aware that black people do not choose to be black as sexual performers choose to be sexual performers?

You can call anybody, anything. I just don't think somebody trying to argue as to how it's ok to marginalize people who they don't like, should do so by accusing those who don't like them doing that, of being people who literally killed the same group when they were in power.

So what about the blackface analogy? That seems spot on to me, how about you?

Or maybe you think that women are fair game for ridicule and mocking?

 

[BS Filter]

Actually, if you want to go to "Tradition", it was acceptable for husbands to beat their wives.
Wives were considered little more than property to be handed off from father to husband (traditions that still exist in the marriage ceremony in "giving away the bride" and "Carrying over the threshold". )
Women weren't allowed to own property in their own name, had to tolerate their husband's infidelities (while suffering severe consequences if they cheated themselves).

If we are talking about "tradition"...

How's this for a crazy idea. Whatever consenting adults do in their own time is their own business.

You guys talk about liberty all day, but what you usually mean is the ability of those with money and privilege to abuse the rest of us without the government stepping in.


Nobody is doing that. You must live in a strange world where you think all it takes to make a kid trans is to have a trans person read a story to them once.

I was subjected to 12 years of Catholic Propaganda and Dogma. yet by the time I was 20, I was completely through with Catholicism and have probably set foot in Catholic Churches less than a dozen times in 40 years. (Mostly to support relatives who still are.)

People just aren't that malleable.

You can do whatever the hell you want, but you're not going to be allowed to influence children with your nasty vile agenda. You silly nasty twats can't seem to get that through your mushbrain heads.