TN: Miscarriage will be murder

[BDBoop]

The next step is allowing strong family members to determine if their incapacitated loved (I use that term loosely) ones are really "alive"....

If they determine they aren't, why then....

I'm not banking on anyone having the strength to do that for me. If dementia is involved, I'm taking a snow nap in the north woods.

Would you remember where the north woods are?

My sister said she'd help me, and vice-versa. We're only 13 months apart in age. Here's hoping we're both not hit at the same time.

 

[Vidi]

No, it doesn't. The unborn's life isn't dependent upon whether it is wanted or not; it is a human life from the get go, planned or unplanned; wanted or not wanted. To claim anything else is simply justification for the destruction of a human life . . . to claim the unborn as 'not human' is nothing more than pro-choice rubbish in order to hide from the truth.

"It's not a human if I want to kill it but it is a human if you want to kill it."

It's a legal determination only. Legally contradictions are allowed. Ethically, though, I do see it as a contradiction, which is why I asked for some to explain it, without the partisan bullshit.

Look, I get it. Personally, I'm pro life. If its MY kid, it's life. But if it's someone else's child, they have to make that determination for themselves, so that makes me pro choice politically.

So when legally blacks weren't considered human, they weren't human?

Wow. They only became human once the law recognized them as such?

Interesting.

But not surprising. Culture of death, leftists embrace you.

I also would like to point out something...I have said repeatedly through the years that the left condones abortion because they believe they should be able to dictate who should live and die. Vidi is a classic example...HE determines whether HIS child is alive or not, and he wants to maintain that power.

False equivalency.

You're projecting again

 

[AnonymousIV]

Oh I think the self-righteous conservatives should understand, life begins with a jolt. The "quickening" of the fetus. But when a jolt takes out a fetus, it's murder. I think either way, the entry into this world hurts equally as compared to the termination of a pregnancy. Bottom line is, it's an individual decision. You are no one to tell me I am the lesser. The balance in this matter has been lop-sided since day go. Life fucking hurts. You ignore the harm life does to people. Compare the pain in your life to a small jolt of pain. God is there, he knows your heart. But you want to legislate to encourage life long pain. As a parent and a person with delusional disorder, yes, I would say, be selective in your reproducing. If you don't like psychopaths then why are you charging murder when a concerned citizen takes appropriate action. I chose the side of the veil my offspring would be on. I don't think that decision "physically and mentally" hurt my children, as much as living in society with people like you.

 

[hortysir]

The wording is too loose. I've had a miscarriage. My daughter has had a miscarriage. So - what? We'd be in deep serious? Because we 'might' have done something to harm the fetus?

Add TN HB 3517 to the list.

The Tennessee House last week voted 80-18 to make miscarriage — or the killing of any fertilized egg — murder. Last night, the Tennessee Senate passed by a 28-2 margin a companion version of the bill. The bill specifically includes all embryos “at any state of gestation in utero.” Tennessee’s Republican Governor Bill Haslam has not indicated if he will sign the bill.

To be clear, this bill goes further than covering, say, a violent attacker harming an expectant mother who then, unfortunately, miscarries. This bill, House Bill 3517 and the Senate’s companion, makes anyone’s actions that presumably cause a miscarriage murder. Opponents of the bill question how law enforcement would actually enforce this law or determine if someone’s action was a direct cause of a miscarriage.

Tennessee: Miscarriage Will Be Murder — Legislature Passes Embryo Bill | The New Civil Rights Movement

The bill has already been amended. It no longer applies to the pregnant woman or any doctor performing procedures with the consent of the pregnant woman.

 

[PredFan]

Really? You liberals will post anything that keeps us from discussing obama's failed presidency.

Tennessee isn't going to stop abortions, or prohibit contraception, or arrest anyone for a miscarriage.

You lefties are officially bat shit crazy.

 

[BDBoop]

Really? You liberals will post anything that keeps us from discussing obama's failed presidency.

Tennessee isn't going to stop abortions, or prohibit contraception, or arrest anyone for a miscarriage.

You lefties are officially bat shit crazy.

Yes, because ALL that matters in the world is Obama v Mittens.

 

[PredFan]

The wording is too loose. I've had a miscarriage. My daughter has had a miscarriage. So - what? We'd be in deep serious? Because we 'might' have done something to harm the fetus?

Add TN HB 3517 to the list.

Tennessee: Miscarriage Will Be Murder — Legislature Passes Embryo Bill | The New Civil Rights Movement

The bill has already been amended. It no longer applies to the pregnant woman or any doctor performing procedures with the consent of the pregnant woman.

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

 

[BDBoop]

What was posted:

The wording is too loose. I've had a miscarriage. My daughter has had a miscarriage. So - what? We'd be in deep serious? Because we 'might' have done something to harm the fetus?

The bill has already been amended. It no longer applies to the pregnant woman or any doctor performing procedures with the consent of the pregnant woman.

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

What came across:

*covered ears* "LALALALALALALALAAAA!!!"

 

[koshergrl]

What was posted:

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

What came across:

*covered ears* "LALALALALALALALAAAA!!!"

 

[Valerie]

The problem people have with this is the legitimate concern of protecting women from the slippery slope of being open to all sorts of accusations while they are pregnant...

 

[hortysir]

What was posted:

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

What came across:

*covered ears* "LALALALALALALALAAAA!!!"

Yes, that's exactly what you heard when you read the bill and this thread, because it says nothing about prosecuting mothers for miscarrying.

 

[Newby]

The problem people have with this is the legitimate concern of protecting women from the slippery slope of being open to all sorts of accusations while they are pregnant...

That doesn't make any sense, because the pregnant woman is who determines whether the baby lives or dies. She's perfectly able to go have an abortion if she doesn't want the baby without any repercussions at all, so why would a woman be charged with murder in the case of her own miscarriage. As I said earlier, the mother decides if the child growing in her womb is a life or not simply by the decision she makes to keep it or abort it. What this bill says is that no one else gets to make that decision but her. So, I think you have it backwards.

 

[BDBoop]

What was posted:

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

What came across:

*covered ears* "LALALALALALALALAAAA!!!"

Ya know what? That tells me you don't have shit to say, but you cannot resist the urge to post. That's what that means.

If you had something to contribute, you would.

But you don't.

 

[BDBoop]

The problem people have with this is the legitimate concern of protecting women from the slippery slope of being open to all sorts of accusations while they are pregnant...

Yeah, miscarriages are fun enough without people standing by in judgement, hoping to tell you what you did to bring it on yourself.

Then there's the attendant jail time.

 

[Vidi]

The wording is too loose. I've had a miscarriage. My daughter has had a miscarriage. So - what? We'd be in deep serious? Because we 'might' have done something to harm the fetus?

The bill has already been amended. It no longer applies to the pregnant woman or any doctor performing procedures with the consent of the pregnant woman.

Of course it's crap. The left will do anything to steer all conversation away from obama's failed presidency.

Obama has overhauled the food safety system

Advanced women's rights in the work place

Ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) in our military

Stopped defending DOMA in court.

Passed the Hate Crimes bill.

Appointed two pro-choice women to the Supreme Court.

Expanded access to medical care and provided subsidies for people who can't afford it.

Expanded the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP)

Fixed the preexisting conditions travesty [and rescissions] in health insurance.
Invested in clean energy.

Overhauled the credit card industry, making it much more consumer-friendly.

While Dodd-Frank bill was weak in many respects, it was still an extremely worthwhile start at re-regulating the financial sector.

He created a Elizabeth Warren's dream agency: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

He got help for people whose health was injured during the clean-up after the 9/11 attacks.*

He's killed Osama Bin Laden

Eliminated several other Al-Qaeda leaders

Ended the War in Iraq

Begun the drawdown of forces from Afghanistan

End-run Republican obstructionism by recess-appointing Richard Cordray to run the Consumer Financial Protection Board.






Yeah...he failed.

 

[Newby]

The problem people have with this is the legitimate concern of protecting women from the slippery slope of being open to all sorts of accusations while they are pregnant...

Yeah, miscarriages are fun enough without people standing by in judgement, hoping to tell you what you did to bring it on yourself.

Then there's the attendant jail time.

What a drama queen u are...

 

[BDBoop]

Women jailed for miscarriages — RT

 

[Clementine]

Because, once again, it's government legislating a woman's personal medical condition. That's why the reaction.

But you can see his point right?

Its a good one.

If its life in the case of murder of the mother, why is it not life if its a case of abortion?

Personally, though I am pro choice, Ive always felt that contradiction needs to be answered.

The only reason I can see for the difference is that if the woman wants the baby, it's murder if someone causes her to lose it, but if she doesn't want the baby, it's her right to abort the pregnancy herself.

All depends on whether the baby is wanted or not.

 

[Liability]

Just to be clear. Here is the TN 1st degree murder law:

39-13-202. First degree murder.

(a) First degree murder is:

(1) A premeditated and intentional killing of another;

(2) A killing of another committed in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect, rape of a child, aggravated rape of a child or aircraft piracy; or

(3) A killing of another committed as the result of the unlawful throwing, placing or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.

(b) No culpable mental state is required for conviction under subdivision (a)(2) or (a)(3), except the intent to commit the enumerated offenses or acts in those subdivisions.

* * * *

THE NEW law (not yet signed into law by the Governor, apparently) reads in pertinent part: See, Bill Text: TN House Bill 3517 - 107th General Assembly | LegiScan

39-13-202 is directly impacted by the new law, Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 39-13-214, is amended by deleting subsection (a) in its entirety and substituting in its place the language quoted above.

The section which would be changed has read (and will continue to read as follows until/unless the Governor signs it and the date for its effectiveness then arrives):

2010 Tennessee Code
Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
Chapter 13 - Offenses Against Person
Part 2 - Criminal Homicide
39-13-214 - Viable fetus as victim.


39-13-214. Viable fetus as victim.

(a) For purposes of this part, “another” and “another person” include a viable fetus of a human being, when any such term refers to the victim of any act made criminal by the provisions of this part.

39-13-214 - Viable fetus as victim. :: 2010 Tennessee Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

Taken together, then, the law is pretty clear. It amends a criminal (murder 1st degree) statute to now explicitly cover a viable fetus as a human being in relation to criminal acts committed against a pregnant woman which cause the viable fetus to be miscarried.

Thank you.

Seeing the legislation, there is a clear distinction.

A criminal act must be committed for the fetus to be considered life and therefore a human being. Provided that a doctor performed abortion is legal, a doctor aborted fetus would not be considered a human being.

This legislation allows for the prosecution of criminals without changing the rights of a woman to choose. I can foresee a year or two down the road there will be some weird application of this law that will cause a national stir, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

That being said, I still feel that life in one instance but not another is a contradiction.


Anyone care to explain the distinction? ( without the partisan bullshit.)

Yes.

In fact, if you read the proposed law (pending the Governor's signature) it goes out of its way to reaffirm that abortion remains legal.

As for your question, without partisanship, here is my "answer."

Since the OBJECTIVE is to criminalize the criminal acts of someone who would cause injury to another person (in this case, murder), the "victim" has to BE a "person" for the law to work. Because abortion laws make it questionable whether a fetus is a "person," it is deemed necessary to legislatively DEFINE "person" -- under these specific circumstances -- as INCLUDING a fetus.

Under other circumstances, a fetus simply does not meet the definition -- by design.

But under these criminal circumstances, a fetus DOES meet the definition.

It is precisely the differing circumstances that the law was trying to reach.

Beyond that, no. I can't answer your question. But I have ZERO problem with Tennessee striving to accomplish that otherwise contradictory outcome.

 

[Valerie]

The problem people have with this is the legitimate concern of protecting women from the slippery slope of being open to all sorts of accusations while they are pregnant...

That doesn't make any sense, because the pregnant woman is who determines whether the baby lives or dies. She's perfectly able to go have an abortion if she doesn't want the baby without any repercussions at all, so why would a woman be charged with murder in the case of her own miscarriage. As I said earlier, the mother decides if the child growing in her womb is a life or not simply by the decision she makes to keep it or abort it. What this bill says is that no one else gets to make that decision but her. So, I think you have it backwards.

The mother does not choose whether it is life or not, the mother chooses whether or not to abort her pregnancy legally, meaning prior to the viability of the fetus. Miscarriage would not qualify as such and could occur after the point of viability as well...

Blackmun's opinion acknowledged that states had some valid interests in regulating abortion. The opinion divided pregnancy into three periods, or trimesters. During the first trimester the woman had an essentially unrestricted right to choose abortion in consultation with her physician; thus, Blackmun held, the hospitalization and committee requirements of the more “liberal” state laws were unconstitutional. During the second trimester, when according to medical experts abortion posed a greater threat to a woman's health, states could regulate abortion to protect her health. Only in the third trimester was the state's interest in protecting the potential life of the fetus great enough to warrant severe restrictions on abortion, and even then, the Court held, states must permit abortions to save a woman's life. In the course of this analysis, Blackmun's opinion stated that because of uncertainty about the medical and moral status of the fetus, the states could not adopt a particular theory of when life begins—they could not decide, for example, that because life begins at conception fetuses have the same rights as newborn infants.

Roe v. Wade: Definition from Answers.com