The Vietnam War

[JBvM]

Originally posted by JBvM
Please try and be honest by starting to put forth whole truths. Ho's troops were fighting for their own land, but against their own people too. Just like the American Revolution or Civil War.

All sides commit acts of terrible consequence, when the dogs of war are unleashed. I've met people who spent time in the Victorious North Vietnamese camps after the US fled. I've met people who fought on all sides in Vietnam and in El Salvador. One lesson the same: the people, the ones caught in the middle -- can't stand righteous fucks like you or he governments who took a side.

As one El Salvadorian guy told me "We saw people from the US supporting and arming both sides" "We hated you all"

I agree with at least 50% of your summation of wars in general and the Vietnam War in particular, JBvM. : )

thank you José

I believe we all need to discuss things in a fuller context. It's difficult sometimes because that demands putting aside ideological and political partisanship for the purposes of an honest discussion

But demanding a fuller context can also be used as a tactic to force trolls and others to become honest, or become bigger fools, or just leave, stay silent

 

[JBvM]

Deny, deny, deny ….Truman was an asshole....Oh yeah, dropped two atomic bombs thus killing over 4000,000 innocent Japanese...

stop being such an idiot

Truman? I don't really have anything invested in defending his being, a-hole or not

 

[harmonica]

I'm watching it on PBS.

I'd like to talk about it. With someone.

seemed good at first, then the bodies came back

Was it a war about nothing?

But it's easy to look back and judge by today's context.

wasted lives/etc
the SV government/etc was corrupt/murderous/etc
they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one including murder
...plus many more coups and attempted coups --this was 1963 to 1965--so it was plain as day this was a next to impossible war to win = in 1963
...I remember a video of Morley Safer reporting from a village in SV ''early'' in the war--he said something like ''I don't see how we can win this war like this''
..the French lost before us--with our help
etc etc

 

[whitehall]

LBJ sent Troops to Vietnam on a faked bogus "crisis". The knee jerk media backed him at first like they back all democrats and he set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. Just when it seemed that the strategy of wearing down the V.C. might be working, LBJ quit the effort and gave General Giap breathing room and recruiting opportunities. Meanwhile unelected and unappointed clerks in the CIA were in charge and the Generals stood back and took the flack.

 

[harmonica]

Are you talking about the Ken Burns mockumentary? I watched some of it until has Left Wing bias showed, and he started to demonize the U.S. and make Ho, and his soldiers look like choir boys.

but weren't
Ho, and his soldiers

patriots, fighting on their own land?

yes against the Japanese, then the French, then the US

 

[Pilot1]

LBJ sent Troops to Vietnam on a faked bogus "crisis". The knee jerk media backed him at first like they back all democrats and he set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. Just when it seemed that the strategy of wearing down the V.C. might be working, LBJ quit the effort and gave General Giap breathing room and recruiting opportunities. Meanwhile unelected and unappointed clerks in the CIA were in charge and the Generals stood back and took the flack.

Some think the Gulf of Tonkin incident was either staged or the U.S. purposely over reacted to get us into a war. I am not saying the Navy did it, as they were following orders from the White House. I put the blame squarely on LBJ.

 

[harmonica]

A failed military escapade that cost 50,000 American lives.

Disgusting!

You can thank J Kennedy and L Johnson for that fiasco, not to mention Truman who should of told France to fuck off when Ho Chi asked for Vietnams freedom...France got their ass handed to them again, JFK sent in troops to see how bad, France bailed out, like the pussies they are, then LBJ went full war monger, so his military buddies could make billions while killing off young men, making his economy look better..

yeah, let us leave out IKE and all the conservatives and Republicans that backed it and advocated for it and called anyone who questioned it - a traitor

next

unworthy of discussion.. who cares what leftie pbs whore Ken Burns says -- oh wignuts do. All of a sudden what a leftie says is truth and ... okay

anyone over a certain age who needed Burns to teach them about Vietnam, is a friggin a-hole who has been living in a cave for most of their lives

Ike didnt put boots on the ground, it was JFK, Again, if Truman would of said NO to France and told them to kick sand and get the fuck out of Vietnam, there wouldn't of been a war, but as usual you libfucks cant pull your heads out of your asses and understand that the Democrats fucked US real good.

Oh .. it has to be boots on the ground now?

you can spin your nonsense all day long, every day until the sun ceases to shine .. and it will still come out as not exactly shit - but warm diarrhea in a dixie cup.

which only goes to show, you can't even accomplish a good shit

Deny, deny, deny ….Truman was an asshole....Oh yeah, dropped two atomic bombs thus killing over 4000,000 innocent Japanese...

ending the war is what he did
what would've been your solution? the Japanese were NOT surrendering
they still did not want to AFTER the Abombs--the vote was tied 3-3!!!!!!
let's hear your solution

 

[Mindful]

You can thank J Kennedy and L Johnson for that fiasco, not to mention Truman who should of told France to fuck off when Ho Chi asked for Vietnams freedom...France got their ass handed to them again, JFK sent in troops to see how bad, France bailed out, like the pussies they are, then LBJ went full war monger, so his military buddies could make billions while killing off young men, making his economy look better..

yeah, let us leave out IKE and all the conservatives and Republicans that backed it and advocated for it and called anyone who questioned it - a traitor

next

unworthy of discussion.. who cares what leftie pbs whore Ken Burns says -- oh wignuts do. All of a sudden what a leftie says is truth and ... okay

anyone over a certain age who needed Burns to teach them about Vietnam, is a friggin a-hole who has been living in a cave for most of their lives

Ike didnt put boots on the ground, it was JFK, Again, if Truman would of said NO to France and told them to kick sand and get the fuck out of Vietnam, there wouldn't of been a war, but as usual you libfucks cant pull your heads out of your asses and understand that the Democrats fucked US real good.

Oh .. it has to be boots on the ground now?

you can spin your nonsense all day long, every day until the sun ceases to shine .. and it will still come out as not exactly shit - but warm diarrhea in a dixie cup.

which only goes to show, you can't even accomplish a good shit

Deny, deny, deny ….Truman was an asshole....Oh yeah, dropped two atomic bombs thus killing over 4000,000 innocent Japanese...

ending the war is what he did
what would've been your solution? the Japanese were NOT surrendering
they still did not want to AFTER the Abombs--the vote was tied 3-3!!!!!!
let's hear your solution

I watched the documentary about The War, and in that, the point was made about the atom bomb. The Germans were well on the way to producing one, and also the Japanese. It was a race to whoever got there first.

 

[Third Party]

The Vietnam war is proof that wars of attrition always ends with the rebels winning. Something Americans forgot from the war of attrition called the Revolutionary War.

Judea?

 

[Pilot1]

I watched the documentary about The War, and in that, the point was made about the atom bomb. The Germans were well on the way to producing one, and also the Japanese. It was a race to whoever got there first.

The very scary thing was the Germans had an unmanned delivery system, and were building one that could reach the U.S. Plus if they had been able to get more materials, and fuel even the Allied strategic bombing campaign could have been brought to a halt. Things would have become really ugly, really fast.

 

[JBvM]

LBJ sent Troops to Vietnam on a faked bogus "crisis". The knee jerk media backed him at first like they back all democrats and he set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. Just when it seemed that the strategy of wearing down the V.C. might be working, LBJ quit the effort and gave General Giap breathing room and recruiting opportunities. Meanwhile unelected and unappointed clerks in the CIA were in charge and the Generals stood back and took the flack.

Wow! Revisionist bs!

It was the media that exposed his deceit . and he was still a great man and a great president

and facts are it was the CIA that warned about a losing battle to win the war,.

get yer facts straight troll man

 

[Third Party]

You fellas are more clever than me, but i do remember the old saying "you had to be there". People who were in or around during the war have a unique perspective.

 

[JBvM]

Are you talking about the Ken Burns mockumentary? I watched some of it until has Left Wing bias showed, and he started to demonize the U.S. and make Ho, and his soldiers look like choir boys.

but weren't
Ho, and his soldiers

patriots, fighting on their own land?

yes against the Japanese, then the French, then the US

but you would agree they were not always good guys. That Ho and his troops slaughtered innocents, fellow Vietnamese

 

[JBvM]

LBJ sent Troops to Vietnam on a faked bogus "crisis". The knee jerk media backed him at first like they back all democrats and he set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. Just when it seemed that the strategy of wearing down the V.C. might be working, LBJ quit the effort and gave General Giap breathing room and recruiting opportunities. Meanwhile unelected and unappointed clerks in the CIA were in charge and the Generals stood back and took the flack.

Some think the Gulf of Tonkin incident was either staged or the U.S. purposely over reacted to get us into a war. I am not saying the Navy did it, as they were following orders from the White House. I put the blame squarely on LBJ.

Well we have two links: One for you ; American History for Kids: Gulf of Tonkin Resolution: US History for Kids ***

and we have from the Naval Institute: The Truth About Tonkin | U.S. Naval Institute

On 2 August 1964, North Vietnamese patrol torpedo boats attacked the USS Maddox (DD-731) while the destroyer was in international waters in the Gulf of Tonkin. There is no doubting that fact.​

 

[JBvM]

You can thank J Kennedy and L Johnson for that fiasco, not to mention Truman who should of told France to fuck off when Ho Chi asked for Vietnams freedom...France got their ass handed to them again, JFK sent in troops to see how bad, France bailed out, like the pussies they are, then LBJ went full war monger, so his military buddies could make billions while killing off young men, making his economy look better..

yeah, let us leave out IKE and all the conservatives and Republicans that backed it and advocated for it and called anyone who questioned it - a traitor

next

unworthy of discussion.. who cares what leftie pbs whore Ken Burns says -- oh wignuts do. All of a sudden what a leftie says is truth and ... okay

anyone over a certain age who needed Burns to teach them about Vietnam, is a friggin a-hole who has been living in a cave for most of their lives

Ike didnt put boots on the ground, it was JFK, Again, if Truman would of said NO to France and told them to kick sand and get the fuck out of Vietnam, there wouldn't of been a war, but as usual you libfucks cant pull your heads out of your asses and understand that the Democrats fucked US real good.

Oh .. it has to be boots on the ground now?

you can spin your nonsense all day long, every day until the sun ceases to shine .. and it will still come out as not exactly shit - but warm diarrhea in a dixie cup.

which only goes to show, you can't even accomplish a good shit

Deny, deny, deny ….Truman was an asshole....Oh yeah, dropped two atomic bombs thus killing over 4000,000 innocent Japanese...

ending the war is what he did
what would've been your solution? the Japanese were NOT surrendering
they still did not want to AFTER the Abombs--the vote was tied 3-3!!!!!!
let's hear your solution

I've always asked these people "What would you have done?" assuming they have some facts

 

[JBvM]

I watched the documentary about The War, and in that, the point was made about the atom bomb. The Germans were well on the way to producing one, and also the Japanese. It was a race to whoever got there first.

that is an argument for building a bomb,

not one for how, why and when or where or whether to use it

 

[harmonica]

I watched the documentary about The War, and in that, the point was made about the atom bomb. The Germans were well on the way to producing one, and also the Japanese. It was a race to whoever got there first.

The very scary thing was the Germans had an unmanned delivery system, and were building one that could reach the U.S. Plus if they had been able to get more materials, and fuel even the Allied strategic bombing campaign could have been brought to a halt. Things would have become really ugly, really fast.

the V2 warhead was about 2000 lbs with 200 mile range
Abombs were about 10,000 lbs
you mean they were designing/inventing a delivery system?

the US used graphite to moderate the ''reactor''
the Germans did not
the Germans were not that close to an Abomb and/or a delivery system

At best this would have been far less destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan

The Nazi Nuclear Program – How Close Were the Nazis to Developing an Atomic Bomb?

.....remember--the Allies are not snowmen just sitting there = the bombing of Germany starts to get effective/sizable/sustained/etc into 1944 and 1945 = much harder for the Germans to do anything efficiently/significantly

 

[Mindful]

I watched the documentary about The War, and in that, the point was made about the atom bomb. The Germans were well on the way to producing one, and also the Japanese. It was a race to whoever got there first.

The very scary thing was the Germans had an unmanned delivery system, and were building one that could reach the U.S. Plus if they had been able to get more materials, and fuel even the Allied strategic bombing campaign could have been brought to a halt. Things would have become really ugly, really fast.

I think it was something like that, the logistics of getting the materials. They were already shooting V2 rockets over to England.

 

[JBvM]

You fellas are more clever than me, but i do remember the old saying "you had to be there". People who were in or around during the war have a unique perspective.

especially the ones on the ground who argue military strategy and tactics, as if being in a uniform is equivalent to having attended West Point. LOL

Many are the very same arseholes who will say (on a stool at the end of the bar at Vets club with cheap beers) "What we need is a war" when talking about tough economic times. And some of the same ones who voted for Trump and support pulling troops out of nations and backing pulling out of alliances that have made the world safer - not safe - against all advice of experienced diplomats foreign service personnel and military leaders

 

[harmonica]

Are you talking about the Ken Burns mockumentary? I watched some of it until has Left Wing bias showed, and he started to demonize the U.S. and make Ho, and his soldiers look like choir boys.

but weren't
Ho, and his soldiers

patriots, fighting on their own land?

yes against the Japanese, then the French, then the US

but you would agree they were not always good guys. That Ho and his troops slaughtered innocents, fellow Vietnamese

sure--but this is the same ''problem'' in many conflicts form BC to today
Diem was corrupt/etc