The Truth about Mormons

[JakeStarkey]

An associate and a person I know by reputation are facing excommunication because the LDS Church limits their personal authenticity. The body of Christ, the believers, are and own the church, not self-proclaimed leaders.

"One by one they throw us from the tower. And we spread our wings and fly." Carol Lynn Pearson

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/u...atened-with-excommunication.html?src=twr&_r=1

 

[September]

TC, you look good in that photo You got some sexy hair

 

[emilynghiem]

An associate and a person I know by reputation are facing excommunication because the LDS Church limits their personal authenticity. The body of Christ, the believers, are and own the church, not self-proclaimed leaders.

"One by one they throw us from the tower. And we spread our wings and fly." Carol Lynn Pearson

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/u...atened-with-excommunication.html?src=twr&_r=1

I had trouble following when you are using
"church" to mean the local policies/body
and when you are using
"church" to mean the collective universal whole (ie all humanity as one church)

I would AGREE with you that the people as a whole
define the whole church on that universal scale.

Until we all agree, then the LOCAL church groups and policies depend on THEIR MEMBERS
to define an agreed policy/interpretation for the LOCAL level of "church."

That is where you lost me, because there were conflicting groups/interpretations within the same membership or body.

So when you have a rift between the traditionally recognized leaders
and the members who are represented by a challenging new interpretation,
then only the policy that is IN COMMON represents the church body. The part in conflict is not decided yet.

The conflict would need to be resolved before it is clear what the church policy is on it.
In the meantime, the parts that ARE universally accepted, those are clearly church policy.
I would not give one group more or less authority over another: if they cannot resolve their
differences, let them govern separately and not compete if they both represent people of different views.

 

[emilynghiem]

hey guys let me let you in on a little secret avatar is practicing what in the Mormon church is called priest speak it it's mostly used BY the FLDS (FUNDAMENTALIST MORMONS)
it's was designed to keep you off balance and make it easier for avatar to dodge questions
remember his sources are all mormon sources making them bias....and false...

Hi Daws: regardless of what may or may not be true about Mormon teaching,
when I discuss Constitutional concepts with Avatar, I've received VERY helpful insights.
Just because someone may be biased in one area does not preclude all others!

When Jesus spoke in the Bible about the example of the Good Samaritan,
the affiliation he chose to make his point, the Samaritans, were considered
the most unholy and farthest from God, to the point of blasphemy and walking
AROUND their land instead of walking through it for fear of being affected.

And this is the person Jesus used to show anyone can serve as your neighbor in Christ.
Even those you least expect or respect. God may use that person to serve a good purpose.

It depends on the spirit and content, not on judging by label or appearance.
We all may be biased or wrong in some areas, but right on target elsewhere.
Why not bring out the best in each other, while correcting the areas we each fall short?

 

[JakeStarkey]

An associate and a person I know by reputation are facing excommunication because the LDS Church limits their personal authenticity. The body of Christ, the believers, are and own the church, not self-proclaimed leaders.

"One by one they throw us from the tower. And we spread our wings and fly." Carol Lynn Pearson

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/u...atened-with-excommunication.html?src=twr&_r=1

I had trouble following when you are using
"church" to mean the local policies/body
and when you are using
"church" to mean the collective universal whole (ie all humanity as one church)

I would AGREE with you that the people as a whole
define the whole church on that universal scale.

Until we all agree, then the LOCAL church groups and policies depend on THEIR MEMBERS
to define an agreed policy/interpretation for the LOCAL level of "church."

That is where you lost me, because there were conflicting groups/interpretations within the same membership or body.

So when you have a rift between the traditionally recognized leaders
and the members who are represented by a challenging new interpretation,
then only the policy that is IN COMMON represents the church body. The part in conflict is not decided yet.

The conflict would need to be resolved before it is clear what the church policy is on it.
In the meantime, the parts that ARE universally accepted, those are clearly church policy.
I would not give one group more or less authority over another: if they cannot resolve their
differences, let them govern separately and not compete if they both represent people of different views.

Thank you for your comments, Emily.

I am not LDS but have been around them all of my life, know so many of them, of the various denominations and sects.

I feel for my friends who have been trying to build bridges for those who are confused and hurting yet wish to remain members if possible.

Reminds me of a story about a Baptist guy who was shipwrecked. When rescused he gave a tour of his area. He pointed out his hut, and his church hut, and when questioned about failing to mention the third hut, he replied, "That's where I used to go to church."

 

[sealybobo]

hey guys let me let you in on a little secret avatar is practicing what in the Mormon church is called priest speak it it's mostly used BY the FLDS (FUNDAMENTALIST MORMONS)
it's was designed to keep you off balance and make it easier for avatar to dodge questions
remember his sources are all mormon sources making them bias....and false...

I love the different twists between religions. Catholics say they are the original and all the others are posers. Born agains say Catholics are baptized as children and so that doesn't count. They say you have to decide and do it on your own as an adult. So every church has its own twist on what it is special/better or different.

Joseph Smith in 1800 couldn't decide which church to join so he prayed and god told him to start his own church because the others were corrupt/bad/not authentic anymore. I agree all the others are bullshit but so is the Mormon faith.

My Mormon friend explained to me that when Jesus died, he didn't pass the baton on to one of his disciples and that person didn't pass on the baton to the next person and so on all the way down to where the current Pope or any leader of any normal Christian church. In other words, the link broke. So the normal christian churches don't really have jesus' authority anymore. They admit that the jesus story 2000 years ago happened but somewhere down the road the link between jesus and them was broken.

But that isn't the case with the Mormons. Jesus talked to Joseph Smith in 1800 and he passed his authority down from one church leader to the next until the current leader of the Mormon church today. That link was never broken, like regular christians. Brilliant!

 

[Luddly Neddite]

So in addition to being a pedophile and a con artist, Joseph Smith was also a plagarist?

You cant plagarize what you claim was written by others.

And for someone with such a self proclaimed knowledge of Mormons, you seem to be asking alot of ignorant questions.

Actually, it was a rhertorical question. Joseph Smith's Plagarism is an established fact.

Mormonism Disproved - Plagiarism

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

hey guys let me let you in on a little secret avatar is practicing what in the Mormon church is called priest speak it it's mostly used BY the FLDS (FUNDAMENTALIST MORMONS)
it's was designed to keep you off balance and make it easier for avatar to dodge questions
remember his sources are all mormon sources making them bias....and false...

Yes, I remember reading about that. Also, a documentary I saw discussed it.

A good friend lived in Utah for most of his life. According to him, morms (his name for them) are dishonest and very willing to say or do pretty much whatever they have to in order to get what they want.

I also knew a few morm families in Tucson. They were a "ward" in and of themselves. They were the most dishonest group I've ever come across.

Even if Mittens had been qualified, that willingness to lie, in itself, is more than enough reason to keep morms out of higher office.

And, yes, I do know that Harry Reid is morm.

 

[Disir]

STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH

Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.
Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally look at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were at a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always declined having anything to do with this business.
Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it but got a p- [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from the surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill.
Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to look, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted.
McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark colored stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes.
Jonathon Thompson: says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck something sounding like a board or plant. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hold beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner’s professed skill; that the board he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the amn the witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money: And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty.
Mormon Quotes on Joseph Smith's trial of 1826

 

[Avatar4321]

You cant plagarize what you claim was written by others.

And for someone with such a self proclaimed knowledge of Mormons, you seem to be asking alot of ignorant questions.

Actually, it was a rhertorical question. Joseph Smith's Plagarism is an established fact.

Mormonism Disproved - Plagiarism

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

You've clearly been reading bad sources because lying is not approved of for any reason.

Why don't you take your own advice and keep your nuttiness to yourself? Then maybe others would follow suit.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Actually, it was a rhertorical question. Joseph Smith's Plagarism is an established fact.

Mormonism Disproved - Plagiarism

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

You've clearly been reading bad sources because lying is not approved of for any reason.

Why don't you take your own advice and keep your nuttiness to yourself? Then maybe others would follow suit.

I've read a number of sources, known people, watched documentaries and what I think is,

You may well be lying because its acceptable to lie to further the morm agenda.

 

[Disir]

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

You've clearly been reading bad sources because lying is not approved of for any reason.

Why don't you take your own advice and keep your nuttiness to yourself? Then maybe others would follow suit.

I've read a number of sources, known people, watched documentaries and what I think is,

You may well be lying because its acceptable to lie to further the morm agenda.

Luddly, you're talking to a brick wall. LDS is a cult. Keep on knockin' but nobodies home.

 

[Avatar4321]

Actually, it was a rhertorical question. Joseph Smith's Plagarism is an established fact.

Mormonism Disproved - Plagiarism

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

You've clearly been reading bad sources because lying is not approved of for any reason.

Why don't you take your own advice and keep your nuttiness to yourself? Then maybe others would follow suit.

But, that whole "lying for the lord" is an accepted way of furthering their agenda.

When Mittens was "running", I did a lot of reading ...

What I think is, just like christians, if they keep their nuttiness to themselves, it is probably pretty harmless.

You've clearly been reading bad sources because lying is not approved of for any reason.

Why don't you take your own advice and keep your nuttiness to yourself? Then maybe others would follow suit.

I've read a number of sources, known people, watched documentaries and what I think is,

You may well be lying because its acceptable to lie to further the morm agenda.

Doesn't matter how much you repeat it or what alleged "sources" you supposedly have, it's still blatantly false.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avatar, the truth is somewhere in between, as always.

I have known many Mormons and would rather live next to than next to evangelicals who will steal you blind if given a chance.

Do you know how to keep a Mormon or a Baptists from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip? Bring two Mormons or two Baptists.

 

[Avatar4321]

Sorry jake. There is no in between here. Lying simply isn't allowable for any reason. It's taught against from the highest offices to the lowliest deacon. In fact, being dishonest with your fellow man can keep you out of the Temple.

I'm not saying every saint is perfectly honest. People are flawed. And there are tares among the wheat. But no one is taught to "lie for the Lord". That is a blatant lie.

 

[FA_Q2]

Sorry jake. There is no in between here. Lying simply isn't allowable for any reason. It's taught against from the highest offices to the lowliest deacon. In fact, being dishonest with your fellow man can keep you out of the Temple.

I'm not saying every saint is perfectly honest. People are flawed. And there are tares among the wheat. But no one is taught to "lie for the Lord". That is a blatant lie.

There is always the village idiot demanding that because one or more do something wrong the entire institution somehow condones it.

Under that guise, Catholics are mass murderers and molesters. Atheists as well. Muslims endorse terrorism. Hell, almost every major institution must endorse mass murder...

No one is perfect, that does not make the institution inherently wrong.

 

[Avatar4321]

Sorry jake. There is no in between here. Lying simply isn't allowable for any reason. It's taught against from the highest offices to the lowliest deacon. In fact, being dishonest with your fellow man can keep you out of the Temple.

I'm not saying every saint is perfectly honest. People are flawed. And there are tares among the wheat. But no one is taught to "lie for the Lord". That is a blatant lie.

There is always the village idiot demanding that because one or more do something wrong the entire institution somehow condones it.

Under that guise, Catholics are mass murderers and molesters. Atheists as well. Muslims endorse terrorism. Hell, almost every major institution must endorse mass murder...

No one is perfect, that does not make the institution inherently wrong.

I completely agree.

 

[JakeStarkey]

'lying' was mentioned by Luddly, Avatar, not me.

However, 'lying for the Lord,' as documented by Carmon Hardy is indeed a fact.

http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/lying_for_the_lord.pdf in Solemn Covenant.

If you deny what is clearly documented in the essay, then you are 'lying for the Lord', and that is not acceptable.

 

[JakeStarkey]

My wife made an interesting comparison of Kate Kelly and Rosa Parks, each fighting for an authentic identity and right to exist.

It's a good one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

'lying' was mentioned by Luddly, Avatar, not me.

However, 'lying for the Lord,' as documented by Carmon Hardy is indeed a fact.

http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/lying_for_the_lord.pdf in Solemn Covenant.

If you deny what is clearly documented in the essay, then you are 'lying for the Lord', and that is not acceptable.

^ This, avatar.

You are unable to it back up.