Zone1 The timing of the New Testament... decades after...

[EMH]

This debate has gone on for two thousand years...

A Brief Review of Jesus the Jew, by Thomas Dalton

One is forced to ask: Does MacDonald approve this? Did he give the go-ahead to publish such a historically laughable article?

www.vtforeignpolicy.com

"“If Jesus was anything close to the miracle-worker that the Bible describes, there would be a mountain of testifying evidence: documents, carvings, engravings, letters, etc. And these would exist from his followers, his skeptics, his critics, and the Romans who ruled the region. There would be a vast and well-documented account of a man who walked on water, raised the dead, healed with a touch, calmed storms, and fed thousands with ‘five loaves of bread and two fish.’ These testimonies would all date to the time of his alleged ministry, roughly, 27 to 30 AD. And yet, from that time period, we have… nothing. In fact, nothing even close. In fact, nothing for literally decades.”

"“The first Christian writings to talk about Jesus are the epistles of St Paul, and scholars agree that the earliest of these letters were written within 25 years of Jesus’s death at the very latest, while the detailed biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament gospels date from around 40 years after he died."


Ok, so this guy is/was "Son of God," and he gets convicted and crucified, and his disciples are hunted down and murdered in grisly fashion....

and then DECADES PASS... and then the New Testament starts to emerge....

DECADES...

And St. Paul's big claim is a "vision" he saw but nobody else did.


If this guy was really Son of God, why did it take DECADES after his death to start writing the New Testament??????

??????????????????????????????????

 

[EMH]

OK, I'll speculate.

Jews decades later were fascinated at the success this guy had bilking people of everything. People WANTED to believe. And if people want to believe something, there is room to manipulate and control what they think.

The religion for the unChosen - a means to manipulate and control what others think. Put it out there and see what happens...

"The terrorists" did 911. Tell them that in church, and they'll believe... and they did and still do despite clear proof that is not what happened...

 

[SweetSue92]

This debate has gone on for two thousand years...

A Brief Review of Jesus the Jew, by Thomas Dalton

One is forced to ask: Does MacDonald approve this? Did he give the go-ahead to publish such a historically laughable article?

www.vtforeignpolicy.com

"“If Jesus was anything close to the miracle-worker that the Bible describes, there would be a mountain of testifying evidence: documents, carvings, engravings, letters, etc. And these would exist from his followers, his skeptics, his critics, and the Romans who ruled the region. There would be a vast and well-documented account of a man who walked on water, raised the dead, healed with a touch, calmed storms, and fed thousands with ‘five loaves of bread and two fish.’ These testimonies would all date to the time of his alleged ministry, roughly, 27 to 30 AD. And yet, from that time period, we have… nothing. In fact, nothing even close. In fact, nothing for literally decades.”

"“The first Christian writings to talk about Jesus are the epistles of St Paul, and scholars agree that the earliest of these letters were written within 25 years of Jesus’s death at the very latest, while the detailed biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament gospels date from around 40 years after he died."


Ok, so this guy is/was "Son of God," and he gets convicted and crucified, and his disciples are hunted down and murdered in grisly fashion....

and then DECADES PASS... and then the New Testament starts to emerge....

DECADES...

And St. Paul's big claim is a "vision" he saw but nobody else did.


If this guy was really Son of God, why did it take DECADES after his death to start writing the New Testament??????

??????????????????????????????????

Because it was the ancient world. Most people were illiterate. "Breaking news" was passed orally--it wouldn't have even occurred to them to write it down and disseminate it immediately; again, most people did not even have that capacity.

Here is some information, for example, about Julius Caesar. He died in 44 BC. Notice almost none of the historic sources--scroll down--were written in his lifetime, but decades after, some hundreds of years after.

Julius Caesar

A detailed biography of Julius Caesar that includes images, quotations and the main facts of his life. Key Stage 3. GCSE World History. A-level. Last updated: 15th March 2022

spartacus-educational.com

 

[SweetSue92]

OK, I'll speculate.

Jews decades later were fascinated at the success this guy had bilking people of everything. People WANTED to believe. And if people want to believe something, there is room to manipulate and control what they think.

The religion for the unChosen - a means to manipulate and control what others think. Put it out there and see what happens...

"The terrorists" did 911. Tell them that in church, and they'll believe... and they did and still do despite clear proof that is not what happened...

The early Christians had absolutely no earthly reason to WANT to believe, and especially not the first apostles and believers. Almost to a man they died for their testimony, in some cases, brutal and awful deaths.

You might find an odd duck or two who will die for a complete lie. You wouldn't find them in large numbers. It defies reason.

 

[EMH]

Because it was the ancient world. Most people were illiterate. "Breaking news" was passed orally--it wouldn't have even occurred to them to write it down and disseminate it immediately; again, most people did not even have that capacity.

Here is some information, for example, about Julius Caesar. He died in 44 BC. Notice almost none of the historic sources--scroll down--were written in his lifetime, but decades after, some hundreds of years after.

Julius Caesar

A detailed biography of Julius Caesar that includes images, quotations and the main facts of his life. Key Stage 3. GCSE World History. A-level. Last updated: 15th March 2022

spartacus-educational.com

All of the Roman emperors are well documented.

Jesus is not. Just the New Testament.

Caesar himself stood in the center front of battle after battle in an extravagant red outfit and was never injured. Ponder that. No errant arrow or spear ever hit him. Unreal...

 

[SweetSue92]

All of the Roman emperors are well documented.

Jesus is not. Just the New Testament.

Caesar himself stood in the center front of battle after battle in an extravagant red outfit and was never injured. Ponder that. No errant arrow or spear ever hit him. Unreal...

I mean....yes. Caesar was the Emperor of the most powerful nation/state in the entire world, and was surrounded by people who could read and write and had the means to do so. I mean, yes, of course his history was recorded.

Jesus Christ was a poor Jew from an obscure backwater town. He hung out with common people. Still, he attracted a good amount of attention and there are contemporary accounts of His life even outside the Bible. Not like what you would get for the Roman Emperor, and this only makes sense.

 

[EMH]

The early Christians had absolutely no earthly reason to WANT to believe, and especially not the first apostles and believers. Almost to a man they died for their testimony, in some cases, brutal and awful deaths.

You might find an odd duck or two who will die for a complete lie. You wouldn't find them in large numbers. It defies reason.

There are two versions of Jesus - the New Testament and what Jews have to say about him. They are very different versions.

"died for their testimony" is a laughable claim given Jesus had an open trial and NOBODY came in and testified

"I saw the miracles"
"This guy healed me"

ZERO


The New Testament also has no good explanation as to why so many hated Jesus. And why the disciples were all hunted down. The Jewish version explains that perfectly. The people cheering Barrabas and the crucifixion were the original Christians bilked of everything, the ones Jesus tried to starve according to Judas, who ratted him out after he ran out of food for 5000 people and would not let them leave...

 

[EMH]

there are contemporary accounts of His life even outside the Bible

Those are not supportive of your view at all. Those are the Jews who believe he was a fraud and worse...

 

[SweetSue92]

There are two versions of Jesus - the New Testament and what Jews have to say about him. They are very different versions.

"died for their testimony" is a laughable claim given Jesus had an open trial and NOBODY came in and testified

"I saw the miracles"
"This guy healed me"

ZERO


The New Testament also has no good explanation as to why so many hated Jesus. And why the disciples were all hunted down. The Jewish version explains that perfectly. The people cheering Barrabas and the crucifixion were the original Christians bilked of everything, the ones Jesus tried to starve according to Judas, who ratted him out after he ran out of food for 5000 people and would not let them leave...

That's right, you're right about no one defending Him. Even one of his closest apostles Peter denied Him, after saying just hours earlier that he never would.

The apostles were all acting completely human and fearful. And spineless.

But then they saw the risen Jesus. And it all changed.

 

[SweetSue92]

Those are not supportive of your view at all. Those are the Jews who believe he was a fraud and worse...

There are people who still believe He was a fraud. So? That doesn't make it so. And it doesn't explain why the apostles, so fearful after His death, then went to their OWN deaths for their testimonies.

 

[EMH]

Even one of his closest apostles Peter denied Him, after saying just hours earlier that he never would

Sounds a lot like President Trump's Jewish Cabinet appointees...

they saw the risen Jesus

All three of them.


I have no problem when Christianity is used to install quality values in young people. A lot of northern Christians see it that way. They don't want to debate whether Jesus was real or not, they want their kids to grow up to be good people. And the re-conquest of the Promised Land is not something they see as important, why they are no longer Republicans, because the Southern Christians do see that as important, and W is the worst traitor in US history playing off that passion....

 

[luiza]

Broadly agree OP but there was a great deal that was suppressed ,written much earlier . We have reference to a considerable amount of it . The Romans abetted by Peter and Paul wrote Christianity in the way they wanted it around 100 AD and to cement Roman support. Later Constantine constructed a New Testament to suit his own agendas and cut out everything which disagreed or posed problems. . Dozens of testaments exist mainly as a result of the Dead Sea Scroll findings from 1947 onwards .The earliest NT gospel is that of Mark around 64 AD but that was not written by the apostle Mark . Keeping it simple ,the censors wanted women removed from any part of the key narratives and particularly Jesus’ wife , the Magdalene . Plus they wanted Jesus to be seen as a Jewish kingly figure and not somebody who competed with the State -/ Rome -/ or exceeded the authority of Constantine the Emperor as the main figure .

 

[Hellokitty]

This debate has gone on for two thousand years...

A Brief Review of Jesus the Jew, by Thomas Dalton

One is forced to ask: Does MacDonald approve this? Did he give the go-ahead to publish such a historically laughable article?

www.vtforeignpolicy.com

"“If Jesus was anything close to the miracle-worker that the Bible describes, there would be a mountain of testifying evidence: documents, carvings, engravings, letters, etc. And these would exist from his followers, his skeptics, his critics, and the Romans who ruled the region. There would be a vast and well-documented account of a man who walked on water, raised the dead, healed with a touch, calmed storms, and fed thousands with ‘five loaves of bread and two fish.’ These testimonies would all date to the time of his alleged ministry, roughly, 27 to 30 AD. And yet, from that time period, we have… nothing. In fact, nothing even close. In fact, nothing for literally decades.”

"“The first Christian writings to talk about Jesus are the epistles of St Paul, and scholars agree that the earliest of these letters were written within 25 years of Jesus’s death at the very latest, while the detailed biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament gospels date from around 40 years after he died."


Ok, so this guy is/was "Son of God," and he gets convicted and crucified, and his disciples are hunted down and murdered in grisly fashion....

and then DECADES PASS... and then the New Testament starts to emerge....

DECADES...

And St. Paul's big claim is a "vision" he saw but nobody else did.


If this guy was really Son of God, why did it take DECADES after his death to start writing the New Testament??????

??????????????????????????????????

Are you debating the existence of Jesus as a historical figure?

 

[SweetSue92]

Broadly agree OP but there was a great deal that was suppressed ,written much earlier . We have reference to a considerable amount of it . The Romans abetted by Peter and Paul wrote Christianity in the way they wanted it around 100 AD and to cement Roman support. Later Constantine constructed a New Testament to suit his own agendas and cut out everything which disagreed or posed problems. . Dozens of testaments exist mainly as a result of the Dead Sea Scroll findings from 1947 onwards .The earliest NT gospel is that of Mark around 64 AD but that was not written by the apostle Mark . Keeping it simple ,the censors wanted women removed from any part of the key narratives and particularly Jesus’ wife , the Magdalene . Plus they wanted Jesus to be seen as a Jewish kingly figure and not somebody who competed with the State -/ Rome -/ or exceeded the authority of Constantine the Emperor as the main figure .

Um....there were zero New Testament documents found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[SweetSue92]

Sounds a lot like President Trump's Jewish Cabinet appointees...





All three of them.


I have no problem when Christianity is used to install quality values in young people. A lot of northern Christians see it that way. They don't want to debate whether Jesus was real or not, they want their kids to grow up to be good people. And the re-conquest of the Promised Land is not something they see as important, why they are no longer Republicans, because the Southern Christians do see that as important, and W is the worst traitor in US history playing off that passion....

There is no point to Christianity without the risen Christ. Paul said himself that if Christ has not been raised our faith is in vain and we are dead in our sins. 1 Cor 15:19

 

[luiza]

There is no point to Christianity without the risen Christ. Paul said himself that if Christ has not been raised our faith is in vain and we are dead in our sins. 1 Cor 15:19

Exactly .
That is precisely why the Church was so desperate to get this piece of invention accepted .

BTW , Joseph of Arithimea bought Jesus the burial chamber because he never died . The early Christian Fathers then later had to turn somersaults to get you to believe that despite this he flipped up to heaven for a few days and for unspecified business .
To keep up with the Son Of God part of the tale . Not just some married Essene monk who was actually only an ordinary, decent bloke .

 

[SweetSue92]

Exactly .
That is precisely why the Church was so desperate to get this piece of invention accepted .

BTW , Joseph of Arithimea bought Jesus the burial chamber because he never died . The early Christian Fathers then later had to turn somersaults to get you to believe that despite this he flipped up to heaven for a few days and for unspecified business .
To keep up with the Son Of God part of the tale . Not just some married Essene monk who was just an ordinary, decent bloke .

Oh. So He was crucified and his side pierced (after three hours on the cross and severe beatings before) but...He just hopped down from that cross and faked His death. Makes sense, yeah.

 

[JustAGuy1]

There are two versions of Jesus - the New Testament and what Jews have to say about him. They are very different versions.

"died for their testimony" is a laughable claim given Jesus had an open trial and NOBODY came in and testified

"I saw the miracles"
"This guy healed me"

ZERO


The New Testament also has no good explanation as to why so many hated Jesus. And why the disciples were all hunted down. The Jewish version explains that perfectly. The people cheering Barrabas and the crucifixion were the original Christians bilked of everything, the ones Jesus tried to starve according to Judas, who ratted him out after he ran out of food for 5000 people and would not let them leave...

Where do you this kind of trash(besides your own hatred) from?

 

[BreezeWood]

-it wouldn't have even occurred to them to write it down and disseminate it immediately;

- not your makebelieve christian religion that no one would have given a passing day to ...

the events of the 1st century were a reaffirmation of the religion of antiquity expressed then as - liberation theology, self determination - those people did give their lives for and the suppression of what they believed in by those in authority that feared them ...

- the crucifiers who wrote the c-bible used the martyrdom of others to represent their views of servitude, the christian religion than the true reason for the crimes they committed.

 

[BreezeWood]

Just the New Testament.

they spent nearly the entirety of the 4th century writing the c-bible ... and did not archive a single document they used to write the book nor minutes or proceedings to compile their manuscript, deliberations and "votes" taken for final renderings.

a book ... madeup entirely from the atmosphere.