The single biggest problem with Obamacare.

[Toronado3800]

Toranado: Capitalism has left the just mildly above average American so well off they can afford a new kidney tomorrow if they need one?

Brutus: who can say what the real price would be under capitalism. Remember, nothing was affordable to Russians and Chinese before capitalism. All things are much cheaper under capitalism.

Toronado: Brutus there is a problem with the math for health insurance companies. The cost of newer treatments is going up faster than incomes are going up. At some point there will either be folks deciding "well that new heart will cost my wife our home, I don't need one".

Brutus: as I said, who can say what the real cost of anything is when there is no competition.

Toronado: By forcing everyone to buy insurance every day of their lives the theory is we put off that date a little bit longer. This gives time for a new specialty called "how to make this affordable" time to catch up.

Brutus: no idea what you are talking about?? Only capitalism makes things affordable. Always remember the USSR and Red China. China switched to capitalism and instantly saved 10's of millions from slow starvation.

Toronado: BTW, when I think of capitalism and small government I think of Mexico. Not a very nice place to be.

Brutus: capitalism requires law and order. It can't function with out it. We have had it here thanks to religion.

Toranado: We flourished in the post New Deal era for a number of reasons. One is we ended up with a middle class.

Brutus: a middle upper and lower class is assumed. I have no idea what your point is.

Keep in mind basically I am a capitalist.

Remember 9/12/2001? Socialist controls made fuel affordable for your car. Amend your statement to "Capitalism with socialist controls and the fear of a popular revolution makes things affordable."

Capitalism requires law and order? Laws sound like the first step to the left regulating what folks can and can't do.

The problem with the math....how to explain.... is we all want the latest and greatest treatment. This gallbladder removal I had was not available to my great grandfather when he was 30 so he did not have to worry about spending money on it. He just had pain and died sooner. My children may be able to rid themselves of arthritis for $$$,$$$. An expense I do not have. They also may have a $$$,$$$,$$$ cure for Alzheimer's. Something I may just suffer from and die. These will all be increased costs to their health insurance company.

Follow me so far?

 

[Brutus]

Toronado: Keep in mind basically I am a capitalist.
Remember 9/12/2001? Socialist controls made fuel affordable for your car. Amend your statement to "Capitalism with socialist controls and the fear of a popular revolution makes things affordable."

Brutus: socialism is government ownership in the belief that bureaucrats can manage the commanding heights better over the long term. It is not a governmental response to war.

Brutus: Capitalism requires law and order.

Toronado: Laws sound like the first step to the left regulating what folks can and can't do.


Brutus: all sides of the political spectrum are for laws so I have no idea what your point is. Do you?

Toronado: The problem with the math....how to explain.... is we all want the latest and greatest treatment. This gallbladder removal I had was not available to my great grandfather when he was 30 so he did not have to worry about spending money on it. He just had pain and died sooner. My children may be able to rid themselves of arthritis for $$$,$$$. An expense I do not have. They also may have a $$$,$$$,$$$ cure for Alzheimer's. Something I may just suffer from and die. These will all be increased costs to their health insurance company.

Brutus: sorry but that seems absurd! Today everyone can afford jet travel whereas it was only for the rich when first invented. Same with car, etc etc.
The Soviets had liberal control and pricing and so no one could afford anything.
Capitalism creates affordable, widely distributed wealth that no one could have imagined. You are looking at health care with Soviet eyes, that is to say, blindly!! sorry.


Toronado: Follow me so far?

Brutus: sure, liberal misunderstandings are easy to follow

 

[Brutus]

Polk: And three judges have ruled that is constitutional, so where are we going with this?

Brutus: but the 3 were liberals; so don't count. Lets remember that liberal spied for Stalin. If the Feds can make you buy insurance under the commerce clause they can make you do almost anything and then we no longer have a limited government of enumerated powers.

Its changes the entire concept of America from freedom and liberty from government to communism just as the liberals would like. Can we at least be honest about it?

 

[Polk]

Ah yes, the rulings don't count because you don't like the outcome.

 

[Toronado3800]

Brutus, you can't just go claiming regulation and laws limiting my capitalist rights are part of capitalism but regulating a capitalist economy is socialism.

Honest, folks NEED a fear of starving and NEED the possibility of rewards to work the hardest. It is just human nature. So is crime and sin. So we need a good number of socialist like or socialistic laws.

 

[Brutus]

Toronado: Brutus, you can't just go claiming regulation and laws limiting my capitalist rights are part of capitalism but regulating a capitalist economy is socialism.

Brutus: you seem confused. Capitalism is private ownership. socialism is public ownershhip!

Toranado: Honest, folks NEED a fear of starving and NEED the possibility of rewards to work the hardest.

Brutus: I agree, so???

Toronado: It is just human nature. So is crime and sin. So we need a good number of socialist like or socialistic laws.

Brutus: again you seem confused about what socialism is so a discussion is difficult.

 

[johnrocks]

We have not had free enterprise;especially regarding health-care /health insurance; in decades.

Want to reduce costs; reduce government intervention;not only at the Federal level but at the State level too, get third parties out of paying everything from a paper cut to brain surgery; have insurance for the major stuff;like the brain surgery;pay for the paper cut yourself, separate employment from insurance; have insurance that is individual and portable..

 

[Brutus]

We have not had free enterprise;especially regarding health-care /health insurance; in decades.

Want to reduce costs; reduce government intervention;not only at the Federal level but at the State level too, get third parties out of paying everything from a paper cut to brain surgery; have insurance for the major stuff;like the brain surgery;pay for the paper cut yourself, separate employment from insurance; have insurance that is individual and portable..

Brutus: all good points Johnrocks. I would add that we need to make interstate insurance competition legal and mandate published prices so you'd have real competition.

 

[Toronado3800]

Toronado: Brutus, you can't just go claiming regulation and laws limiting my capitalist rights are part of capitalism but regulating a capitalist economy is socialism.

Brutus: you seem confused. Capitalism is private ownership. socialism is public ownershhip!

Toranado: Honest, folks NEED a fear of starving and NEED the possibility of rewards to work the hardest.

Brutus: I agree, so???

Toronado: It is just human nature. So is crime and sin. So we need a good number of socialist like or socialistic laws.

Brutus: again you seem confused about what socialism is so a discussion is difficult.

Regulation and control are part of the planned economy of socialism. If I wanna regulate Wall Street or the Airlines I am called a socialist.

I agree with your decision to limit state rights for regulating Insurance Licensing. The notion is outdated and at the very least robs economics of scale.

 

[Spoonman]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

The single biggest problem with Obamacare is that it exists

 

[Brutus]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

The single biggest problem with Obamacare is that it exists

Brutus: I agree but it is helpful to say what aspect of its existence is most offensive. For me, it is that it assumes free market solutions won't work without being able to explain why. My own view is that they lack the IQ to do so.

 

[Greenbeard]

For me, it is that it assumes free market solutions won't work without being able to explain why. My own view is that they lack the IQ to do so.

As was already pointed out to you, an exchange is a market--indeed, the concept is the very same as the one that anchored Paul Ryan's health reform bill and it's the concept behind ruby red Utah's ongoing reorganization of its small group market.

 

[Brutus]

For me, it is that it assumes free market solutions won't work without being able to explain why. My own view is that they lack the IQ to do so.

As was already pointed out to you, an exchange is a market--indeed, the concept is the very same as the one that anchored Paul Ryan's health reform bill and it's the concept behind ruby red Utah's ongoing reorganization of its small group market.

Brutus: A Democratic exchange in not a free market because the government is very heavily involved. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[Greenbeard]

Use your words: what are you talking about? Utah's exchange is heralded a conservative triumph but it certainly isn't distinguished by a lack of government involvement. The Utah state government contracts out to handle premium aggregation, they administer the risk adjustment mechanism, and they run the website that collects and shares plan information. Utah's market isn't Democratic but it certainly sounds like it's far too liberal for your tastes.

"Democrats = bad" and "government = bad" isn't quite the sophisticated argument you seem to think it is.

 

[Brutus]

Greenbeard: "Democrats = bad" and "government = bad" isn't quite the sophisticated argument you seem to think it is.

Brutus: Jefferson thought it was the most sophisticated idea in human history. Why don't you even after having seen the 20th century??

 

[Brutus]

For me, it is that it assumes free market solutions won't work without being able to explain why. My own view is that they lack the IQ to do so.

As was already pointed out to you, an exchange is a market--indeed, the concept is the very same as the one that anchored Paul Ryan's health reform bill and it's the concept behind ruby red Utah's ongoing reorganization of its small group market.

an insurance exchange is not a free capitalist market because it is mandated and managed by the government! Is that really over your head?

 

[auditor0007]

We have not had free enterprise;especially regarding health-care /health insurance; in decades.

Want to reduce costs; reduce government intervention;not only at the Federal level but at the State level too, get third parties out of paying everything from a paper cut to brain surgery; have insurance for the major stuff;like the brain surgery;pay for the paper cut yourself, separate employment from insurance; have insurance that is individual and portable..

Getting insurance out of the employers hands would be the best thing we could possibly do. The problem is that without mandating catastrophic coverage, or as it used to be called, major medical, too many would go without insurance, and that would just cause bigger problems.

 

[auditor0007]

Greenbeard: "Democrats = bad" and "government = bad" isn't quite the sophisticated argument you seem to think it is.

Brutus: Jefferson thought it was the most sophisticated idea in human history. Why don't you even after having seen the 20th century??

I just want to know which country in this world of ours offers a great standard of living with such limited government.

 

[editec]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

That's your deep understanding of the problem, is it? That you sense that its socialist?

My problem with the Obama HC plan is that it does nothing to decrease the overall costs of HC.

Additionally it serves as a handmaiden to the private HC insurers by forcing people to buy HC insurance.

Its smacks of FASCISM far as I can tell.


And in case you still haven't figured this out, yet, FASCISM is a form of socialism that designed to benefit the investment class.

It was the invention of a cat named MUSSOLINI, who described Fascism as CORPORATISM.

So you and I ARE on the same page, but for different reasons.

 

[Brutus]

Private insurance companies would be loved if Democrats would let them compete