The Right to Believe What One Wants

[GreatestIam]

I think the point to be made is very clear, now. You consider recognition and respect for our Creator, and basic standards of decency and morality, to be “mythologies” and “made-up bullshit”, and do not want them to be taught to children.

Care to look at what you call basic standards of decency and morality, as applied by Christianity?

If your religion had those, they should have been able to grow by good argument, but instead, Christianity grew by the sword and Inquisitions.

Do you se Inquisitions as a good basic standards of decency and morality?

Here is a quick link to bring you up to speed.



If you wish to discuss the morality of your past Inquisitions, perhaps we can chat about one of the most despicable ones.



Regards
DL

 

[Bonzi]

So no laws should have and commonality with religious law. That would be damn near impossible.

Besides, what happened to freedom of speech and expression?

In any event, this country is becoming more and more liberal so don't know why there is such anger and vitriol

I think that the fact that Trump was elected belies what you said of the U.S. going more liberal.

Trump is not only right wing, he is way off the scale.

Regards
DL

Laws and societal trends indicate otherwise

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You see, it's not that atheists want to force theists to believe, or disbelieve anything. We just want them to quit using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit'.

Are you suggesting thst I don't have a eight to instruct my own children in my system of beliefs, but thst the Public Education system gets to Indoctrinate them with yoirs?

I submit that what you call "indoctrination" by the Public Education System is teaching facts, science, and critical thinking. How does your indoctrinating your children to accept the existence of something for which there is no objective evidence teach any of these things?

The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking.


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"The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking"

Of course it is, as evidenced by the many brilliant, well-learned students graduating from public schools. The biggest problem facing public education is stupid, ignorant people who do not value education. And these people have kids in these schools.

And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. Then the real bright bulbs go from there to Congress, where they worry about Guam tipping over and celebrate putting the American flag on Mars.


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"And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. "

That's not all, or even most students. And your implication to the contrary shows either dishonesty or a poor grasp of reason on your part. Pick your poison.

 

[Czernobog]

So no laws should have and commonality with religious law.

Not at all what I'm saying. Rather I am saying that a law's primary purpose, however disguised, should not be to enforce Christian morality. In fact, I would go further, and state that the purpose of law should not be to enforce morality, period.

The purpose of the law is to protect me from you. That is the basis of law. Self preservation. Whenever we stray from that standard, into trying to dictate morality by statute, we, invariably manage to do nothing more than write laws that violate the individual rights of others, and criminalise personal choice.

 

[Bonzi]

So no laws should have and commonality with religious law.

Not at all what I'm saying. Rather I am saying that a law's primary purpose, however disguised, should not be to enforce Christian morality. In fact, I would go further, and state that the purpose of law should not be to enforce morality, period.

The purpose of the law is to protect me from you. That is the basis of law. Self preservation. Whenever we stray from that standard, into trying to dictate morality by statute, we, invariably manage to do nothing more than write laws that violate the individual rights of others, and criminalise personal choice.

But we do. Thou shalt not murder. That is a dictate or morality, albeit one most would agree with

 

[hadit]

Are you suggesting thst I don't have a eight to instruct my own children in my system of beliefs, but thst the Public Education system gets to Indoctrinate them with yoirs?

I submit that what you call "indoctrination" by the Public Education System is teaching facts, science, and critical thinking. How does your indoctrinating your children to accept the existence of something for which there is no objective evidence teach any of these things?

The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking"

Of course it is, as evidenced by the many brilliant, well-learned students graduating from public schools. The biggest problem facing public education is stupid, ignorant people who do not value education. And these people have kids in these schools.

And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. Then the real bright bulbs go from there to Congress, where they worry about Guam tipping over and celebrate putting the American flag on Mars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. "

That's not all, or even most students. And your implication to the contrary shows either dishonesty or a poor grasp of reason on your part. Pick your poison.

Why do you think so many colleges offer (and require) remedial subjects? It's not because all those students were prepared for college in government schools.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I submit that what you call "indoctrination" by the Public Education System is teaching facts, science, and critical thinking. How does your indoctrinating your children to accept the existence of something for which there is no objective evidence teach any of these things?

The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"The modern American government school system isn't doing a great job teaching facts, science and critical thinking"

Of course it is, as evidenced by the many brilliant, well-learned students graduating from public schools. The biggest problem facing public education is stupid, ignorant people who do not value education. And these people have kids in these schools.

And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. Then the real bright bulbs go from there to Congress, where they worry about Guam tipping over and celebrate putting the American flag on Mars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"And you can see these brilliant, well learned students in colleges today, running to safe spaces when they see Trump's name written on a sidewalk and rioting when a conservative speaker gets invites to speak. Yeah, real open and critical thinking going in there. "

That's not all, or even most students. And your implication to the contrary shows either dishonesty or a poor grasp of reason on your part. Pick your poison.

Why do you think so many colleges offer (and require) remedial subjects? It's not because all those students were prepared for college in government schools.

"Why do you think so many colleges offer (and require) remedial subjects?"

To make sure you know them, of course. That's why they also offer the option of testing out of these same, remedial subjects. Like, composition, or first-year foreign language, or first-year calculus, chemistry, and physics. And that lack of preparation is not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of culture. Their is a smattering of people who simply do not value education. If they did, so would their kids, on the balance. That's a fact.

 

[Czernobog]

So no laws should have and commonality with religious law.

Not at all what I'm saying. Rather I am saying that a law's primary purpose, however disguised, should not be to enforce Christian morality. In fact, I would go further, and state that the purpose of law should not be to enforce morality, period.

The purpose of the law is to protect me from you. That is the basis of law. Self preservation. Whenever we stray from that standard, into trying to dictate morality by statute, we, invariably manage to do nothing more than write laws that violate the individual rights of others, and criminalise personal choice.

But we do. Thou shalt not murder. That is a dictate or morality, albeit one most would agree with

Civil Laws against murder have nothing to do with your stupid religious moral code. Civil Laws against murder is completely about self-preservation. You see, I have no problem with murder. In fact, I can think of a whole lot of people that I would love to murder to death. The problem is, if I insist that it is okay for me to murder, then I have to, logically, and rationally, admit that it is okay for others to murder. Well, if I have a list of people I would like to murder, it stands to reason that others have a similar list of people they would like to murder, and it also stands to reason that I may well be on, at least, one of those lists. Guess what? I've grown rather attached to breathing. So, I don't want anyone to be able to murder me. So, out of self-preservation, I am more than willing to agree to the social contract (read Civil Law) that no one gets to murder anyone.

The fact that this Civil Law, based on self-preservation, just happens to resemble you stupid religious code, in no way makes that religious code the source. You are confusing correspondence with causation.

 

[HaShev]

Czernobog I don't know why your lion mauling post got removed, but it can fit your topic here about beliefs and in that false prophets case the results of false beliefs.
Similar to the false prophet in your story that thought himself protected and invincible, Jesus himself found out he too was not protected hence the call out to his voice in his head "why have you foresaken me"?
But worse then your lion cage story Jesus got his flock in there with him and convinced them they could take on Rome with horrible consequences.

The false prophet in your lion story was obviously no Daniel.
Daniel had a secret to ward off the Lions,
he p'd himself in fright, which would ward off the lions because you see, Daniel ate a lot of Asparagus.
Just thank the messenger who told Daniel to eat asparagas the night before....and drink that pitcher of water the day of his incarceration into the Lions den. *L*

 

[Bonzi]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

 

[Taz]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

Why are you convinced that gays will harm society? And do what exactly? Cause wars for no reason? Open fire on concertgoers? ... What exactly?

 

[Bonzi]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

Why are you convinced that gays will harm society? And do what exactly? Cause wars for no reason? Open fire on concertgoers? ... What exactly?

There is a natural reason only a man and a woman can produce a child

 

[Taz]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

Why are you convinced that gays will harm society? And do what exactly? Cause wars for no reason? Open fire on concertgoers? ... What exactly?

There is a natural reason only a man and a woman can produce a child

But what harm do gays do to society? Sort of like barren people, are they harming society or can they have something to add?

 

[Bonzi]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

Why are you convinced that gays will harm society? And do what exactly? Cause wars for no reason? Open fire on concertgoers? ... What exactly?

There is a natural reason only a man and a woman can produce a child

But what harm do gays do to society? Sort of like barren people, are they harming society or can they have something to add?

Historically, accepted sexual perversion is one of the many causes of powerful downfalls

 

[Czernobog]

Well there are people that think, ultimately, homosexuality will ultimately cause damage to our society as a whole... of course that is opinion. yet, many are convinced of it.....

Not a valid reason to attempt to enshrine a religious moral code in the law. That is not about protecting me from you.

Of course, homosexuality will be whether it's legal or not, just, legalization will likely increase instances of it, as it becomes more accepted, people will view it as an option (if you have an open mind, I think anyone can enjoy sex with either sex). I do think most of us are programmed to desire one sex more than the other, that being said

Quite so. Drugs, Prostitution, alcohol, abortion, homosexuality, the list goes on. Never, in the history of society has using civil government to criminalise behaviours based on personal religious morality stopped the targetted behaviour from happening. All it has done is violate the right of self-determination among its citizens, and made criminals of, otherwise, law abiding citizens.

 

[Czernobog]

You see, it's not that atheists want to force theists to believe, or disbelieve anything. We just want them to quit using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit'.

Are you suggesting thst I don't have a eight to instruct my own children in my system of beliefs, but thst the Public Education system gets to Indoctrinate them with yoirs?

I submit that what you call "indoctrination" by the Public Education System is teaching facts, science, and critical thinking. How does your indoctrinating your children to accept the existence of something for which there is no objective evidence teach any of these things?

You and I have no religious argument but we might on the politics of schools and what they teach.

I tend to see what this link says as truth.



What say you my friend?

Regards
DL

What say I? I say I have no idea who that guy s, or why anyone should pay any attention to him. Now, I'll admit that as soon as he started spewing your bullshit about public education being "indoctrination", I quit listening. I quit listening, because, frankly, just because that random guy happened to be on a YouTube video did not make his opinion any more valid than yours, when you insist that teaching facts, science, and critical thinking is "indoctrination".

 

[Bonzi]

People make sacrifices for the good of the country all the time. I only know what history had shown per the fall of civilizations. It's a slippery slope

 

[hunarcy]

I want to be clear about something. Many Christians, and Muslims think that atheists want to deny them the right to believe what they they wish, and to have personal opinion. This is absolutely not true.

You have every right to believe that the grass is green because, every morning the Little Green Grass Fairy comes out and paints each blade with her tiny, little Green Grass Brush. No one has any right to tell you that you are not entitled to that opinion.

However, I also have every right, understanding science, chlorophyll, light, and the mechanisms of the eye, and how all of that affects colour, to think that you are an absolute fucking moron.

You see, it's not that atheists want to force theists to believe, or disbelieve anything. We just want them to quit using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit.

Just sayin'.

If, the "theists" are using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit, how is it that Atheists exist at all?

 

[Weatherman2020]

I want to be clear about something. Many Christians, and Muslims think that atheists want to deny them the right to believe what they they wish, and to have personal opinion. This is absolutely not true.

You have every right to believe that the grass is green because, every morning the Little Green Grass Fairy comes out and paints each blade with her tiny, little Green Grass Brush. No one has any right to tell you that you are not entitled to that opinion.

However, I also have every right, understanding science, chlorophyll, light, and the mechanisms of the eye, and how all of that affects colour, to think that you are an absolute fucking moron.

You see, it's not that atheists want to force theists to believe, or disbelieve anything. We just want them to quit using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit.

Just sayin'.

If only everyone was as hateful as you.

 

[Czernobog]

I want to be clear about something. Many Christians, and Muslims think that atheists want to deny them the right to believe what they they wish, and to have personal opinion. This is absolutely not true.

You have every right to believe that the grass is green because, every morning the Little Green Grass Fairy comes out and paints each blade with her tiny, little Green Grass Brush. No one has any right to tell you that you are not entitled to that opinion.

However, I also have every right, understanding science, chlorophyll, light, and the mechanisms of the eye, and how all of that affects colour, to think that you are an absolute fucking moron.

You see, it's not that atheists want to force theists to believe, or disbelieve anything. We just want them to quit using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit.

Just sayin'.

If, the "theists" are using the government to enshrine their mythologies in the laws of the land, and we want them to quit indoctrinating young, impressionable children with their made-up bullshit, how is it that Atheists exist at all?

I didn't say they were entirely successful.