The Problem With keynesian economics

[Polk]

Republicans are against mal-investments, i.e., Solyndra bridges to nowhere that create bubbles( like the housing bubble) that cause depressions.

Now you no how FDR prolonged the depression for 10 years and became a hero to idiot liberals.

IF BO can prolong this depression for 10 years he will also be a hero to idiot liberals.

When you think that millions and millions supported Hitler Stalin and Mao and that our liberals spied for Stalin its not so hard to believe.

I do enjoy being called an idiot by someone who tells someone "how you no how" fictional events occurred. Also, that he thinks liberals were behind building a bridge to an island with just a handful of people in a state whose entire Congressional delegation at the time was made of Republicans.

dear, they may have been Republicans but they were not acting like Republicans. Nevertheless, 100% of the energy for limited government comes from the Republican Party

We all know no true Scotsman would ever do that!

 

[Polk]

Everyone?

Obama says stimulus package is right size, scope | Reuters

There's a difference between knowing something and saying what you know.

I don't think Obama knew that the stimulus was too small. He is a lousy leader because he was never able to choose right advisers. He is not very bright.

He knew the stimulus was too small. Read Scheiber's book (The Escape Artists: How Obama's Team Fumbled the Recovery), and you'll see that the economic team were all telling him the stimulus was too small, while the political advisers ignored it by saying they couldn't get more from Congress anyway.

 

[Polk]

Saying that the Republicans could have stopped it if he had pushed for more money is even more ridiculous.

Why did he lie?

What's ridiculous about it? You must live in this fantasy world where the filibuster doesn't exist.

It is not an excuse for not trying to do the right thing. Obama should have proposed the right measures for ending the economic crisis. And if Republicans would dare to filibuster, he should have blamed them for turning financial crisis into prolonged depression.

Unfortunately Obama is a lousy leader and a total cretin when it comes to political games. He was never able to choose the right advice either, although it was given to him. Obama is simply not that bright.

Still, US was fortunate not to have a convinced madman at the helm, otherwise it would have fared much worse -- Europe is a good example.

What possible purpose would have that served? The Republican response would be the same as it is now.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because telling the truth wouldn't have done anything except give Republicans something to club him over the head with. Saying he needed to tell the truth is based on the idea that the Republicans would have supported additional stimulus if he had said more was needed. That's a pretty laughable claim.

Saying that the Republicans could have stopped it if he had pushed for more money is even more ridiculous.

Why did he lie?

What's ridiculous about it? You must live in this fantasy world where the filibuster doesn't exist.

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

 

[Polk]

Saying that the Republicans could have stopped it if he had pushed for more money is even more ridiculous.

Why did he lie?

What's ridiculous about it? You must live in this fantasy world where the filibuster doesn't exist.

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

 

[ilia25]

There's a difference between knowing something and saying what you know.

I don't think Obama knew that the stimulus was too small. He is a lousy leader because he was never able to choose right advisers. He is not very bright.

He knew the stimulus was too small. Read Scheiber's book (The Escape Artists: How Obama's Team Fumbled the Recovery), and you'll see that the economic team were all telling him the stimulus was too small, while the political advisers ignored it by saying they couldn't get more from Congress anyway.

As far as I remember Obama's team were giving too rosy perditions of how the stimulus will reduce the unemployment. They clearly underestimated how bad the economy was.

If Obama really knew all that was not true, then his decisions are completely inexplicable.

What possible purpose would have that served? The Republican response would be the same as it is now.

Yes, but then Obama would have been able to blame Republicans for blocking the stimulus and causing the depression we are in now. The way he played it, he discredited the whole idea of stimulating the economy by claiming that the small stimulus would be enough, while it clearly was not.

And he keeps making fool out himself by taking credit for every little sign that economy is getting better, before taking another plunge. Look, I wish Obama was the leader many his supporters were hoping for, but he is not. And he will not become one even if manages to survive the next elections.

 

[ilia25]

What's ridiculous about it? You must live in this fantasy world where the filibuster doesn't exist.

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

But why he had play these games in the first place? He was not seeking a pretext to invade Iraq, he was trying to save the economy! He did not have to be misleading about his intentions. If he thought we needed a bigger stimulus, the he should have asked for it.

 

[Polk]

I don't think Obama knew that the stimulus was too small. He is a lousy leader because he was never able to choose right advisers. He is not very bright.

He knew the stimulus was too small. Read Scheiber's book (The Escape Artists: How Obama's Team Fumbled the Recovery), and you'll see that the economic team were all telling him the stimulus was too small, while the political advisers ignored it by saying they couldn't get more from Congress anyway.

As far as I remember Obama's team were giving too rosy perditions of how the stimulus will reduce the unemployment. They clearly underestimated how bad the economy was.

If Obama really knew all that was not true, then his decisions are completely inexplicable.

If you're referring to the chart from the transition, it's important to note that no one knew the scale of the crisis at that point. Even the prelim data wasn't in yet. By the time the stimulus was being debated, the depth of the situation was much more clear. However, Obama didn't see it as worthwhile to fight for more stimulus. You may think that was the wrong decision, but there's nothing obviously objectionable about it (it was hard enough to pass the amount that was passed).

What possible purpose would have that served? The Republican response would be the same as it is now.

Yes, but then Obama would have been able to blame Republicans for blocking the stimulus and causing the depression we are in now. The way he played it, he discredited the whole idea of stimulating the economy by claiming that the small stimulus would be enough, while it clearly was not.

And he keeps making fool out himself by taking credit for every little sign that economy is getting better, before taking another plunge. Look, I wish Obama was the leader many his supporters were hoping for, but he is not. And he will not become one even if manages to survive the next elections.

Who would actually care about him blaming the Republicans? People who already support him. The Republicans would claim that they were trying to prevent him from spending like crazy and that the economy is bad because he's a shitty president. The idiots in the middle would see it as a he-said, she-said, then assign the blame to Obama because he's in the Oval Office.

 

[Polk]

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

But why he had play these games in the first place? He was not seeking a pretext to invade Iraq, he was trying to save the economy! He did not have to be misleading about his intentions. If he thought we needed a bigger stimulus, the he should have asked for it.

He tried to get Congress to pass the biggest bill he possibly could. He made a mistake in his calculation of how Congress would approach the bill (a mistake I won't fault him for, because all of us would have made it). Your argument works on the assumption that everyone in Congress wanted to "save the economy". The Republicans made it clear from the very beginning of the Obama presidency that their biggest goal was winning back the White House in 2012, even if they had to tank the economy to it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What's ridiculous about it? You must live in this fantasy world where the filibuster doesn't exist.

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

Damn, now you can read minds. What next, the ability to predict the future?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

even if they had to tank the economy to it.

so what did they do to tank the economy??????

 

[ilia25]

even if they had to tank the economy to it.

so what did they do to tank the economy??????

They pressured Fed to keep inflation low and they demanded cuts in government spending at the time when it needed more stimulus. And by threatening to force a default, they made clear that they will not allow any steps that could possibly help the economy to recover.

 

[ilia25]

He knew the stimulus was too small. Read Scheiber's book (The Escape Artists: How Obama's Team Fumbled the Recovery), and you'll see that the economic team were all telling him the stimulus was too small, while the political advisers ignored it by saying they couldn't get more from Congress anyway.

As far as I remember Obama's team were giving too rosy perditions of how the stimulus will reduce the unemployment. They clearly underestimated how bad the economy was.

If Obama really knew all that was not true, then his decisions are completely inexplicable.

If you're referring to the chart from the transition, it's important to note that no one knew the scale of the crisis at that point.

How Did We Know The Stimulus Was Too Small? - NYTimes.com

What possible purpose would have that served? The Republican response would be the same as it is now.

Yes, but then Obama would have been able to blame Republicans for blocking the stimulus and causing the depression we are in now. The way he played it, he discredited the whole idea of stimulating the economy by claiming that the small stimulus would be enough, while it clearly was not.

And he keeps making fool out himself by taking credit for every little sign that economy is getting better, before taking another plunge. Look, I wish Obama was the leader many his supporters were hoping for, but he is not. And he will not become one even if manages to survive the next elections.

Who would actually care about him blaming the Republicans?

The voters would care. This is how democracy is supposed to work -- each politician tries to explain why his vision is right, and why his opponents are wrong. And voters then decide on who is more convincing.

Obama is terrible at getting his message across, probably because he has no coherent vision on the economy. Or he is afraid of alienating Republicans in the Congress. In any case, a great communicator he is not.

He tried to get Congress to pass the biggest bill he possibly could.

Which was counter-productive, because too small a stimulus would not help the economy to recover, but it would discredit the whole idea and, thus, will ensure that any future attempts of pulling the economy out of depression will be a political non-starter.

 

[Polk]

The filibuster that prevented Obamacare from passing?

Newsflash, genius, he pushed for the stimulus right after his election, and never once tried to do anything about how large it was, despite the fact that multiple "experts" thought it should be larger. It would have been quite easy to make it larger than it was because at least two Republican Senators thought it needed to be bigger. In fact, the version that passed in the Senate was actually larger than the one Obama signed.

That makes your assertion that Republicans kept it small through a filibuster so absurd that only a partisan hack deep into an alternate reality would even try to argue it.

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

Damn, now you can read minds. What next, the ability to predict the future?

Why would I have to read minds? You realize there are books written on this topic, right? It's not like we're just sitting out in a field trying to call upon the cosmos for answers.

 

[Rshermr]

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

Damn, now you can read minds. What next, the ability to predict the future?

Why would I have to read minds? You realize there are books written on this topic, right? It's not like we're just sitting out in a field trying to call upon the cosmos for answers.

Jesus, guys. The first and only stimulus was not that long ago in terms of understanding what happened. What happened was that every repub was voting against, and a couple of blue dog dems were voting with them. There was never a filibuster proof majority in real terms.
Obama took what he could get. Had to go along with a good deal of the stimulus as tax breaks to get enough votes.
Not a great stimulus, but some stimulus and it did do some good. According to the CBO, somewhere between 1.3 and 3.4 m jobs, as I recall, though i could easily be off a few.

Since then, repubs have filibustered EVERY attempt at stimulus spending of any kind. Question is, are they that stupid, or do they care about nothing except crashing the economy.

 

[Rshermr]

Everyone?

Obama says stimulus package is right size, scope | Reuters

There's a difference between knowing something and saying what you know.

I don't think Obama knew that the stimulus was too small. He is a lousy leader because he was never able to choose right advisers. He is not very bright.

Well, Polk, welcome to the world of trying to have a discussion with tea baggers. Ed is a typical example, can not back up his statements, knows absolutely nothing except what his masters tell him.

I have tried to understand the con mind for years, and think I finally do after a lot of looking at studies, going to tea party gatherings, and so forth. The same mentality as was here pre tea party, with the bobble heads who listen to Fox.

Basically, they like being angry, they like being told what to believe, and they like to have all the answers spoon fed to them. Sad state to be in, but they like it.

So, if you get into a discussion with someone like ed, it will never lead anywhere. Just lots of mindless insults and no back up of their claims. Pretty much always just get mad and start slinging insults. Which is why you really can not have a discussion with a con. They are incapable.

 

[Rshermr]

Why have they voted against anything except tax decreases and decreases in services to those not rich.

Why would intelligent people vote for taxes , liberal.
If millions of average Joes keep their money ( instead of having it taxed away by liberals) they spend it regularly in sustainable ways that grow the economic based on their real needs.

When liberals steal the money they prevent the sustainable development of the economy and instead give us bubbles and depressions.

Jesus, ed. At it again with your itsy bitsy brain. Can't come up with a time when tax decreases helped, can you genius.
So, another quick economics lesson for you, ed. Though I am sure you will be unable to follow this.

Bush 2 cut taxes, and it led to one of the worst economies ever.

Clinton raised taxes, had one of the best economies of the past 40 years, and a DEFICIT.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Obama made an assumption about Congress that turned out to not be true (he thought they'd end up seeing the bill as a Christmas tree and adding money for a lot of their little pet projects). You could say in retrospect that was stupid, but I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that it was a stupid idea at the time.

Damn, now you can read minds. What next, the ability to predict the future?

Why would I have to read minds? You realize there are books written on this topic, right? It's not like we're just sitting out in a field trying to call upon the cosmos for answers.

Books were written about how incompetent Obama is? When? Who wrote them? Where can I get copies?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Damn, now you can read minds. What next, the ability to predict the future?

Why would I have to read minds? You realize there are books written on this topic, right? It's not like we're just sitting out in a field trying to call upon the cosmos for answers.

Jesus, guys. The first and only stimulus was not that long ago in terms of understanding what happened. What happened was that every repub was voting against, and a couple of blue dog dems were voting with them. There was never a filibuster proof majority in real terms.
Obama took what he could get. Had to go along with a good deal of the stimulus as tax breaks to get enough votes.
Not a great stimulus, but some stimulus and it did do some good. According to the CBO, somewhere between 1.3 and 3.4 m jobs, as I recall, though i could easily be off a few.

Since then, repubs have filibustered EVERY attempt at stimulus spending of any kind. Question is, are they that stupid, or do they care about nothing except crashing the economy.

You really should get your head out of your ass. The ARRA passed with 3 Republican votes in the Senate, that is a matter of public record.

 

[Reptilian]

It's psychopathic