The left claims the rich are stealing all the money, what say you?

[Skull Pilot]

I have been self employed for 23 years or so. I lost my retirement in my divorce to my ex-wife so I could keep the business. She isn't rich.

I lose mega taxes everyday to local and federal govts. They aren't the rich.

This economy has made it very difficult to recover to previous levels. The economy isn't rich.

Slowly I'm rebuilding lost wealth with no help from anyone but myself. I am not rich but I am very comfortable.

There are greedy people among us but for the most part they only get what you allow them to take from you. The biggest thief of all time is the United States Congress. And YOU do have control over them IF you choose to exercise it.

You should be like Mitt Romney. He has over $100 million in his IRA. He must be pretty darn smart to accomplish that since the max you can put in per year is $6,000.

Don't blame Mitt because you're a loser and don't offshore your money to avoid paying taxes.

I didn't make $100 million, but I did make a substantial amount of money in my self-directed IRA by buying and selling stocks. For example, the 500 shares of Apple (AAPL) that I bought in 2003 @$7.50 a share cost me $3750.00 and are now worth a little over $303,000. I did not have to pay any capital gains tax on the earnings, but when I draw the money out of my IRA, it will be taxed as ordinary income.

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

 

[Dr Grump]

because a person has to work his ass of to achieve success, for some damn nit wit in congress to decide that you have to give 35% of what you worked for to the gov. who is greedy and wasteful is punishment. They don't appreciate the money, they just piss it away as fast as you can send it to them.. so to be successful is to be punished in the form of tax, all tax is punitive.. to be lazy and unsuccessful is to not be taxed but to be a taker. the taker is rewarded through the fruits of the successful's punitive tax. now go ahead and deny that.

If he didn't get taxed at 35 % he would earn that much. What, you don't think employers and employees look at the tax rates when setting salaries?
Taxes are a necessary evil...in a civilised society..

 

[The Rabbi]

You should be like Mitt Romney. He has over $100 million in his IRA. He must be pretty darn smart to accomplish that since the max you can put in per year is $6,000.

Don't blame Mitt because you're a loser and don't offshore your money to avoid paying taxes.

I didn't make $100 million, but I did make a substantial amount of money in my self-directed IRA by buying and selling stocks. For example, the 500 shares of Apple (AAPL) that I bought in 2003 @$7.50 a share cost me $3750.00 and are now worth a little over $303,000. I did not have to pay any capital gains tax on the earnings, but when I draw the money out of my IRA, it will be taxed as ordinary income.

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

Because if it's not held in the IRA then taxes are due every year on the income in the account. Why do you think they are a scam?

 

[Dr Grump]

[

because a person has to work his ass of to achieve success, for some damn nit wit in congress to decide that you have to give 35% of what you worked for to the gov. who is greedy and wasteful is punishment. They don't appreciate the money, they just piss it away as fast as you can send it to them.. so to be successful is to be punished in the form of tax, all tax is punitive.. to be lazy and unsuccessful is to not be taxed but to be a taker. the taker is rewarded through the fruits of the successful's punitive tax. now go ahead and deny that.

If he didn't get taxed at 35 % he wouldn't earn as much. What, you don't think employers and employees look at the tax rates when setting salaries?
Taxes are a necessary evil...in a civilised society..

 

[Too Tall]

Uhh it's the math that shows that the money is concentrating at the top.

You can blame the left but it's the Math.

First I want to say that "THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT TAXES"

Now that that is out of the way lets address your idiotic post.

You can do math till youre blue in the face and all you get are results that show 2 things:

1. The rich are rich and you (apparently) are not.....why is that?
2. There are more rich today than ever in the past...why is that?


Did the rich take money from you? They certainly didnt from me. In fact the rich support the bottom half of our country as well as the govt. That is MANY get their money and necessities met specifically BECAUSE OF THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE RICH.

Then you have the fact that their are many more "rich" today than ever in the past. Could it be that they fucking worked harder and risked more than the average American? How many risks have you taken with your career and your assets? Or are you content in your cubicle? Dont blame others for your lack of ambition.

Then we have people LIKE YOU who convince the bottom half that their plight is not of their own making. Thus enabeling them to become even more complacent in their dead end lives and making them believe your complete nonsense that its someone elses fault.

Anyone and everyone has the same basic opportunities in life. Its up to them as individuals to do something about it. Im living proof.
At 20 years of age I was released after 3 years in prison. Upon release I went to college and trade school to better my life. I didnt sit around and moan about how fucked up my childhood was and make excuses for my position in life. I took arguably the worst scenario a person could be in and turned it into a business that has survived for around 23 years now.

In fact one could argue that my life is growing largely as a result of the contributions of the rich. Their successes in life have enabled them to retain my services, which then TRICKLE down to everyone that works for me as well as their families.

The rich are nothing more than a punching bag for people like you because youre too afraid to place the blame for your shortcomings where they belong.......ON YOU.

If you don't feel the rich have stolen from you, it's probably because you don't have an IRA. Three times I've watched mine grow slowly over the years and then fall like the flushing of a toilet. And I've never even had particularly risky investments. Our illustrious financial leaders have created a bubble machine par excellance. They should be dragged from their homes and offices and shot in the head.

If you are not happy investing in stocks and bonds, put your IRA money a money market account. It probablywon't keep up with inflation, but you won't lose your investment.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I didn't make $100 million, but I did make a substantial amount of money in my self-directed IRA by buying and selling stocks. For example, the 500 shares of Apple (AAPL) that I bought in 2003 @$7.50 a share cost me $3750.00 and are now worth a little over $303,000. I did not have to pay any capital gains tax on the earnings, but when I draw the money out of my IRA, it will be taxed as ordinary income.

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

Because if it's not held in the IRA then taxes are due every year on the income in the account. Why do you think they are a scam?

You only pay taxes on the gain when you realize it.

There are no annual taxes on investment accounts

IRAs etc are scams because the government tells you they are a way to defer taxes but what they don't tell you is that you have to pay a higher rate on the gains and they tell you how much you have to withdraw every year or else be penalized.

If you invested your money after taxes in a private account you would only pay the long term capital gains rate on the growth. You could withdraw the principle tax free since you already paid the taxes on it.

You could then only withdraw the money you need every year and leave the rest to continue growing instead of having to take out some minimum amount mandated by the government every year.

 

[Too Tall]

You should be like Mitt Romney. He has over $100 million in his IRA. He must be pretty darn smart to accomplish that since the max you can put in per year is $6,000.

Don't blame Mitt because you're a loser and don't offshore your money to avoid paying taxes.

I didn't make $100 million, but I did make a substantial amount of money in my self-directed IRA by buying and selling stocks. For example, the 500 shares of Apple (AAPL) that I bought in 2003 @$7.50 a share cost me $3750.00 and are now worth a little over $303,000. I did not have to pay any capital gains tax on the earnings, but when I draw the money out of my IRA, it will be taxed as ordinary income.

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

I got to deduct the contributions to my and my wife's IRA's when the tax rate was a lot higher and we made a lot more money than we do in retirement.

I also bought and sold stocks in my brokerage account and had to pay capital gains tax on my gains every year, and several years it put me in a higher tax bracket. Don't tell anyone, but one year I got to deduct some of my losses for some dumb investments.

By trading stocks in my IRA I don't have to pay any taxes until I withdraw the money. I am a net winner as long as ordinary income taxes are lower than when I made my contributions.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I didn't make $100 million, but I did make a substantial amount of money in my self-directed IRA by buying and selling stocks. For example, the 500 shares of Apple (AAPL) that I bought in 2003 @$7.50 a share cost me $3750.00 and are now worth a little over $303,000. I did not have to pay any capital gains tax on the earnings, but when I draw the money out of my IRA, it will be taxed as ordinary income.

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

I got to deduct the contributions to my and my wife's IRA's when the tax rate was a lot higher and we made a lot more money than we do in retirement.

I also bought and sold stocks in my brokerage account and had to pay capital gains tax on my gains every year, and several years it put me in a higher tax bracket. Don't tell anyone, but one year I got to deduct some of my losses for some dumb investments.

By trading stocks in my IRA I don't have to pay any taxes until I withdraw the money. I am a net winner as long as ordinary income taxes are lower than when I made my contributions.

But are they higher than the capital gains rate?

And if you didn't have to take out the required minimum every year your savings would last longer.

 

[Gideonprime]

Read the title of the thread, Einstein, then you MIGHT actually write your very first post actually dealing with the topic. Only a liberal could read "guilt" into someone talking about the actual thread topic, rather than whatever it is the liberal in question has tried to hijack the thread into being about.

Let me help you out, since having read your posts up until now, I can clearly see that you're a bit . . . challenged, shall we say?

Thread Title: The left claims the rich are stealing all the money, what say you?

And then YOU come along and tell us that this is so, because "math tells us the money is concentrated at the top". This, of course, only proves that rich people HAVE money. HAVING something is not the same as STEALING it, which - as I have pointed out - is the actual topic here.

There. I hope this will be sufficient explanation for you, and you won't actually require me to draw crayon diagrams for you.

Frankly you can say whatever you like. That does not however make it correct.

What the concentration of wealth at the top shows is that they can afford to purchase the votes they need to tilt the scales in their favor.

Is that theft? I am sure you would say no.

All you've just told me is that YOU will vote for whoever has the largest number of shiny, catchy ads. Since I wasn't finding your psychology all that hard to figure out - or all that interesting, either - I neither needed nor wanted this personal sharing from you. And since I know you're not bright enough to figure this out without being told let me just say: your willingness to sell your vote says nothing about anyone else.

As for "Is that theft?", try using your Internet connection to check out a dictionary once in a while in place of the porn sites.

Give up my porn? Not bloody likely.

As for sharing with you, you've read into it about what I would expect from a self absorbed know it all unable to look past your on preconceived notion of what others think.

 

[Too Tall]

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

I got to deduct the contributions to my and my wife's IRA's when the tax rate was a lot higher and we made a lot more money than we do in retirement.

I also bought and sold stocks in my brokerage account and had to pay capital gains tax on my gains every year, and several years it put me in a higher tax bracket. Don't tell anyone, but one year I got to deduct some of my losses for some dumb investments.

By trading stocks in my IRA I don't have to pay any taxes until I withdraw the money. I am a net winner as long as ordinary income taxes are lower than when I made my contributions.

But are they higher than the capital gains rate?

And if you didn't have to take out the required minimum every year your savings would last longer.

My effective tax rate is less than the capital gains tax.

I do agree that there are disadvantages to a traditional IRA. For one, I cannot take any losses off to balance any gains. And the Minimum Required Distribution pisses me off. At least Bush gave me a couple of years where I didn't have to do a withdrawal.

 

[Indofred]

Communism takes over the world, all people are granted equality and all money is distributed evenly to guarantee equality.

One man starts a small brewery/bar with his cash.
Another man drinks his beer and complains about how rich the bar owner is while he has nothing left.

Communism - epic fail.

 

[Dr Grump]

Give up my porn? Not bloody likely.

As for sharing with you, you've read into it about what I would expect from a self absorbed know it all unable to look past your on preconceived notion of what others think.

Didn't take you long to suss her out and hit the nail on the head...

 

[rightwinger]

Communism takes over the world, all people are granted equality and all money is distributed evenly to guarantee equality.

One man starts a small brewery/bar with his cash.
Another man drinks his beer and complains about how rich the bar owner is while he has nothing left.

Communism - epic fail.

Thought that one up all yourself huh???

Epic fail

 

[RDD_1210]

Common sense.

The federal government takes taxes then gives some with all kinds of strings attached back to the states.

That is inefficient. Not to mention a blatant way to subvert the sovereignty of the states.

We have nearly 50% of the population not paying income taxes and some of those people actually receive refunds that are greater than the taxes they paid in.

You people love to talk about "fair shares" and "shared burdens" and yet you excuse nearly 50% of the population. That makes no sense at all.

So just using those two examples we could easily lower the federal tax rate by letting states raise the taxes they need and spend that revenue with no federal coercion and by lowering the rate of federal income taxes and broadening the base to include everyone not just some.

Next we have to tackle the problem of the billions of dollars wasted by the government every year. Having a tight reign on the budget would allow a further reduction of taxes.

So tell me would you rather pay for the waste and inefficiency and let nearly half the population get a free ride or would you rather keep some more of your own money ?

Oh I get it, you're not so concerned how much your taxes are as you much as you're concerned what others are paying, or in your mind not paying. So I assume you were against the bush tax cuts then? I get it though, this is jealousy of the poor and in your mind that 50% have it good since they get a break on their federal income taxes. Never mind that they still pay SS, payroll, medicare, etc.....to you, our tax system is broken because they are getting a "free ride".

So it's OK with you that 50% of people pay no income tax and that some actually receive a refund larger than the taxes they paid in?

Isn't that one of your lynch pin arguments that we all live in a society and we are all better off for it? So then why shouldn't we all pay taxes?

I don't want to support lazy moochers either, but many of our poor and middle class genuinely need help. How do we differentiate the two? Seems you think everything with our system will be better if all of those "free loaders" were made to pay like you have to.

I didn't use terms like freeloader. That's you attempting to put words in my mouth and failing. And I don't think anyone should pay the tax rate that I do. 23% of anyone's income getting confiscated by the government is too much.

I get it, you don't have examples of countries with better tax structures our a time in our own history with a better tax structure but you just know our system is bad because you're jealous that the poorest among us get a break on a portion of their taxes. Sounds like some good old class warfare to me.

Why do we have to use some other country as an example?

Are you incapable of innovative thought to the extent that a new way of collecting revenue is completely beyond you?



And I'm not jealous of anyone. Fair and equal treatment of all citizens is objective and devoid of emotion

You start off by saying your taxes are too high and it turns out that you just want others to pay more. Good for you! You don't want lower taxes for you, you want higher taxes for others. Bravo!

 

[The Rabbi]

Why would you want to hold savings in an IRA and screw yourself over by having to pay ordinary income tax on the gains?

IRAs and 401Ks are a scam.

Because if it's not held in the IRA then taxes are due every year on the income in the account. Why do you think they are a scam?

You only pay taxes on the gain when you realize it.

There are no annual taxes on investment accounts

IRAs etc are scams because the government tells you they are a way to defer taxes but what they don't tell you is that you have to pay a higher rate on the gains and they tell you how much you have to withdraw every year or else be penalized.

If you invested your money after taxes in a private account you would only pay the long term capital gains rate on the growth. You could withdraw the principle tax free since you already paid the taxes on it.

You could then only withdraw the money you need every year and leave the rest to continue growing instead of having to take out some minimum amount mandated by the government every year.

Well, with the IRA you start with untaxed income. That's a 15% advantage right there. Then, all interest and dividends are untaxed in the IRA, taxed in the taxable account. The advantage in tax rate for investment vs earned income will go away in January with the expiration of the Bush/Obama tax cuts. They will be taxed the same. As for withdrawls, the theory is that your tax rate will be lower when you are making withdrawls since you will be retired.
Alternatively one could have a Roth IRA, which taxes immediately but is tax free on withdrawl.

 

[JoeNormal]

First I want to say that "THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT TAXES"

Now that that is out of the way lets address your idiotic post.

You can do math till youre blue in the face and all you get are results that show 2 things:

1. The rich are rich and you (apparently) are not.....why is that?
2. There are more rich today than ever in the past...why is that?


Did the rich take money from you? They certainly didnt from me. In fact the rich support the bottom half of our country as well as the govt. That is MANY get their money and necessities met specifically BECAUSE OF THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE RICH.

Then you have the fact that their are many more "rich" today than ever in the past. Could it be that they fucking worked harder and risked more than the average American? How many risks have you taken with your career and your assets? Or are you content in your cubicle? Dont blame others for your lack of ambition.

Then we have people LIKE YOU who convince the bottom half that their plight is not of their own making. Thus enabeling them to become even more complacent in their dead end lives and making them believe your complete nonsense that its someone elses fault.

Anyone and everyone has the same basic opportunities in life. Its up to them as individuals to do something about it. Im living proof.
At 20 years of age I was released after 3 years in prison. Upon release I went to college and trade school to better my life. I didnt sit around and moan about how fucked up my childhood was and make excuses for my position in life. I took arguably the worst scenario a person could be in and turned it into a business that has survived for around 23 years now.

In fact one could argue that my life is growing largely as a result of the contributions of the rich. Their successes in life have enabled them to retain my services, which then TRICKLE down to everyone that works for me as well as their families.

The rich are nothing more than a punching bag for people like you because youre too afraid to place the blame for your shortcomings where they belong.......ON YOU.

If you don't feel the rich have stolen from you, it's probably because you don't have an IRA. Three times I've watched mine grow slowly over the years and then fall like the flushing of a toilet. And I've never even had particularly risky investments. Our illustrious financial leaders have created a bubble machine par excellance. They should be dragged from their homes and offices and shot in the head.

I have retirement savings and let me tell you that the government has made sure that IRAs, 401Ks etc are not that good of a deal.

For one all the growth gets taxed at the regular income rate.

Tell me how is the government watching out for the middle class by fucking them out of their retirement income with a higher tax rate?

Then the government will tell you how much money you have to withdraw every year or else they penalize you.

You'd be better off investing your money after taxes in a private account. Then you would only pay the long term capital gains rate and you would be able to control how much you take out every year.

Part of my benefit package includes a pretty generous company match for 401k contributions. I'll check out what you've suggested but it's hard to believe I'd come out ahead.

 

[JoeNormal]

First I want to say that "THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT TAXES"

Now that that is out of the way lets address your idiotic post.

You can do math till youre blue in the face and all you get are results that show 2 things:

1. The rich are rich and you (apparently) are not.....why is that?
2. There are more rich today than ever in the past...why is that?


Did the rich take money from you? They certainly didnt from me. In fact the rich support the bottom half of our country as well as the govt. That is MANY get their money and necessities met specifically BECAUSE OF THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE RICH.

Then you have the fact that their are many more "rich" today than ever in the past. Could it be that they fucking worked harder and risked more than the average American? How many risks have you taken with your career and your assets? Or are you content in your cubicle? Dont blame others for your lack of ambition.

Then we have people LIKE YOU who convince the bottom half that their plight is not of their own making. Thus enabeling them to become even more complacent in their dead end lives and making them believe your complete nonsense that its someone elses fault.

Anyone and everyone has the same basic opportunities in life. Its up to them as individuals to do something about it. Im living proof.
At 20 years of age I was released after 3 years in prison. Upon release I went to college and trade school to better my life. I didnt sit around and moan about how fucked up my childhood was and make excuses for my position in life. I took arguably the worst scenario a person could be in and turned it into a business that has survived for around 23 years now.

In fact one could argue that my life is growing largely as a result of the contributions of the rich. Their successes in life have enabled them to retain my services, which then TRICKLE down to everyone that works for me as well as their families.

The rich are nothing more than a punching bag for people like you because youre too afraid to place the blame for your shortcomings where they belong.......ON YOU.

If you don't feel the rich have stolen from you, it's probably because you don't have an IRA. Three times I've watched mine grow slowly over the years and then fall like the flushing of a toilet. And I've never even had particularly risky investments. Our illustrious financial leaders have created a bubble machine par excellance. They should be dragged from their homes and offices and shot in the head.

If you are not happy investing in stocks and bonds, put your IRA money a money market account. It probablywon't keep up with inflation, but you won't lose your investment.

Thanks. I actually did that before the last bubble burst. Turns out, this would have beaten the return rate for the riskier mix over the last 10 years.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If you don't feel the rich have stolen from you, it's probably because you don't have an IRA. Three times I've watched mine grow slowly over the years and then fall like the flushing of a toilet. And I've never even had particularly risky investments. Our illustrious financial leaders have created a bubble machine par excellance. They should be dragged from their homes and offices and shot in the head.

I have retirement savings and let me tell you that the government has made sure that IRAs, 401Ks etc are not that good of a deal.

For one all the growth gets taxed at the regular income rate.

Tell me how is the government watching out for the middle class by fucking them out of their retirement income with a higher tax rate?

Then the government will tell you how much money you have to withdraw every year or else they penalize you.

You'd be better off investing your money after taxes in a private account. Then you would only pay the long term capital gains rate and you would be able to control how much you take out every year.

Part of my benefit package includes a pretty generous company match for 401k contributions. I'll check out what you've suggested but it's hard to believe I'd come out ahead.

put in enough to max out your match but look into the after tax option

Run the numbers

 

[Skull Pilot]

Oh I get it, you're not so concerned how much your taxes are as you much as you're concerned what others are paying, or in your mind not paying. So I assume you were against the bush tax cuts then? I get it though, this is jealousy of the poor and in your mind that 50% have it good since they get a break on their federal income taxes. Never mind that they still pay SS, payroll, medicare, etc.....to you, our tax system is broken because they are getting a "free ride".

So it's OK with you that 50% of people pay no income tax and that some actually receive a refund larger than the taxes they paid in?

Isn't that one of your lynch pin arguments that we all live in a society and we are all better off for it? So then why shouldn't we all pay taxes?



I didn't use terms like freeloader. That's you attempting to put words in my mouth and failing. And I don't think anyone should pay the tax rate that I do. 23% of anyone's income getting confiscated by the government is too much.

I get it, you don't have examples of countries with better tax structures our a time in our own history with a better tax structure but you just know our system is bad because you're jealous that the poorest among us get a break on a portion of their taxes. Sounds like some good old class warfare to me.

Why do we have to use some other country as an example?

Are you incapable of innovative thought to the extent that a new way of collecting revenue is completely beyond you?



And I'm not jealous of anyone. Fair and equal treatment of all citizens is objective and devoid of emotion

You start off by saying your taxes are too high and it turns out that you just want others to pay more. Good for you! You don't want lower taxes for you, you want higher taxes for others. Bravo!

You really have a problem with reading comprehension don't you?

Tell me how does this statement mean to you that I want higher taxes

23% of anyone's income getting confiscated by the government is too much.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to want everyone to pay taxes but you obviously think it is.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Because if it's not held in the IRA then taxes are due every year on the income in the account. Why do you think they are a scam?

You only pay taxes on the gain when you realize it.

There are no annual taxes on investment accounts

IRAs etc are scams because the government tells you they are a way to defer taxes but what they don't tell you is that you have to pay a higher rate on the gains and they tell you how much you have to withdraw every year or else be penalized.

If you invested your money after taxes in a private account you would only pay the long term capital gains rate on the growth. You could withdraw the principle tax free since you already paid the taxes on it.

You could then only withdraw the money you need every year and leave the rest to continue growing instead of having to take out some minimum amount mandated by the government every year.

Well, with the IRA you start with untaxed income. That's a 15% advantage right there. Then, all interest and dividends are untaxed in the IRA, taxed in the taxable account. The advantage in tax rate for investment vs earned income will go away in January with the expiration of the Bush/Obama tax cuts. They will be taxed the same. As for withdrawls, the theory is that your tax rate will be lower when you are making withdrawls since you will be retired.
Alternatively one could have a Roth IRA, which taxes immediately but is tax free on withdrawl.

It's not really an advantage.

If you deposited 5000 a year into an IRA for 40 years assuming an 8% return you'd have about 1.6 million

At age 70 you would have to take out 58K even if you could live on 30K

If you were single you'd owe about 8 grand.

Now if you deposited 4250 a year in a privately held account for 40 years at the same rate you'd have 1.35 million

170K of that can be used tax free.

If you need 40K a year you could basically not pay income tax for 4 years and then only pay the capital gains rate on the rest.