The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[montelatici]

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

 

[flacaltenn]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

 

[flacaltenn]

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​

How so?

 

[flacaltenn]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​

How so?

Just told you PF.. They chose a terrorist organization to represent them. A choice that they should KNOW would end the chances of having unfettered seaports and airports.. Are you not following this??? THEY CHOSE NOT to value those things when they elected Hamas and shut down the democratic process of the PA...

PA barely exists today because of that decision...
You should ACCEPT their choices..

 

[montelatici]

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..

The air space wasn't shared it was Israeli air space. Even approach control was Israeli. By the way, CNS is what I do.

 

[flacaltenn]

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..

The air space wasn't shared it was Israeli air space. Even approach control was Israeli. By the way, CNS is what I do.

Well good.. Then you appreciate the subtleties of expecting EXCLUSIVE airspace control over a tiny spec like Gaza.. Why is this not a cooperation issue for discussion? What was the ATControl network that Gaza had to support "its airspace"?

 

[montelatici]

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..

The air space wasn't shared it was Israeli air space. Even approach control was Israeli. By the way, CNS is what I do.

Well good.. Then you appreciate the subtleties of expecting EXCLUSIVE airspace control over a tiny spec like Gaza.. Why is this not a cooperation issue for discussion? What was the ATControl network that Gaza had to support "its airspace"?

All sovereign states have the right to control their own air space. Gaza may not have had a primary or secondary radar, but they should have had the right to solicit a feed from Jordan or Egypt instead of having their air space controlled by Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​

How so?

Just told you PF.. They chose a terrorist organization to represent them. A choice that they should KNOW would end the chances of having unfettered seaports and airports.. Are you not following this??? THEY CHOSE NOT to value those things when they elected Hamas and shut down the democratic process of the PA...

PA barely exists today because of that decision...
You should ACCEPT their choices..

How did a democratic election shut down the democratic process of the PA?

 

[Billo_Really]

Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..

When is the NEXT PA Election jerk-off? When was the LAST ONE ??

It's none of Israel's fuckin' business who Gazans choose to represent them. And you do not have any right telling someone else what they can (and cannot) do on their own property.

 

[Billo_Really]

Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..

Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves against Israeli occupation?

 

[Hossfly]

Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..

When is the NEXT PA Election jerk-off? When was the LAST ONE ??

It's none of Israel's fuckin' business who Gazans choose to represent them. And you do not have any right telling someone else what they can (and cannot) do on their own property.

The unwashed electing terrorists makes them terrorists. They don't deserve squat.

 

[Hossfly]

Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..

Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves against Israeli occupation?

They do if they were being occupied. But they ain't being occupied.

 

[montelatici]

Figured that was your position. I'm sure we (USA) don't have any right to contain other countries that pose a threat to our security either..

Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves against Israeli occupation?

They do if they were being occupied. But they ain't being occupied.

Of course they are occupied, or else Israel would not have the right to inspect imports.

 

[Roudy]

The plain fact is that NGOs and governments have a policy of not allowing the oppressing party to distribute aid for the reasons stated. It really doesn't matter what you think.

Then virtually no aid would ever flow to Africa or Somalia or other worldly hellholes. In fact -- the GOVERNMENTS STEAL that aid and do a lousy job of distribution. Look at our mess just attempting to "aid" Somalia. YET -- THAT didn't stop NGOs from sending the goods in.. You are inventing NGO policies that don't apply to customs and security inspections..

Humanitarian aid delivery policy is designed to avoid the possibility that belligerents can use the delay, acceleration and ultimate delivery of aid (manipulation) as a means of gaining an advantage in a struggle military, political or otherwise. Neutrality of aid organizations is a primary necessity.

THese seem like how you WANT things to be. Rather than how they are. Aid organizations are kissing ass of corrupt governments all the time. As far as belligerent delays --- I encounter them every week. Used to be the Chinese would DISMANTLE any electronics I sent over there. Often arrived with pieces missing or just a pile of parts. Cry me a river...

HOWEVER --- if you have evidence that there ARE belligerent delays at the Israeli port -- we can discuss that.
If there wasn't a military government in charge of Gaza -- there would be less chances that Gaza is trying to gain a military advantage eh?

If you have to pull the ship's apart to find rocket kits and weapons -- that's how it is.. Happens on our borders all the freaking time. From your perspective -- humanitarian aid would INCLUDE rockets and explosives.. Am I right?

Yup. Here is Monte's idea of a humanitarian ship. Of course if you ask Monte and Tinmore, Hamas has every right to kill all the Jews it can get its hands on, just like his hero the genocidal Nazi Mufti of Palestine.

Israel intercepts ship with weapons headed to Gaza - CNN.com

 

[Roudy]

Point is -- Plans and CONSTRUCTION of both an airport and a seaport for the Gazans were in the works....

The people of Gaza did not VALUE those things.. They supported Hamas. Their Loss.. NOT my problem...

Opened in 1998. Bombed in 2000.

Let a terrorist organization have an airport to launch its attacks from, why not?

 

[Roudy]

Kinda ruins the argument that Israel NEVER released control of Gaza airspace or commerce. Even BEFORE the withdrawal..

As part of the withdrawal, there were plans and process set up to REOPEN and rebuild the Airport..
Was not very important to the Gazans evidently.. THey KNEW a Hamas govt would end any chance of that happening. THEY made the decision..

The Israelis assigned slots and controlled the air space and controlled entry and exit.

Of course -- The airport approach and departure lanes are SHARED airspace. A little cooperation there is a GOOD thing.. That's how air traffic control works. If Israel didn't want Iranian flights into their airspace (for example) -- they should have a say in the matter..

The air space wasn't shared it was Israeli air space. Even approach control was Israeli. By the way, CNS is what I do.

Well good.. Then you appreciate the subtleties of expecting EXCLUSIVE airspace control over a tiny spec like Gaza.. Why is this not a cooperation issue for discussion? What was the ATControl network that Gaza had to support "its airspace"?

All sovereign states have the right to control their own air space. Gaza may not have had a primary or secondary radar, but they should have had the right to solicit a feed from Jordan or Egypt instead of having their air space controlled by Israel.

So you want the same entity that digs terror tunnels, shoots thousands of rockets at Israel, and is listed as a terrorist organization by both the U.S. and Europe to also have an airport and a radar? Why not. Let's just give them nukes. Might as well.

 

[flacaltenn]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​

How so?

Just told you PF.. They chose a terrorist organization to represent them. A choice that they should KNOW would end the chances of having unfettered seaports and airports.. Are you not following this??? THEY CHOSE NOT to value those things when they elected Hamas and shut down the democratic process of the PA...

PA barely exists today because of that decision...
You should ACCEPT their choices..

How did a democratic election shut down the democratic process of the PA?

You are really not getting this are you? It's easy.. Israel withdrew from Gaza and a process started to give control to the PA -- INCLUDING (as I posted) the right to a port and commerce and trade. Was ready to talk about reopening the Airport. Discussing connections between West Bank and Gaza thru Israel. In other words -- a MEANINGFUL peace process. Negotiated almost fully with a PA VOID of Hamas.

Gaza is opened up --- and elections come. The people of Gaza (mainly) TOSSED the peace process and the port and the airport DOWN THE TUBES and choose Hamas as most of their leadership. Fighting ensues, the PA is irretrievably fractured.. At the time Hamas won elections -- the people SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the consequences. That's what an informed democratic electorate does. Thus --- THEY CHOSE militantcy, division of the PA and crapped on the economic future of Gaza --- INSTEAD of a port and an airport. Or access to Egypt. Or any number of GOOD things that might have happened.. Was THEIR decision -- THEIR values and YOU need to live with their decision.

That WAS no democratic election.. That "election" KILLED the PA as a functional representational govt. As witnessed by the LACK of any meaningful NEW elections or a functioning Congress. THERE IS NO representative govt for Palestine anymore because of their actions.. The terrorists are in charge.

When elect folks who literally kill each other over political control and never offer FUTURE elections, that's a lot more lot a coup.

 

[flacaltenn]

Yeah -- after a bloody fight for control. The Freedom of Gaza was NOT given to Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The WORLD immediately isolated Gaza after the infection that you call an election..

When is the NEXT PA Election jerk-off? When was the LAST ONE ??

It's none of Israel's fuckin' business who Gazans choose to represent them. And you do not have any right telling someone else what they can (and cannot) do on their own property.

Au Contraire.. Not just Israel, but Egypt. Not just neighbors but most of the civilized world recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization. When you CHOOSE terrrorist organizations as your leadership --- you can expect NO MORE elections. No more peace process. Because --- ANY country that opposes terrorism WILL sanction you.. That's what they chose --- you didn't vote on it. Respect their choice.

OR --- better yet. WORK to get the Palestinians NEW and RESPONSIBLE leadership that WILL continue to have elections, work to have sanctions removed and CARE about the economic future of the people.. If you gave a flying fuck about Palestinians and their bad situation --- that's what needs to happen..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..

Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gaza Seaport
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.

Airport

The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues of security arrangements, construction, and operation.

- See more at: Agreement on Access and Movement AAM Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing - Text Non-UN document 15 November 2005

Gazans made the choice in 2005 to junk this peace process..​

How so?

Just told you PF.. They chose a terrorist organization to represent them. A choice that they should KNOW would end the chances of having unfettered seaports and airports.. Are you not following this??? THEY CHOSE NOT to value those things when they elected Hamas and shut down the democratic process of the PA...

PA barely exists today because of that decision...
You should ACCEPT their choices..

How did a democratic election shut down the democratic process of the PA?

You are really not getting this are you? It's easy.. Israel withdrew from Gaza and a process started to give control to the PA -- INCLUDING (as I posted) the right to a port and commerce and trade. Was ready to talk about reopening the Airport. Discussing connections between West Bank and Gaza thru Israel. In other words -- a MEANINGFUL peace process. Negotiated almost fully with a PA VOID of Hamas.

Gaza is opened up --- and elections come. The people of Gaza (mainly) TOSSED the peace process and the port and the airport DOWN THE TUBES and choose Hamas as most of their leadership. Fighting ensues, the PA is irretrievably fractured.. At the time Hamas won elections -- the people SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the consequences. That's what an informed democratic electorate does. Thus --- THEY CHOSE militantcy, division of the PA and crapped on the economic future of Gaza --- INSTEAD of a port and an airport. Or access to Egypt. Or any number of GOOD things that might have happened.. Was THEIR decision -- THEIR values and YOU need to live with their decision.

That WAS no democratic election.. That "election" KILLED the PA as a functional representational govt. As witnessed by the LACK of any meaningful NEW elections or a functioning Congress. THERE IS NO representative govt for Palestine anymore because of their actions.. The terrorists are in charge.

When elect folks who literally kill each other over political control and never offer FUTURE elections, that's a lot more lot a coup.

Gaza is opened up

No it wasn't.

Hamas stopped suicide bombing and offered Israel a long term truce.

I don't understand your bad mouth about Hamas. You aren't making any sense.