The God Vacuum: America and the barbarian hordes

[Gunny]

Okay. So the Jew was a neighbor.

Try again. You tried to represent bearing false witness as lying. Bearing false witness AGAINST your neighbor would not apply to your hypothetical minus the homework. Your hypothetical was a person lying to PROTECT, not AGAINST, his neighbor.

 

[Gunny]

How bright must the Big Bang have been? It seems that the light was created before other things... If you take that into account. Then the things separated. Then the stars were set in the firmament... Hmmm... It actually sounds like the events of the Big Bang to me. The Earth was without form and void... Until it settled how formed was the Earth? So forth. I am not "ducking and dodging", I am not a Christian or a Jew, this isn't "sacred" to me, I don't need to find excuses. It just seems to fit...

I hear you. The "Big Bang" is based on the unscientific principle of matter being created from nothing. How can "nothing" create something?

And Matt accuses anyone who doesn't buy off on his comments of "ducking and dodging."

 

[Avatar4321]

How does one verify "the truth" about a divine being which, by its very nature, is unavailable to human perception or even comprehension? There is no means to verify this "truth" independently, objectively and repeatably. If you can do this, you might make a believer of me.

It doesnt matter whether we presented you with such evidence. youve already decided it doesnt exist and would make any excuse you could to ignore it.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think neither... I just find it interesting that it follows the story so well, in allegorical terms of course. It seems that the early man who wrote it knew more about what happened than could logically be explained. Primordial memory perhaps?

As I said, I am not a Christian or a Jew so I have no real dog in this fight. It interests me.

Well its pretty easy to explain how the author knows so much. He saw it happen.

I agree it is interesting. I find far more in common with the account in creation and scientific fact then some of the detracters find. As for evolution itself, it hardly disproves there is a God. which is why i think this age old debate is stupid. the fact is we have limited accounts and they seem to correspond nicely to what we have found scientifically. There are some discrepencies to be sure, but as long as we live there will always be more evidence to find. I have no doubt that as we learn more science and religion will be on the same wavelength. after all they are both searching for one thing: Truth.

 

[Avatar4321]

Try again. You tried to represent bearing false witness as lying. Bearing false witness AGAINST your neighbor would not apply to your hypothetical minus the homework. Your hypothetical was a person lying to PROTECT, not AGAINST, his neighbor.

Interesting point. I dont think i ever thought of that aspect.

Regardless, i think it encompasses more than just lying against ones neighbors. i think it basically encompasses gossip and slander.

 

[Bullypulpit]

It doesnt matter whether we presented you with such evidence. youve already decided it doesnt exist and would make any excuse you could to ignore it.

I think, more likely, you've no evidence to present. As I said, provide objective, independent and repeatably verifiable evidence, and you might make a believer of me. My mind is open to new evidence, can you say the same?

 

[Bullypulpit]

I hear you. The "Big Bang" is based on the unscientific principle of matter being created from nothing. How can "nothing" create something?

And Matt accuses anyone who doesn't buy off on his comments of "ducking and dodging."

I would suggest you review the theory. Matter was created as the energy from the Big Bang cooled to the point that atomic nuclei could actually form without being torn apart in the next instant.

 

[Eightball]

I think, more likely, you've no evidence to present. As I said, provide objective, independent and repeatably verifiable evidence, and you might make a believer of me. My mind is open to new evidence, can you say the same?

Why aren't the many N.T. writers; John, Luke, Matthew, Mark, Paul, Jude, James.....and possibly Apollos.......not viable or valid as eye witnesses or recorders of what they saw and heard?

What evidences must they provide in addition to their very explicit testimonies of personal observations of acts, and spoken word by Jesus and others that must be provided that would give validity?

How is it that several hundret eye witnesses actually observed Christ's ascension. This was attested-to by Paul that even several years after Jesus's departing earth that many folks still were alive that had eye-witnessed Christ ascending into the clouds.

Why is it that some, just don't want to beleive it? They can put their faith into sitting in a space shuttle cockpit and believe that they will make it home safe, but when it comes to trusting the very one that authored all matter and existence itself........they are untrusting.....and want evidences.

It's healthy to doubt.......but it's unhealthy to doubt, and doubt, and doubt........because one is afraid, to commit to something that will "unshelf" themselves from the "helm" of their lives.........That's scarey......., but what's the alternative? Living on into the abyss of self-knowledge......based only on touch, smell, tast, and hearing?

Remember that the bible is not one book, but a compilation of books......so we aren't looking at one human author either. The authors comprise both lay people and those that were of the heirarchy of the Jewish religion of Jesus's day. Paul actually was educated in the school of Gamamiel.....

Even the respected, Josephus......who was not a Christian, recorded and validated many things from the N.T..
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However there is one important factor. It's mentioned over and over again.......Believing in God........Believing that Jesus was and is who He is........a matter of choice, once the evidences have been presented. Many in here that deny the existence of God.....do not do it out of evidences to the contrary, but out of "choice" as an act of human free-will.

Frank Sinatra's famous song, "I Did It My Way" encapsulates the-God denying person's mantra......whether they be liberal or conservative in political bent........

People use all kinds of excuses.......such as: church goes are hypocrites........well, that's true to some extent......yet they are hypocrites willing to admit the malady and seek a higher knowledge and strength to assuage this condition.

Some have had experiences with over zealous bible folks who were "pushy" and used the old, "You're going to Hell" technique of evangelism.

Never the less......these are all escapes, and excuses. Even hiding in ones intellect......is evidence of human pride.

Now, I know these comments don't digest easily, or at all to many, but, God has never forced a single human being into conversion.........Man has via the Crusades.....the inquisition......etc.........but those forced moments didn't result in conversions.......just scared folks that said, "yes" or "I believe" out of fear and intimidation.

There's a book written called, "Evidence Demands A Verdict".......written by all means by a Christian. It systematically lays out a plausible, logical argument for the validity of the Biblical scripture..........Most notably Christs's part in it. It has been a "best seller" for years. I wonder why?

That's because the most secure non-Christian in the world is only fooling themselves......as they are just one little mis-hap away from facing an uncertain eternity. And God says in the bible that there's an eternity for everyone......and one isn't pleasant, as it is a very lonely, self-chosen one......for some.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

How does one verify "the truth" about a divine being which, by its very nature, is unavailable to human perception or even comprehension? There is no means to verify this "truth" independently, objectively and repeatably. If you can do this, you might make a believer of me.

Exactly. So it's equally impossible to prove he doesn't exist.

 

[Bonnie]

I think it's much easier to assume that someone must feel badly about not believing than to consider a non-believer might be able to live a normal, happy, contented, moral life.

Actually It's very easy for me to believe someone can not be religious and live a normal, happy, contented, moral life, I've know a few.

What I don't believe is someone who is not religious, and will often ridicule religious people is neither tolerant nor capable of living a normal, happy, contented, moral life

 

[theHawk]

There is an entire living proof of evolutionary theory located off the coast of Chile, called the Galapagos Islands. These islands are populated by examples of mutation giving species new and beneficial traits.

Then you should easily be able to provide one example.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think, more likely, you've no evidence to present. As I said, provide objective, independent and repeatably verifiable evidence, and you might make a believer of me. My mind is open to new evidence, can you say the same?

We have all things to witness that there is a God. The witnesses of the Apostles and Propehts who were eye witnesses to the truth. We have all of nature in all its order testifying that their is a living God. We have the miracles that have been and are preformed everyday. We have the fruits of those who lives the Gospel to testify of its goodness.

Most important we have the witness from the Holy Spirit. Its rather hard to argue that God doesnt exist when He himself tells you otherwise. But you refuse to even open yourself to the possibility. Hence why you never see it.

To say there is no evidence is to outright lie. You are just ignoring it because it doesnt comport to your already preconcieved notions. Your mind isnt open to it. youve demonstrated it very clearly. So stop pretending to be otherwise. We dont need your condescension.

As for whether Im open to the possibility of the opposite. Im about as open to it as I am open to the idea that the earth is really flat. No one can have an experience with the Almighty and conclude that He isnt real. I know for a fact that He is real because Ive learned for myself and asked Him. And everyone who does humble themselves and seek Him out can learn the same thing. You can test the word and you will come up with the same results everytime. Those who say they cant are the ones who refuse to test it.

The only real question for those who have found out for themselves is whether they are willing to do what the Lord says or will they fight Him.

 

[Dr Grump]

What makes you so special? How come he opened him/herself to you and not Bully or I???

 

[Eightball]

What makes you so special? How come he opened him/herself to you and not Bully or I???

Your God-given free-will my friend.

 

[Dr Grump]

Your God-given free-will my friend.

Ah, so it is all about faith...

 

[Eightball]

Ah, so it is all about faith...

Uh......yeah......and faith is based on evidences.......so.............

 

[Bullypulpit]

Then you should easily be able to provide one example.

Marine iguanas. But you'll find unique adaptive changes to the flora and fauna in any isolated ecosystem.

 

[Bullypulpit]

We have all things to witness that there is a God. The witnesses of the Apostles and Propehts who were eye witnesses to the truth. We have all of nature in all its order testifying that their is a living God. We have the miracles that have been and are preformed everyday. We have the fruits of those who lives the Gospel to testify of its goodness.

Most important we have the witness from the Holy Spirit. Its rather hard to argue that God doesnt exist when He himself tells you otherwise. But you refuse to even open yourself to the possibility. Hence why you never see it.

To say there is no evidence is to outright lie. You are just ignoring it because it doesnt comport to your already preconcieved notions. Your mind isnt open to it. youve demonstrated it very clearly. So stop pretending to be otherwise. We dont need your condescension.

As for whether Im open to the possibility of the opposite. Im about as open to it as I am open to the idea that the earth is really flat. No one can have an experience with the Almighty and conclude that He isnt real. I know for a fact that He is real because Ive learned for myself and asked Him. And everyone who does humble themselves and seek Him out can learn the same thing. You can test the word and you will come up with the same results everytime. Those who say they cant are the ones who refuse to test it.

The only real question for those who have found out for themselves is whether they are willing to do what the Lord says or will they fight Him.

It is anecdotal evidence describing the subjective experiences of individuals, which cannot be independently verified by an objective outside observer. In a court of law, it would be considered hearsay, and inadmissable.

If what you have found gives you meaning, comfort and solace in life that is well and good. But not all of us need religious experience to provide the meaning to our lives. Our morals are rooted in the consequences of our actions upon those around us here and now. Our reward for our moral behaviour comes in the form of the respect and trust of those around us. There is no need to wait for a reward in some mythical, metaphysical after-life.

That does not mean that my way is better than yours, or vice-versa. We are simply taking different paths towards the same goal...Moral life in a just society.

 

[Annie]

It is anecdotal evidence describing the subjective experiences of individuals, which cannot be independently verified by an objective outside observer. In a court of law, it would be considered hearsay, and inadmissable.

If what you have found gives you meaning, comfort and solace in life that is well and good. But not all of us need religious experience to provide the meaning to our lives. Our morals are rooted in the consequences of our actions upon those around us here and now. Our reward for our moral behaviour comes in the form of the respect and trust of those around us. There is no need to wait for a reward in some mythical, metaphysical after-life.

That does not mean that my way is better than yours, or vice-versa. We are simply taking different paths towards the same goal...Moral life in a just society.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bullypulpit again.

I know you'd be shocked and amazed, but I can respect that. Not agree that you are on the correct path, will do what I can to inspire, but I respect it. For some reason, I figure the path I'm on, may do more to help than if I make jest of you. Go figure.

 

[Dr Grump]

Uh......yeah......and faith is based on evidences.......so.............

Not provable evidences....