The Folly of "Peace Talks" Talk

[P F Tinmore]

They don't have the authority (making their name somewhat ironic).

So, no matter how much Israel wants to negotiate a lasting peace, there's nobody to negotiate with.

Glad you finally see my point.

Well, they could talk to the elected government but they are too chicken to do that.

I assume you mean Hamas. What would be the point of talking to Hamas, an organization which openly denounces peace?

Israeli propaganda. Hamas wants peace as much as anyone else. They just don't agree with Israel's preconditions.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Well, they could talk to the elected government but they are too chicken to do that.

I assume you mean Hamas. What would be the point of talking to Hamas, an organization which openly denounces peace?

Israeli propaganda. Hamas wants peace as much as anyone else. They just don't agree with Israel's preconditions.

If you mean Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State then, yes... they don't agree with Israel's "preconditions."

 

[Coyote]

John Kerry is the latest to engage in the folly of trying to start peace talks between Israel and the "Palestinians."

As usual, the PA is citing "settlement construction" as the justification for its refusal to come to the table.

As usual, the cart is preceding the horse.

I disagree - I think settlement construction is integral to the issue if there is to be a two state solution and accepting it as a pre-condition is no different than Israel's previous pre-conditions (ending violence) were.

The first step in this process must be the establishment of unified "Palestinian" leadership. What good is a peace treaty with the PA if the population of Gaza, ruled by Hamas (which has recently stated it will not recoginize a Jewish State), refuses to abide by it?

I actually agree - you can't negotiate with an entity that does not represent a majority of the people.

However - the election that brought Hamas to power was not as much an overwelming support of Hamas' views as much as a statement against the corruption inherent in the ruling party, and an inability of them to effectively govern. Hamas was smart - it's political wing engaged in considerable works of public charity etc to "win the hearts" and the election not to disimilar from the MB in Egypt. Elections in the Palestinian territories aren't like elections in the US - they can be subject to violence, intimidation, and little political diversity or unity.

Public opinion polls I've seen show that the majority of Palestinians would accept Israel's right to exist and that means the people might not be in line with Hamas' statements.

It's possible that Israel could negotiate with Gaza and the West Bank as seperate entities...not sure about the feasibility of that though.

The second step is that the "Palestinians" must abandon the absurd notion of a "Right of Return" to Israel. Again, what good is a peace treaty if it will simply open the door for the Arabs to destroy Israel through demographics?

Agree - it's not feasible. But I would support a limited right of return for family reunification and some sort of compensation (which would also have to be made to any Israeli's who might end up being displaced).

Finally, the "Palestinians" must abandon the notion that "East Jerusalem" will ever be given to them. Israel is NEVER going to give control of its holiest sites over to the Arabs.

I think it should be an international city....

Once these issues are addressed, matters such as division of land and "settlement" construction can be addressed through negotiation.

The problem is - you want all concessions to be on the Palestinian side prior to negotiations. I think the halting of settlement construction is a reasonable concession along with the Palestinians acknowledging Israel's right to exist and speaking with a unified voice - 2 major things. The rest is negotiable at the table.

But, let's not kid ourselves. The real problem here is that the Arabs want Israel to make all the concessions, while they risk nothing, promise nothing, and deliver nothing in return.

Israel has always demanded pre-conditions prior to negotiation such as cessation of all violence. Why is it different for the Palestinians?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

A cessation of violence is not a precondition, its a prerequisite (see my definitions above).

Also, Israel halted "settlement construction" for 10 months a couple of years ago, and the "Palestinians" refused to come to the table. This suggests that the issue is a red herring.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Israel has a building halt right now too.

 

[Coyote]

A cessation of violence is not a precondition, its a prerequisite (see my definitions above).

Also, Israel halted "settlement construction" for 10 months a couple of years ago, and the "Palestinians" refused to come to the table. This suggests that the issue is a red herring.

Quite possibly but it should still be a condition and it puts the onus on the Palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A cessation of violence is not a precondition, its a prerequisite (see my definitions above).

Also, Israel halted "settlement construction" for 10 months a couple of years ago, and the "Palestinians" refused to come to the table. This suggests that the issue is a red herring.

Indeed. Settlements are violence. The occupation is violence.

It should be a prerequisite to end those first.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

A cessation of violence is not a precondition, its a prerequisite (see my definitions above).

Also, Israel halted "settlement construction" for 10 months a couple of years ago, and the "Palestinians" refused to come to the table. This suggests that the issue is a red herring.

Indeed. Settlements are violence. The occupation is violence.

It should be a prerequisite to end those first.

Settlement building is on a freeze now. And of course the "occupation is violence" part of your statement is pretty strange don't you think?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Oh, please. Settlements are not "violence." Stop with the propaganda talking points.

The bottom line is that Israel agreed to suspend construction pending settlement talks before and, if that were truly the impediment, they'd do the same again. Clearly, there are bigger issues that must be addressed (most notably, the "Palestinian" leadership) first.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

There is a new ban on Israeli construction east of the 1949 armistice line, including in eastern Jerusalem, Housing Minister Uri Ariel (Bayit Yehudi) confirmed Tuesday June 18 in an interview with Galei Tzahal (IDF Radio).

So two weeks now of the freeze in place (and of course the Palestinian builders collecting handouts and not wages) so where is the Peace Talks being held or does Israel have to stop the building for months on end like last time which didn't even get talks going.

 

[Coyote]

There is a new ban on Israeli construction east of the 1949 armistice line, including in eastern Jerusalem, Housing Minister Uri Ariel (Bayit Yehudi) confirmed Tuesday June 18 in an interview with Galei Tzahal (IDF Radio).

So two weeks now of the freeze in place (and of course the Palestinian builders collecting handouts and not wages) so where is the Peace Talks being held or does Israel have to stop the building for months on end like last time which didn't even get talks going.

Then it's on the Palestinians to do something

 

[HistoryBefore67]

There is a new ban on Israeli construction east of the 1949 armistice line, including in eastern Jerusalem, Housing Minister Uri Ariel (Bayit Yehudi) confirmed Tuesday June 18 in an interview with Galei Tzahal (IDF Radio).

So two weeks now of the freeze in place (and of course the Palestinian builders collecting handouts and not wages) so where is the Peace Talks being held or does Israel have to stop the building for months on end like last time which didn't even get talks going.

Then it's on the Palestinians to do something

That's been the case since Arafat.

However, while it waits, Israel does not wallow in martyrdom. Instead, it builds its own nation to provide security and prosperity for its people. Maybe the "Palestinians" should do the same.

 

[toastman]

Well, they could talk to the elected government but they are too chicken to do that.

I assume you mean Hamas. What would be the point of talking to Hamas, an organization which openly denounces peace?

Israeli propaganda. Hamas wants peace as much as anyone else. They just don't agree with Israel's preconditions.

Whenever you don't agree with something, you call it Israeli propaganda.

Answer this, what offer has Hamas put on the table for peace and when have they said they want peace???

 

[toastman]

You're the one smokescreening.
Where are the agreements that gave Palestine borders?
I've asked you this question plenty of times, but you keep ducking it.

I have already answered that. Pay attention.

The border with Egypt was agreed between the Ottoman Empire and Egypt in 1906. That international border was honored after the fall of the empire.

The borders with Lebanon and Syria were defined by post WWI treaties.

The final border was defined between Palestine and Transjordan in 1922.

Some say that these were the borders of mandated Palestine and not Palestine itself but the mandate had no land or borders of its own. The 1949 armistice agreements, that Israel signed, showed that the land was still Palestine and that Palestine's international borders were still there the year following the end of the mandate.

The borders from the Ottoman empire are still in effect???

Please show me a recent document that says that.
Everything you saying is a a lie.
Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan are internationally recognized, and you have yet to show me that they are null. All you can do is provide me with the armistice agreements. I already told you that the borders changed after the 1948 and 1967 war, weather you like to believe it or not..

 

[P F Tinmore]

You're the one smokescreening.
Where are the agreements that gave Palestine borders?
I've asked you this question plenty of times, but you keep ducking it.

I have already answered that. Pay attention.

The border with Egypt was agreed between the Ottoman Empire and Egypt in 1906. That international border was honored after the fall of the empire.

The borders with Lebanon and Syria were defined by post WWI treaties.

The final border was defined between Palestine and Transjordan in 1922.

Some say that these were the borders of mandated Palestine and not Palestine itself but the mandate had no land or borders of its own. The 1949 armistice agreements, that Israel signed, showed that the land was still Palestine and that Palestine's international borders were still there the year following the end of the mandate.

The borders from the Ottoman empire are still in effect???

Please show me a recent document that says that.
Everything you saying is a a lie.
Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan are internationally recognized, and you have yet to show me that they are null. All you can do is provide me with the armistice agreements. I already told you that the borders changed after the 1948 and 1967 war, weather you like to believe it or not..

Everything you saying is a a lie.

Do you have anything to back up your allegation?

 

[toastman]

I have already answered that. Pay attention.

The border with Egypt was agreed between the Ottoman Empire and Egypt in 1906. That international border was honored after the fall of the empire.

The borders with Lebanon and Syria were defined by post WWI treaties.

The final border was defined between Palestine and Transjordan in 1922.

Some say that these were the borders of mandated Palestine and not Palestine itself but the mandate had no land or borders of its own. The 1949 armistice agreements, that Israel signed, showed that the land was still Palestine and that Palestine's international borders were still there the year following the end of the mandate.

The borders from the Ottoman empire are still in effect???

Please show me a recent document that says that.
Everything you saying is a a lie.
Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan are internationally recognized, and you have yet to show me that they are null. All you can do is provide me with the armistice agreements. I already told you that the borders changed after the 1948 and 1967 war, weather you like to believe it or not..

Everything you saying is a a lie.

Do you have anything to back up your allegation?

You STILL didn't answer the question in my post. Are you scared to admit you were wrong ? Don't be, I've owned up to my mistakes here .

 

[P F Tinmore]

The borders from the Ottoman empire are still in effect???

Please show me a recent document that says that.
Everything you saying is a a lie.
Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan are internationally recognized, and you have yet to show me that they are null. All you can do is provide me with the armistice agreements. I already told you that the borders changed after the 1948 and 1967 war, weather you like to believe it or not..

Everything you saying is a a lie.

Do you have anything to back up your allegation?

You STILL didn't answer the question in my post. Are you scared to admit you were wrong ? Don't be, I've owned up to my mistakes here .

Which question did I not answer?

 

[toastman]

I would like to see some recent documents or articles that suggest that the borders of Palestine are that of the 1949 armistice agreements. That's a very bold claim, so if it's true, surely you can find an article or document that suggests it

 

[P F Tinmore]

I would like to see some recent documents or articles that suggest that the borders of Palestine are that of the 1949 armistice agreements. That's a very bold claim, so if it's true, surely you can find an article or document that suggests it

It is difficult to find documents on things that do not happen, Things that do happen are documented. I have been asking for years for documents showing Israel legally acquiring land. So far I have nothing. If Israel has not acquired land that land would be considered occupied.

Here are some articles that suggest it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+++...08,d.dmQ&fp=15ad12e9eee4b920&biw=1280&bih=851

 

[toastman]

You still have yet to provide with me with an article or document that says "Israel is inside Palestine" or something that suggests that the borders of Israel with Egypt and Jordan are null. The internationally recognized borders. Please show me something that nullifies them, otherwise you statement that "Israel has no borders" is just jibberish (which we all already knew)

Also, where are the agreements of Palestines borders?