The day the Israelis and Palestinians find a peaceful solution to their conflict - should there be such a day - will be a day of joy for virtually all Israelis and their supporters regardless of the terms. On the other side many Palestinians - and most of their supporters - will reject it ... again, regardless of the terms.
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The Diff is Obvious
- Thread starter SAYIT
- Start date
Saigon
Gold Member
Sayit -
How many Palestinians do you know personally?
How many Palestinians have you personally spoken to about this issue?
Or are you simply talking out of bias and ignorance?
How many Palestinians do you know personally?
How many Palestinians have you personally spoken to about this issue?
Or are you simply talking out of bias and ignorance?
Last edited:
Challenger
Gold Member
Here's a fun article about that I thought I'd share.
One-state Israel, 2035: A morning in the land of boiling frogs: Miriam ponders life in Israel 2035, as she sips her rosemary tea in the shelter of her isolated home.
Advertisement
Looks like I might have to copy/paste the article if you haven't got Haaretz premium:
"When Miriam woke up, the sun was already shining over Jerusalem. As she did her morning stretches, she looked out her bedroom window: birds chirped on the barricades separating her neighborhood from the neighboring Arab towns.
Fortunately, it seemed like a calm morning. Good, she had a lot to do today. She’d have to take her youngest to school, taking the long road of course - the shorter route was still blocked due to last week’s riots, and the even-shorter path was closed off years back when the government first declared it was giving up on attempting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and began to unilaterally close off all Jewish residential areas for “security reasons”, severing them from Arab sections.
Riots had become an almost weekly occurrence these days, as some Palestinians (armed mostly with rocks and homemade firearms) still demanded their own country. Others just demanded equal rights.
Back in the days when Jews and Arabs still drove on the same roads, Miriam remembered, coming and going took about half the time. And there was more than a 50% chance her windshield would remain whole until evening. Not so much now.
Sipping her rosemary infusion (coffee was hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo), she thought (as she often did) about the Israel of her young adulthood. “The last days of Zionism”, some called them, back when it seemed like demographics coupled with diplomatic inertia would lead to the end of Israel as it was. In a way, they had.
Unable now to stop the flood of memories, she remembered the Israel of her childhood, circa 2014, when politicians still spoke of a “two-state solution” but warned that time was running out. If Israel doesn’t act, they said, there would only be one state with an Arab majority between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean that couldn’t possibly keep its Jewish character.
How foolish they look now.
At first, It felt liberating to finally drop baggage of useless hope that a Palestinian state could reside peacefully next to Jewish Israel, but then came the hard years of the Third and Fourth Intifadas. How bloody they were. The military regime, the wars, the blockades on every street corner, the “Judaification" of ethnically-mixed areas to prevent “demographic time-bombs”. Arabs were temporarily quarantined, then transferred to designated living areas, separate in everything - schools, roads, stores.
It felt normal at first, like it was always this way. After all, it’s not like she and her Arab neighbors ever sent their children to the same schools. But it really wasn’t the same.
Then came the tough choices, the endless debates over what’s more important: retaining the country’s Jewish identity or remaining democratic? Then the referendums. She remembered the campaigns. “One nation, for one people”, said one popular slogan. Another stated: “Jewish values and democracy are not mutually exclusive”. That one was less popular with the crowds.
But that was all history now. Things had calmed since then, and she hadn’t seen an Arab in months, other then the Palestinian kids from the surrounding area, of course, peering through cracks in the wall protecting the expensive new road built for Jewish use.
She made breakfast. Two pieces of toast, cottage cheese, and tomatoes. Imported groceries were hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo. But maybe that was a good thing - after all, money was tight: she was unemployed ever since she could remember and her husband didn’t make much. Israel’s transition into an autarky was a rough one and the days of “Start-Up Nation” were long gone.
She longed for those days sometimes, when Israel seemed almost like a part of the world.
But enough sulking, she thought. Her oldest would be off to college soon - an Israeli one, of course, since Israeli students were no longer allowed to attend international schools. But that didn’t really matter, since it’s not like he could work abroad anyway. Her family would always remain together, she thought, ever the optimist.
She remembered how her sister and brother-in-law took the children and left for America, and all the people she knew who used their foreign passports and emigrated, leaving behind friends and family. How happy she was that her small family would be spared such heartache!
And as she bit into her toast, a smile spread across her face. Yes, some people, mainly in one newspaper, said that this situation can’t last, won’t last, that the days of Jewish dominance over the land are numbered. But the same people said the same things back in 2014, and here we are, still here, she thought, as if celebrating some hidden victory.
Those naifs in 2014, maybe even her younger self, would probably say this Israel, her Israel, was an isolated, extremist, violent, poor apartheid country on the precipice of inevitable and violent revolution. Nudniks.
In a few hours, she thought, her husband will come home, and the kids will run around the house playing (outside, warned the police, was unsafe at night). Tomorrow will come, and the sun, once again, will shine above the walls and barricades of New Jerusalem.
How nice, she thought, to live in our Jewish state."
One-state Israel, 2035: A morning in the land of boiling frogs: Miriam ponders life in Israel 2035, as she sips her rosemary tea in the shelter of her isolated home.
Advertisement
Looks like I might have to copy/paste the article if you haven't got Haaretz premium:
"When Miriam woke up, the sun was already shining over Jerusalem. As she did her morning stretches, she looked out her bedroom window: birds chirped on the barricades separating her neighborhood from the neighboring Arab towns.
Fortunately, it seemed like a calm morning. Good, she had a lot to do today. She’d have to take her youngest to school, taking the long road of course - the shorter route was still blocked due to last week’s riots, and the even-shorter path was closed off years back when the government first declared it was giving up on attempting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and began to unilaterally close off all Jewish residential areas for “security reasons”, severing them from Arab sections.
Riots had become an almost weekly occurrence these days, as some Palestinians (armed mostly with rocks and homemade firearms) still demanded their own country. Others just demanded equal rights.
Back in the days when Jews and Arabs still drove on the same roads, Miriam remembered, coming and going took about half the time. And there was more than a 50% chance her windshield would remain whole until evening. Not so much now.
Sipping her rosemary infusion (coffee was hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo), she thought (as she often did) about the Israel of her young adulthood. “The last days of Zionism”, some called them, back when it seemed like demographics coupled with diplomatic inertia would lead to the end of Israel as it was. In a way, they had.
Unable now to stop the flood of memories, she remembered the Israel of her childhood, circa 2014, when politicians still spoke of a “two-state solution” but warned that time was running out. If Israel doesn’t act, they said, there would only be one state with an Arab majority between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean that couldn’t possibly keep its Jewish character.
How foolish they look now.
At first, It felt liberating to finally drop baggage of useless hope that a Palestinian state could reside peacefully next to Jewish Israel, but then came the hard years of the Third and Fourth Intifadas. How bloody they were. The military regime, the wars, the blockades on every street corner, the “Judaification" of ethnically-mixed areas to prevent “demographic time-bombs”. Arabs were temporarily quarantined, then transferred to designated living areas, separate in everything - schools, roads, stores.
It felt normal at first, like it was always this way. After all, it’s not like she and her Arab neighbors ever sent their children to the same schools. But it really wasn’t the same.
Then came the tough choices, the endless debates over what’s more important: retaining the country’s Jewish identity or remaining democratic? Then the referendums. She remembered the campaigns. “One nation, for one people”, said one popular slogan. Another stated: “Jewish values and democracy are not mutually exclusive”. That one was less popular with the crowds.
But that was all history now. Things had calmed since then, and she hadn’t seen an Arab in months, other then the Palestinian kids from the surrounding area, of course, peering through cracks in the wall protecting the expensive new road built for Jewish use.
She made breakfast. Two pieces of toast, cottage cheese, and tomatoes. Imported groceries were hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo. But maybe that was a good thing - after all, money was tight: she was unemployed ever since she could remember and her husband didn’t make much. Israel’s transition into an autarky was a rough one and the days of “Start-Up Nation” were long gone.
She longed for those days sometimes, when Israel seemed almost like a part of the world.
But enough sulking, she thought. Her oldest would be off to college soon - an Israeli one, of course, since Israeli students were no longer allowed to attend international schools. But that didn’t really matter, since it’s not like he could work abroad anyway. Her family would always remain together, she thought, ever the optimist.
She remembered how her sister and brother-in-law took the children and left for America, and all the people she knew who used their foreign passports and emigrated, leaving behind friends and family. How happy she was that her small family would be spared such heartache!
And as she bit into her toast, a smile spread across her face. Yes, some people, mainly in one newspaper, said that this situation can’t last, won’t last, that the days of Jewish dominance over the land are numbered. But the same people said the same things back in 2014, and here we are, still here, she thought, as if celebrating some hidden victory.
Those naifs in 2014, maybe even her younger self, would probably say this Israel, her Israel, was an isolated, extremist, violent, poor apartheid country on the precipice of inevitable and violent revolution. Nudniks.
In a few hours, she thought, her husband will come home, and the kids will run around the house playing (outside, warned the police, was unsafe at night). Tomorrow will come, and the sun, once again, will shine above the walls and barricades of New Jerusalem.
How nice, she thought, to live in our Jewish state."
Or, alternatively, talking out of bias, and informed speculation, based upon a half-century and more of Palestinian intransigence and foolhardy decision-making?Sayit -
How many Palestinians do you know personally?
How many Palestinians have you personally spoken to about this issue?
Or are you simply talking out of bias and ignorance?
Its not abput knowing them personally, its about concluding facts.Sayit -
How many Palestinians do you know personally?
How many Palestinians have you personally spoken to about this issue?
Or are you simply talking out of bias and ignorance?
Saigon
Gold Member
Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
Sayit -
How many Palestinians do you know personally?
How many Palestinians have you personally spoken to about this issue?
Or are you simply talking out of bias and ignorance?
So why do they insist on refusing to talk with Israel in regards to peace. When Arafat was offered 98% of Palestine and negotiations regarding the other 2% why did he refuse to talk unless pre-conditions were accepted first
Here's a fun article about that I thought I'd share.
One-state Israel, 2035: A morning in the land of boiling frogs: Miriam ponders life in Israel 2035, as she sips her rosemary tea in the shelter of her isolated home.
Advertisement
Looks like I might have to copy/paste the article if you haven't got Haaretz premium:
"When Miriam woke up, the sun was already shining over Jerusalem. As she did her morning stretches, she looked out her bedroom window: birds chirped on the barricades separating her neighborhood from the neighboring Arab towns.
Fortunately, it seemed like a calm morning. Good, she had a lot to do today. She’d have to take her youngest to school, taking the long road of course - the shorter route was still blocked due to last week’s riots, and the even-shorter path was closed off years back when the government first declared it was giving up on attempting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and began to unilaterally close off all Jewish residential areas for “security reasons”, severing them from Arab sections.
Riots had become an almost weekly occurrence these days, as some Palestinians (armed mostly with rocks and homemade firearms) still demanded their own country. Others just demanded equal rights.
Back in the days when Jews and Arabs still drove on the same roads, Miriam remembered, coming and going took about half the time. And there was more than a 50% chance her windshield would remain whole until evening. Not so much now.
Sipping her rosemary infusion (coffee was hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo), she thought (as she often did) about the Israel of her young adulthood. “The last days of Zionism”, some called them, back when it seemed like demographics coupled with diplomatic inertia would lead to the end of Israel as it was. In a way, they had.
Unable now to stop the flood of memories, she remembered the Israel of her childhood, circa 2014, when politicians still spoke of a “two-state solution” but warned that time was running out. If Israel doesn’t act, they said, there would only be one state with an Arab majority between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean that couldn’t possibly keep its Jewish character.
How foolish they look now.
At first, It felt liberating to finally drop baggage of useless hope that a Palestinian state could reside peacefully next to Jewish Israel, but then came the hard years of the Third and Fourth Intifadas. How bloody they were. The military regime, the wars, the blockades on every street corner, the “Judaification" of ethnically-mixed areas to prevent “demographic time-bombs”. Arabs were temporarily quarantined, then transferred to designated living areas, separate in everything - schools, roads, stores.
It felt normal at first, like it was always this way. After all, it’s not like she and her Arab neighbors ever sent their children to the same schools. But it really wasn’t the same.
Then came the tough choices, the endless debates over what’s more important: retaining the country’s Jewish identity or remaining democratic? Then the referendums. She remembered the campaigns. “One nation, for one people”, said one popular slogan. Another stated: “Jewish values and democracy are not mutually exclusive”. That one was less popular with the crowds.
But that was all history now. Things had calmed since then, and she hadn’t seen an Arab in months, other then the Palestinian kids from the surrounding area, of course, peering through cracks in the wall protecting the expensive new road built for Jewish use.
She made breakfast. Two pieces of toast, cottage cheese, and tomatoes. Imported groceries were hard to come by these days, what with the international embargo. But maybe that was a good thing - after all, money was tight: she was unemployed ever since she could remember and her husband didn’t make much. Israel’s transition into an autarky was a rough one and the days of “Start-Up Nation” were long gone.
She longed for those days sometimes, when Israel seemed almost like a part of the world.
But enough sulking, she thought. Her oldest would be off to college soon - an Israeli one, of course, since Israeli students were no longer allowed to attend international schools. But that didn’t really matter, since it’s not like he could work abroad anyway. Her family would always remain together, she thought, ever the optimist.
She remembered how her sister and brother-in-law took the children and left for America, and all the people she knew who used their foreign passports and emigrated, leaving behind friends and family. How happy she was that her small family would be spared such heartache!
And as she bit into her toast, a smile spread across her face. Yes, some people, mainly in one newspaper, said that this situation can’t last, won’t last, that the days of Jewish dominance over the land are numbered. But the same people said the same things back in 2014, and here we are, still here, she thought, as if celebrating some hidden victory.
Those naifs in 2014, maybe even her younger self, would probably say this Israel, her Israel, was an isolated, extremist, violent, poor apartheid country on the precipice of inevitable and violent revolution. Nudniks.
In a few hours, she thought, her husband will come home, and the kids will run around the house playing (outside, warned the police, was unsafe at night). Tomorrow will come, and the sun, once again, will shine above the walls and barricades of New Jerusalem.
How nice, she thought, to live in our Jewish state."
ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and DRIVEL
Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
Then explain why the Palestinians refuse to talk peace and mutual borders, all they want is their demands meeting and then they will invade Israel and kill all the Jews.
Saigon
Gold Member
Phoenell,
Unfortunately, you are not well informed enough to make any explanation worthwhile.
Unfortunately, you are not well informed enough to make any explanation worthwhile.
So take my word, once we speak about the Palestinians in general theres the Palestinian -Leadership and the Palestinians themselves, many consider them as one and mutually responsible for one another although they are somewhat diverse.Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
Both turned us down countless of times, and with the side cheerleaders it is not about to end anytime soon -
Saigon
Gold Member
Daniyel -
Trying to apply childrens black/white thinking to a situation as complex as this helps no one. Pretending that Israel has been a oaragon of idealistic generosity cruelly rebuffed by heartless Palestinians is so simplistic, so naive and so false that it really doesn't warrant a reply.
Why not attempt a more genuine assesment of events?
Trying to apply childrens black/white thinking to a situation as complex as this helps no one. Pretending that Israel has been a oaragon of idealistic generosity cruelly rebuffed by heartless Palestinians is so simplistic, so naive and so false that it really doesn't warrant a reply.
Why not attempt a more genuine assesment of events?
So, following that logic, if one has not been to Palestine, but is simply reasonably well-read on the subject, such a person possesses no facts, by which to form opinions, and/or has no business forming opinions, because he/she/it has not touched their feet onto that ground?Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
Did I interpret that correctly?
Last edited:
It is as simple as that, unless you can find a better way to analyze and explain the situation.Daniyel -
Trying to apply childrens black/white thinking to a situation as complex as this helps no one. Pretending that Israel has been a oaragon of idealistic generosity cruelly rebuffed by heartless Palestinians is so simplistic, so naive and so false that it really doesn't warrant a reply.
Why not attempt a more genuine assesment of events?
I Doubt you do, and this is the ugly truth, name ONE thing the Palestinians(or its Leadership) ever did for Israel, maybe one time they've compromised? Maybe one time they didn't turn us down?
- Thread starter
- #15
Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
I have been to Israel and Lebanon numerous times but I do indeed get most of my facts from various Internet news sources.
Does that mean I have no facts?
- Thread starter
- #16
Phoenell,
Unfortunately, you are not well informed enough to make any explanation worthwhile.
What a pompous fukin' jackass!
- Thread starter
- #17
Daniyel -
Trying to apply childrens black/white thinking to a situation as complex as this helps no one. Pretending that Israel has been a oaragon of idealistic generosity cruelly rebuffed by heartless Palestinians is so simplistic, so naive and so false that it really doesn't warrant a reply.
Why not attempt a more genuine assesment of events?
Why not get down off your high horse, Princess?
Saigon
Gold Member
Why not get down off your high horse, Princess?
Because I don't believe that you are able to debate at a level which doesn't involve sand pits and plastic buckets.
If you post something honest, coherent and on topic, I'll respond to it.
Saigon
Gold Member
So, following that logic, if one has not been to Palestine, but is simply reasonably well-read on the subject, such a person possesses no facts, by which to form opinions, and/or has no business forming opinions, because he/she/it has not touched their feet onto that ground?Daniyel -
It is about facts, and one obvious fact is that a person who has never been to Palestine and never met a Palestinian does not have any.
Did I interpret that correctly?
No, that isn't what I said.
Anyone can be reasonbly well informed on this topic or any other; either by studying history, by spending time in the region, or just by spending enough time with people from the region and taking enough of an interest that one actually picks up a few facts. And reading a lot of very good, objective books, of course. I have met one or two people who really had a good understanding of the conflict without having visited the region - just not terribly many.
It just depends on how one wants to spend time on the forum - from my point of view if I read 20 posts by a poster and see massive errors of facts or outright lies in each of them, I no longer see the point in pretending we can have a serious discussion.
But I generally enjoy your posts, Kondor!!!
- Thread starter
- #20
Why not get down off your high horse, Princess?
Because I don't believe that you are able to debate at a level which doesn't involve sand pits and plastic buckets.
If you post something honest, coherent and on topic, I'll respond to it.
Yet not one of your responses to this thread has been on topic but rather personal insults wrapped in pomposity.
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