The case for price gouging

[Quantum Windbag]

Would you apply this to medical costs in the event of a biological terror attack?

If there were a biological terror attack money would be worthless.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Imagine a world where we actually had a free market and people could get what they need.



Gas lines in New Jersey: The state needs more price gouging.

Perhaps a good place to start would be if we stopped defining "price gouging" as "charging more for something than I personally want to pay". God, I get so tired of the spoiled little babies in adult bodies who spend their whole lives whining that someone should make the world magically perfect and eternally convenient for them.

then why don't you stop?

Your brilliant and utterly apropos-of-nothing "I'm rubber and you're glue" response goes a long way toward identifying yourself as the sort of spoiled, ignorant child-person I was talking about.

Not that we needed the clarification, but your effort is appreciated. Now run along and play.

 

[uscitizen]

If you don't want to buy gas from them...DON'T! If too many people are too chickenshit to buy from them, they won't come.



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whether or not i buy from them has no effect on how safe they are.

duh

You people have no clue how the free market works. If enough people felt gypsy gas sellers were too unsafe, and did not buy from them, the sellers would not be able to succeed. So gypsy sellers would have to make their operations safe enough for people to feel comfortable buying gas from them.


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and exactly how many would have to be harmed or killed before it was determined they were unsafe?

We have already been down this road with the regular gas retail industry, why try it again?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The reason these laws exist is because after a disaster, regardless of size, consumers are stuck with enormous costs connected to survival and rebuilding, plus the loss of income from work. They can't afford to pay $7 per gallon (yeah, it's $7, not $6) for gas.

Anyone that takes advantage of someone that's suffering, that may even have lost a family member, deserves to die alone in the rain in a dark alley.

That's why it's called a "disaster", honey: because it sucks.

There's no "taking advantage of" involved in adjusting prices to reflect the scarcity caused by a disaster. The only "taking advantage of" happening here is the poor, downtrodden little "victims" who "can't afford more expensive gas", and so have used the unscrupulous politicians who pander to them to legally rob the people selling gasoline.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, people. I'm going to let Thomas Sowell explain the realities of "price gouging" to you. Some of you are too piss-stupid to understand what he's going to say, and some of you are so in love with being piss-stupid that you won't even bother to try to read it, but some of you might actually pull your heads out of your colons and learn something, so here goes.

This was written in 2004, just for reference.

In the wake of the hurricanes in Florida, the state's attorney general has received thousands of complaints of "price gouging" by stores, hotels, and others charging far higher prices than usual during this emergency.


"Price gouging" is one of those emotionally powerful but economically meaningless expressions that most economists pay no attention to, because it seems too confused to bother with. But a distinguished economist named Joseph Schumpeter once pointed out that it is a mistake to dismiss some ideas as too silly to discuss, because that only allows fallacies to flourish — and their consequences can be very serious.


Charges of "price gouging" usually arise when prices are significantly higher than what people have been used to. Florida's laws in fact make it illegal to charge much more during an emergency than the average price over some previous 30-day period.


This raises questions that go to the heart of economics: What are prices for? What role do they play in the economy?


Prices are not just arbitrary numbers plucked out of the air. Nor are the price levels that you happen to be used to any more special or "fair" than other prices that are higher or lower.


What do prices do? They not only allow sellers to recover their costs, they force buyers to restrict how much they demand. More generally, prices cause goods and the resources that produce goods to flow in one direction through the economy rather than in a different direction.


How do "price gouging" and laws against it fit into this?

When either supply or demand changes, prices change. When the law prevents this, as with Florida's anti-price-gouging laws, that reduces the flow of resources to where they would be most in demand. At the same time, price control reduces the need for the consumer to limit his demands on existing goods and resources.


None of this is peculiar to Florida. For centuries, in countries around the world, laws limiting how high prices are allowed to go has led to consumers demanding more than was being supplied, while suppliers supplied less. Thus rent control has consistently led to housing shortages and price controls on food have led to hunger and even starvation.


Among the complaints in Florida is that hotels have raised their prices. One hotel whose rooms normally cost $40 a night now charged $109 a night and another hotel whose rooms likewise normally cost $40 a night now charged $160 a night.


Those who are long on indignation and short on economics may say that these hotels were now "charging all that the traffic will bear." But they were probably charging all that the traffic would bear when such hotels were charging $40 a night.


The real question is: Why will the traffic bear more now? Obviously because supply and demand have both changed. Since both homes and hotels have been damaged or destroyed by the hurricanes, there are now more people seeking more rooms from fewer hotels.


What if prices were frozen where they were before all this happened?


Those who got to the hotel first would fill up the rooms and those who got there later would be out of luck — and perhaps out of doors or out of the community. At higher prices, a family that might have rented one room for the parents and another for the children will now double up in just one room because of the "exorbitant" prices. That leaves another room for someone else.


Someone whose home was damaged, but not destroyed, may decide to stay home and make do in less than ideal conditions, rather than pay the higher prices at the local hotel. That too will leave another room for someone whose home was damaged worse or destroyed.


In short, the new prices make as much economic sense under the new conditions as the old prices made under the old conditions.


It is essentially the same story when stores are selling ice, plywood, gasoline, or other things for prices that reflect today's supply and demand, rather than yesterday's supply and demand. Price controls will not cause new supplies to be rushed in nearly as fast as higher prices will.


None of this is rocket science. But Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "we need education in the obvious more than investigation of the obscure."

I have helpfully bolded the most relevant parts for you, so that the most liberal amongst us will not have to strain their limited brain cells trying to figure out what the point is. Consider this my good deed for the week.

Try to learn something from this, because listening to you ignoramuses shit via your mouths is really trying my patience.

 

[uscitizen]

Taxes work the same way as prices. whatever the market will bear.

 

[Plasmaball]

The reason these laws exist is because after a disaster, regardless of size, consumers are stuck with enormous costs connected to survival and rebuilding, plus the loss of income from work. They can't afford to pay $7 per gallon (yeah, it's $7, not $6) for gas.

Anyone that takes advantage of someone that's suffering, that may even have lost a family member, deserves to die alone in the rain in a dark alley.

That's why it's called a "disaster", honey: because it sucks.

There's no "taking advantage of" involved in adjusting prices to reflect the scarcity caused by a disaster. The only "taking advantage of" happening here is the poor, downtrodden little "victims" who "can't afford more expensive gas", and so have used the unscrupulous politicians who pander to them to legally rob the people selling gasoline.

i hope you loose everything and have to beg on the streets...Then we will see how fast your tune changes.

 

[Plasmaball]

So option 1 for you, then.

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no i said option 3. Law and order. I see you are one of those slimy people who are willing to take advantage of people in need.

I see you're one of those slimy people who thinks prices are pulled randomly out of people's asses, and education and intelligence are evil.

But then, I've seen that about you before.

i've seen you are a racist twat, and i understand your post is retarded like normal.

 

[bripat9643]

I wanno know why the gas companies price gouged me .40/gal for the storm?
Was 3.09 went to 3.49 overnight with the storm.
I get no oil products from the NE.

The price of gas went down here. I guess the local gas stations in your area know their customers are stupid.

 

[bripat9643]

Ok this isnt a free market problem.....

I know, it is a government regulation problem. In a free market there would be gas in New Jersey.

no, not really, but keep trying.

Yes, really. For instance, if the price of gas went to $10/gal, the gas station owners could all afford to go buy a generator. Problem solved.

 

[Plasmaball]

Have you asked yourself why they don't have generators? Or do you just assume you know the answer?

money and laziness?

In other words, no. You didn't ask, you don't know, and you don't care to know. Facts and research just mess up your worldview.

nobody asked. It was just a random question asking peoples opinions. Stop being a twat.

 

[Plasmaball]

You say "law and order" to explain why you don't like the idea of someone buying gas from a gypsy seller. You clearly are using circular logic. You don't like it because it is illegal.

If it was legal, you would be in favor it, right? Because it is legal. Law and order, and all that good stuff.

So you are opposed to the illegal selling of gas because it is illegal!

Circular logic. QED.

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Price gouging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the United States, laws against price gouging have been held constitutional[3] as a valid exercise of the police power to preserve order during an emergency, and may be combined with anti-hoarding measures. Exceptions are prescribed for price increases that can be justified in terms of increased cost of supply, transportation or storage. Statutes generally give wide discretion not to prosecute: in 2004, Florida determined that one-third of complaints were unfounded, and a large fraction of the remainder were handled by consent decrees, rather than prosecution. Proponents of laws against price gouging assert that it can create an unrealistic psychological demand that can drive a non-replenishable item into extinction.[4] As of 2008, thirty-four states in the United States have enacted laws against price-gouging. Price-gouging is often defined in terms of three critieria listed below:[5]
Period of Emergency: The majority of laws apply only to price shifts during a time of disaster.
Necessary items: Most laws apply exclusively to items which are essential to survival.
Price ceilings: Laws limit the maximum price that can be charged for given goods.
A prevalent concern surrounding price gouging is that it exploits consumers. Supporters of anti price gouging laws argue that it is morally wrong for sellers to take advantage of buyer’s vulnerability and increased demand. Buyers are not coerced to take part in this exchange and they voluntarily agree to pay the seller’s asking price. In addition to these mandated laws, many businesses avoid increasing prices after a disaster in order to avoid consumer backlash and stigma.

sums that up.

Your argument against price gouging is that it is illegal, and you somehow think that settles it?

yes

 

[Cecilie1200]

apparently, the same way everyone else is






frequently

That is how commerce works. Price discovery. You provide a product and I decide how much I am willing to pay for it.

When a bunch of people get hysterical months before a new game station comes out, and so the maker of that product jacks the price up, is that "taking advantage" of people? When the demand drops and you find the same toy in the bargain bin a year later, was the maker gouging their customers when it was a higher price?

No.

That's market forces at work. It's a beautiful thing.


.

^

not an xbox

keep swinging

Sorry, Sparkles, but economics doesn't work any different just because the item being priced is a new house after your old one burned down. Lots of people want something and there aren't very many of the item, it costs more. There are lots of that item and not many people want it, it costs less.

This is not rocket science . . . which is a good thing, since you twerps are hardly rocket scientists.

 

[Mr. H.]

This message brought to you by the petroleum industry, proudly gouging and fixing for a hundred years.

Would you elaborate on this?

Our family has been involved in the petroleum industry for 90 of those 100 years and I consider that to be a seriously irresponsible allegation.

 

[bripat9643]

whether or not i buy from them has no effect on how safe they are.

duh

You people have no clue how the free market works. If enough people felt gypsy gas sellers were too unsafe, and did not buy from them, the sellers would not be able to succeed. So gypsy sellers would have to make their operations safe enough for people to feel comfortable buying gas from them.


.

and exactly how many would have to be harmed or killed before it was determined they were unsafe?

We have already been down this road with the regular gas retail industry, why try it again?

What's the consequence of buying "unsafe" gypsy gas, your fuel system needs to be cleaned out?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This message brought to you by the petroleum industry, proudly gouging and fixing for a hundred years.

Would you elaborate on this?

Our family has been involved in the petroleum industry for 90 of those 100 years and I consider that to be a seriously irresponsible allegation.

Not to mention I want my check.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Gypsy gas stations?

LMAO.
SDo many potentioal problems with that concept I just do not know where to start.

Start anyway.

You would have to have economies of scale to succeed. That means the same trucks already in operation. You would not see some guy selling gas from five gallon cans out of the back of his pickup.

.

Umm how many trucks have gas filling nozzles for autos on them and a way of measuring the gas for each sale?

the gas trucks I now of have great big hoses with maybe 3 inch fittings on the end. would fill up a Camry in maybe 3 sec if you could fit the hose to the fitting on the car.

I guess they would be self serve?

You have your head up your ass on this one. You might as well admit it.

My soloution is much simpler for future problems.
Have all gas stations fitted with a universal generator hookup. cost maybe $500 per station and the nat guard could bring in generators or the corporation owing the station. They would not be losing days worth of sales that way.

How many tankers have a way of metering how much gas is pumped out? Err...all of them! How do you think they measure how much they pump into the stations' tanks?! As for the right nozzle...some DO have the "gas pump" type nozzle. Any that do not, it's a simple enough adapter. I'd bet a shop could whip one up on a CNC machine in half an hour.

A backup generator capable of running a gas station will cost MUCH more than $500. (In perspective, a Harbor Freight 6.5kW portable costs more than that!) Probably closer to $10,000, and that is not even figuring in the regular maintenance costs.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Start anyway.

You would have to have economies of scale to succeed. That means the same trucks already in operation. You would not see some guy selling gas from five gallon cans out of the back of his pickup.

.

Umm how many trucks have gas filling nozzles for autos on them and a way of measuring the gas for each sale?

the gas trucks I now of have great big hoses with maybe 3 inch fittings on the end. would fill up a Camry in maybe 3 sec if you could fit the hose to the fitting on the car.

I guess they would be self serve?

You have your head up your ass on this one. You might as well admit it.

Where there's a will, there's a way. If the government allowed gypsy gas, someone would invent a fitting for a truck the next day. I would not be surprised if one already exists.

.

It does...heck, the trucks where I work are fueled straight from a tanker!

 

[Jarlaxle]

The reason these laws exist is because after a disaster, regardless of size, consumers are stuck with enormous costs connected to survival and rebuilding, plus the loss of income from work. They can't afford to pay $7 per gallon (yeah, it's $7, not $6) for gas.

Anyone that takes advantage of someone that's suffering, that may even have lost a family member, deserves to die alone in the rain in a dark alley.

That's why it's called a "disaster", honey: because it sucks.

There's no "taking advantage of" involved in adjusting prices to reflect the scarcity caused by a disaster. The only "taking advantage of" happening here is the poor, downtrodden little "victims" who "can't afford more expensive gas", and so have used the unscrupulous politicians who pander to them to legally rob the people selling gasoline.

i hope you loose everything and have to beg on the streets...Then we will see how fast your tune changes.

You truly are a despicable turd.

 

[Clementine]

I know, it is a government regulation problem. In a free market there would be gas in New Jersey.

huh?
There is gas in NJ. the problem is that that about 80% of the gas stations have tanks of gas but no electricity to pump it.

Tell me how a free market would change that?

Have you asked yourself why they don't have generators? Or do you just assume you know the answer?

Clearly the stations could spend the money on expensive generators, but then they would take a loss because the gas prices are kept low. If they could raise the prices enough to make it worth their while to get the pumps up and running, people could go anywhere for gas and they'd be in and out.