The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[bripat9643]

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods. .

If you grow corn, what stops them from invading your land to get that?

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

I thought liberals were the ones who believe you should be able to marry whomever you want so long as all parties are consenting adults. Are you now saying you don't approve of choice in marraige?

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

You won't find any libertarians who oppose the existence of the military. That view is solely the agenda of liberals, not libertarians.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

It is true that we would abolish about 98% of all laws on the books. That doesn't constitute a "lawless society." There would still be thousands of laws.

 

[JohnA]

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods.

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

Nobody is going to attack us if we leave them the fuck alone , switzerland has no standing army dont see them being attacked .

every action brings a reaction .

the nieybours wont invade your property to steal your drugs if they can grow there own .
do you see people stealing tomato plants ?

 

[JohnA]

Ive been a libertarian for many many years and i dont know any libertarian who believe in NO laws in society that would be anarchy would,nt it ?
we must have laws governing interaction with the rest of society example traffic laws smoking in public buildings , decency in dress ,things that have a effect on other PEOPLE
some regulations regarding commerce such as health , safeguards against fraud , laws against persons murder . stealing rape etc etc regulations are mostly guidelines backed up by penalties .

what most libertarians are against are the laws that restrict private * rights *
IE who you sleep, with who you do business with, what you do with your body stuff like that

yes folks have died thou lack of *guildlines/regulations * folks have died BECUASE of *guildlines / regulations * .

unions have made jobs *better * thou regulations they have also LOST jobs thou regulations
no system is perfect .

the op is just trying to make a case when there isnt one
must be bored out of his mind

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

I read the first page of this thread and have no interest in reading the rest, so if I repeat a point that has already been brought up you'll have to forgive me.

You bring up things that employers might do, such as discriminate or "wrongfully terminate." Both of these come down to property rights. If I'm hiring someone to work with my property, building, supplies, etc..., then why shouldn't I have the right to hire whoever I want for whatever reason I want, and to fire them for whatever reason I want? It's my property. Let's turn this idea around for a minute. Let's say I own a plant, and I hire an African-American to be manager at this plant. Let's say one of the employees under that manager is a racist and quits, should he be forced by the government to stay in that job? Prosecuted for "wrongful quitting?" If we're going to regulate the prejudices of employers shouldn't we regulate the prejudices of employees as well?

You say history proves that markets will not regulate themselves if left alone, but you're wrong. History proves that governments use regulations to benefit their favored businesses and to restrict competition, if they even allow competition in the first place. Are markets perfect? No. The market is comprised of the individual actions of humans, and humans aren't perfect so the market is not going to be perfect. The point that libertarians make is that markets are the most efficient means to rationally allocate scarce resources, which is the point of an economy in the first place, and that any intervention by governments will simply cause a bigger problem than the one they're allegedly trying to fix.

Now, libertarians are not all of the same mind on this issue. We all certainly want less regulation, but, as you can see from some of the responses, some do still believe in some minimal regulation while others, such as myself, favor absolutely none at all.

 

[IndependntLogic]

IL, let's be honest you would rather the government completely control industry AND markets in this country wouldn't you? If not, how far would you go? What qualifies someone to tell ME how to spend MY money that I earned? How is that justified morally? Instead of just whining and bitching about why freedom sucks, how about you offer an alternative and maybe try to win a few converts to your side? Please, give it a shot. Why, exactly, should I trust the government's judgment on my life over my own?

Okay let's be honest. You have absolutely no indication that I want the government to completely control markets and industry. One of the ploys of those with a weak position or who is extreme, is to project the opposite extreme on anyone disagreeing with them. This is exactly what you've just done. When i was in the military, it turned out I had knack for Russian and other languages. So I got to see REAL Socialism first hand. It's horrible and I would never want it for our country.
You also project that I must "hate freedom" because I find a flaw in your political philosophy. I suppose I could have hoped for intellectual feedback and instead you offer this kind of prattle. Seriously, Libertarians are often like little children that way. If you disagree with them, they have nothing to offer, they just throw tantrums. Why not simply discuss or debate the topic? I have more freedoms in this country than any I've lived in. Which is one of the reasons I like America best. So how are you personally so oppressed? No on ever seems able to answer that one.
As far as trusting the government's judgement, I have also lived in countries that had very weak central government.
Here is the reality: The absence of a strong, central government, a power vacuum is formed and it is never left empty. In several African countries, it is filled by warlords. In Mexico, it is the Cartels. In The Ukraine, it is the mafia and so on. The price we pay for the freedoms you claim not to have, is a strong centralized government.

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods.

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

I actually have some Libertarian friends. I agree with them on many things - including that it's ridiculous for pot to be illegal. I agree with them that our foreign policy is a disaster but not to the extent they discuss. I find no reason to insult them and that is not the intent of this thread. I simply mean to discuss the flaw I see in the concept of The Market Will Regulate Itself. or that everything can be solved with lawsuits. Now obviously, some of them are practically religious about it and will attack any dissent from their views like a religious zealot. But hey, there are whackjobs in the Dem, Republican, Liberal and Conservative movements too.

IL, let's be honest you would rather the government completely control industry AND markets in this country wouldn't you? If not, how far would you go? What qualifies someone to tell ME how to spend MY money that I earned? How is that justified morally? Instead of just whining and bitching about why freedom sucks, how about you offer an alternative and maybe try to win a few converts to your side? Please, give it a shot. Why, exactly, should I trust the government's judgment on my life over my own?

And you and other have already alluded to it...these people are afraid of thier own liberty.

Okay, more worthless prattle with no substance. Again, I have more liberty here than I've had in any country I've lived in. But I guess mindless projection is what one uses when they have no points or substance to offer.

It doesn't make any difference. It is an exaggeration. But even if it were true, so what? Industrial accidents happen all the time. It is irrelevant to whatever point you are futilely trying to make.

Knew you'd cower from that one!

Take a guess how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards for clinical trials and reporting?
Yes, the sound you hear would that of you being owned.
And yes, thousands of lives are saved through regulation. Also BILLIONS of dollars. Obviously it doesn't work all the time but there are good regulations. Duh.

Gotta love the "But if it were true that companies kill thousands of people, so what?" thing, btw. Reveals much.

How many people died prior to FDA? SOme, not many. Probably not "thousands." And certainly "thousands" from one company.
So I guess the FDA keeps us safe from bad drugs? Oops, Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How many people have died because FDA did NOT approve life saving drugs because they were too worried about a Thalidomide repeat? Lots.
You've failed to prove your point. Actually you've proved the opposite, because drug companies producing dangerous products that killed the consumer quickly went out of business.

You're wrong. Eli Lilly has produced dozens of harmful drugs that hurt or even killed people. They still exist. Pfizer? Same thing. Amgen? Yup? Then laws (or regulations) were implemented and things got better.

QW got it... the million dollar question for morons like IL IS........

Hmmm. I have not insulted you but you resort to petty insults instead of debate. Your choice.

How does pointing to the fact that we do not have a free market prove a free market won't work?

So then, please provide some examples of free markets that are working. I mean, anything that is good and efficient, will thrive.

 

[Oddball]

Wow. Look at this thread. People Iv'e bashed and been bashed by on other threads suddenly coming together to bash Mr So-Called Independent.
He is the Barack Obama of USMB--everyone thinks he's a loser.

Maybe if you yanked your head out of your ass and knock it off with your stale old "narcolibertarians" meme, you'd finally conclude that we're not so different.

 

[Oddball]

Okay let's be honest. You have absolutely no indication that I want the government to completely control markets and industry. One of the ploys of those with a weak position or who is extreme, is to project the opposite extreme on anyone disagreeing with them.

So very odd that you fail to recognize that proclivity in yourself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

QW got it... the million dollar question for morons like IL IS........

Hmmm. I have not insulted you but you resort to petty insults instead of debate. Your choice.

How does pointing to the fact that we do not have a free market prove a free market won't work?

So then, please provide some examples of free markets that are working. I mean, anything that is good and efficient, will thrive.

I bet you think we can't come up with one, don't you?

http://www.cobdencentre.org/2011/11/europes-underground-economies/

 

[IndependntLogic]

Okay let's be honest. You have absolutely no indication that I want the government to completely control markets and industry. One of the ploys of those with a weak position or who is extreme, is to project the opposite extreme on anyone disagreeing with them.

So very odd that you fail to recognize that proclivity in yourself.

Well then let's discuss that. Am I incorrect in my understanding of the Libertarian theory that the market will correct itself, if left alone?
Have I projected something inaccurate?
Thusfar, several Libertarians have argued that this is their exact belief but I welcome any correction you wish to provide.

 

[Oddball]

This whole thread is based upon the trite old strawman that libertarianism = anarchy.

Dude, you ain't 1/10th as clever as you'd like to believe.

 

[IndependntLogic]

This whole thread is based upon the trite old strawman that libertarianism = anarchy.

Dude, you ain't 1/10th as clever as you'd like to believe.

I have not said that Libertarianism equals anarchy.
I said I disagree with one economic theory that has been shared with me by more than just a few Libertarians. The Market Will Correct Itself. Thusfar, you have offered absolutely nothing on the topic which, based on seeing your other posts, is not surprising.
So hmmm. I invite you to have a civil discussion and even to correct me if my thinking is wrong - and you post nothing of substance and just sling petty insults.

What, is your campaign slogan? Something like:
"Vote Libertarian! We won't explain or claify any of our views but um, errr... you're a butthole!"

Do you see why Libertarians might not be taken very seriously?

 

[Oddball]

Your argument is a very long-winded way of getting to that end.

The entire basis of outright protection rackets like the FDA is a shining example of how the "the market isn't self-correcting" argument turns into a "cure" far worse than the disease.

Your cited examples in this area are completely irrelevant, as the normal market forces have been so horribly skewed and burdened with over-regulation and bureaucracy, that the classical market paradigm doesn't even apply.

As you have been beat over the head with the fact before, and are getting beat with it again...The claim that the free market doesn't work, when it isn't even in play in the first place, is specious on its face.

How many times does this elementary fact need to be explained to you, before you'll get it through your thick fucking head?

 

[midcan5]

Your argument is a very long-winded way of getting to that end.

The entire basis of outright protection rackets like the FDA is a shining example of how the "the market isn't self-correcting" argument turns into a "cure" far worse than the disease.

Your cited examples in this area are completely irrelevant, as the normal market forces have been so horribly skewed and burdened with over-regulation and bureaucracy, that the classical market paradigm doesn't even apply.

As you have been beat over the head with the fact before, and are getting beat with it again...The claim that the free market doesn't work, when it isn't even in play in the first place, is specious on its face.

How many times does this elementary fact need to be explained to you, before you'll get it through your thick fucking head?

Oddball proves my point and the point of everyone who realizes markets are not self correcting magical fairy dust. Just as communists thought community was a panacea for all the ills of humankind, libertarians think markets are the panacea for all ills. Makes thinking simple, that's for sure. All you have to do is blame government and you can sleep easy like a child's dream of the tooth fairy. Is it any wonder libertarians occupy this odd place of irrelevancy as the grown ups do the work.

Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Critiques Of Libertarianism: So You Want To Discuss Libertarianism....
Marxism of the Right | The American Conservative
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/224992-the-big-flaw-in-libertarianism-4.html#post5325278

 

[Mac1958]

.

Seems to me the biggest flaw in today's libertarianism isn't the philosophy -- whether you agree with it or not, it offers thought-provoking ideas that can be considered as part of the mix -- it's the representatives, who buy completely into it and end up looking like wild-eyed zealots who are stuck in a political vacuum.

Add that to the existing zealotry found in the "major" parties and you just end up with noise.

.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

 

[The Rabbi]

How many people died prior to FDA? SOme, not many. Probably not "thousands." And certainly "thousands" from one company.
So I guess the FDA keeps us safe from bad drugs? Oops, Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How many people have died because FDA did NOT approve life saving drugs because they were too worried about a Thalidomide repeat? Lots.
You've failed to prove your point. Actually you've proved the opposite, because drug companies producing dangerous products that killed the consumer quickly went out of business.

You're wrong. Eli Lilly has produced dozens of harmful drugs that hurt or even killed people. They still exist. Pfizer? Same thing. Amgen? Yup? Then laws (or regulations) were implemented and things got better.

.

You've just refuted your own point. The FDA approved those drugs in every case, so regulation didnt help. And "it would have been worse" is unprovable.
Nor does making one mistake mean the company will go out of business, necessarily.
Your reasoning gets weaker and weaker here.

 

[The Rabbi]

Wow. Look at this thread. People Iv'e bashed and been bashed by on other threads suddenly coming together to bash Mr So-Called Independent.
He is the Barack Obama of USMB--everyone thinks he's a loser.

Maybe if you yanked your head out of your ass and knock it off with your stale old "narcolibertarians" meme, you'd finally conclude that we're not so different.

No, because while we agree on about 60% we're polar opposite on the other 40%. And that 40% turns out to be so significant that the 60% doesn't matter. Same reason that Paul is a loser every race he runs.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You got that right. Rick Perry was never really in the race either. That's partially why your opinion is about as useful as a K-Mart "mt. bike" on Whistler.

 

[The Rabbi]

Okay let's be honest. You have absolutely no indication that I want the government to completely control markets and industry. One of the ploys of those with a weak position or who is extreme, is to project the opposite extreme on anyone disagreeing with them.

So very odd that you fail to recognize that proclivity in yourself.

Well then let's discuss that. Am I incorrect in my understanding of the Libertarian theory that the market will correct itself, if left alone?
Have I projected something inaccurate?
Thusfar, several Libertarians have argued that this is their exact belief but I welcome any correction you wish to provide.

First, that's not just narco-libertarian belief, but a conservative one as well. This fact was pointed out but being a slow learner you didnt gt it.
Second, you have yet to disprove the idea. Citing post regulation economies and single incidents doesn't really work.
Look at companies that have gone out of business and ask why. Generally because they didnt do as well as their competitors in serving their market.
You mention the drug companies. Do you have any idea how many people benefit every day from drugs produced? For every person accidentally hurt there are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, helped. That's why they remain in business.

 

[The Rabbi]

You got that right. Rick Perry was never really in the race either. That's partially why your opinion is about as useful as a K-Mart "mt. bike" on Whistler.

So you agree with me Paul is a loser.
You're making progress here.