The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[IndependntLogic]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

THAT is what you complain about Libertarians? You don't care that they believe no Government above County level should have any power? That no criminal laws should exist and that local courts should hear all cases as if they were personal liability claims?

 

[M14 Shooter]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

 

[saveliberty]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

History proves that government will jump in before the process can take place. A strong centralized government is only necessary to control business AND citizens. Not a good trade off.

You hardly seem prepared to debate honestly, if you reread your post.

 

[Misty]

The market will correct itself but sometimes it takes a while and yes people get taken advantage of but we are cavemen after all, we are lucky we are as decent as we are, but I watched many companies evolve into money makers.

That's what it is all about, money, to corporations and to the government.

The control of regulation is all about money too, Pay fines, fees, taxes.

 

[IndependntLogic]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

How could he use current examples when the market is heavily regulated now? One can point to a need for some Government involvement even currently. Housing crash comes to mind as well as banks almost folding.

But the biggest evidence of a need for some Government regulation is going to be BEFORE the Government got involved.

The argument no longer is that the Government should not be involved, but rather to what extent.

As I get the jest of this he takes exception to the clam by Libertarians NO Government involvement is needed and is asking for a debate on that claim.

My personal opinion is it is a waste of time debating with Libertarians because they are fools on the issue.

No sane person can actually argue that no Government involvement is needed in the business world. All one need do is go back in history to when that was true for absolute evidence of a need for some regulation.

As to the specific claim that in all cases the market will correct itself, that does not apply to all the things that business does nor apply to the need for some regulation by the Government.

My problem with the specific poster in this case is that he appears to believe that ONLY the Government can save us from the evil Business people. SO basically one extreme of the issue is asking to debate the other extreme. And we all know how that will turn out.

 

[saveliberty]

Bank customers have been quite successful recently with getting fees eliminated before government could even begin to act. This shows that massive, quick reactions by customers do have a big impact.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

So none of the examples you cited had any government oversight?

It was strictly the market regulating itself?


I think not.

 

[Avorysuds]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

How many of the companies you just listed receive tax payer money? They are no longer in that realm of “privet sector”. In fact you just destroyed Government intervention as the answer.

To answer your question, Unions… Unions are the answer or at least one of the answers. People don’t like the companies so they banded together and demanded better conditions, products, pay, retirement and so on.

Public Unions are entirely different and Unions in general have a course that they will run. At first a Union can be very good, but like any business at some point Unions can be doing more harm than good.

There, you have been schooled.

Bye…

 

[Mr.Nick]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

Capitalism is self-regulating... We don't live under a true capitalist economy - our economy is Keynesian, or a mixed economy.

IMO, I don't believe the United States has really ever practiced true capitalism. Obviously back in the day there was less government intervention but there was still some intervention.

Not to mention, even as a libertarian I do believe in some common sense intervention - like monopoly laws.

Theoretically capitalism is a self-regulating economic model..

 

[PredFan]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it.

Nice, you ask us what our views are then you immediately discount them. I can tell you are willing to listen. Not.

"The Market Will Correct Itself".

I don't know what Libertarians you are talking to, but when I use that statement, I'm talking about thinks like stocks, or bankruptsies, or economic downturns.

They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.

Again, I don't know who YOU are talking to, but this Libertarian knows that customers only respond to price, quality, and service. If a company's bad practices lead to any drop in those three things, then the customers will go elsewhere. Which CAN happen if a company doesn't play nice. For example, it's employees could do shoddy workmanship, or give poor service if the company doesn't treat them right. For you to say it will never happen is ignorant.

Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".

First of all, no intelligent Libertarian is going to tell you that there should be no regulations on industry. I suspect that you are either making the error of using a broad brush or you are a partisan idiot. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

No, it is as far from fact as you can be. The truth is that it does correct companies, just not always.

So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

Um, when have companies been left alone? You have no proof of your statement. history proves nothing of the sort.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

Now, here's where you really will get the ire of any Libertarian up. We don't need a strong centralized government to take care of us. the only thing a strong centralized government will do is control our lives and take away our liberties. maybe YOU like to be baby-sat by the government, I'll take my freedom and the risks that come with it.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

LOL! You insult us in your first paragraph and you last one, then you call for civility? That's rich! well, there's my response. Cheers.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

So none of the examples you cited had any government oversight?

It was strictly the market regulating itself?


I think not.

We have the extreme of wanting all activity regulated asking for a debate with the extreme of NO activity regulated. Neither one is right and neither one can make valid arguments for their point of view.

 

[PredFan]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

History proves that government will jump in before the process can take place. A strong centralized government is only necessary to control business AND citizens. Not a good trade off.

You hardly seem prepared to debate honestly, if you reread your post.

I noticed that as well.

 

[asaratis]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

You must have mistyped. Those are companies, not countries.

I think you have a legitimate issue. However, as was pointed out by RGS, there are more serious issues with lack of a federal government.

 

[Oddball]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric -Quasi monopoly.
Skadden Arps -Bunch of lawyers...Big surprise.
General Electric -Has head so far up the fed's ass they could lick Boiking's tonsils.
Exxon
Ford - Never heard of the Pinto lawsuit that cost them a pretty penny, have you?
GM -Been bailed out numerouus times.
Chrysler -Ditto.
Pfizer -Payola merchants in the protection racket schemes known as the FDA and Medicare D.
Eli Lilly- Ibid.
Kaiser- Ibid.
Blue Cross - Ibid.
Most of the Fortune 100 - Not specific, as asked for.
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

Pretty shit examples of so-called "free market" operators.

 

[PredFan]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't ...[because]... The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.

Prove it. Be sure to use current examples.

Be happy to.
BP
Pacific Gas & Electric
Skadden Arps
General Electric
Exxon
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Pfizer
Eli Lilly
Kaiser
Blue Cross
Most of the Fortune 100
Which of those countries has been found guilty in a court of law, for harming or killing people.
Multiple times.
All of them.
Which did the Magial Market make disappear?
None of them.

I look forward to your fact-filled and civil response.

Thank you for your service, btw.

You realize that all of this happened WITH government regulations right? So how does our huge centralized government stop this shit? It doesn't apparently. It just takes away our liberties.

 

[saveliberty]

OP had a weak argument with many preconditions. Fail.

 

[Avorysuds]

I'm still waiting for a response about the formation Unions from the OP...

You know, in the end it seems people that don't like Libertarians are near 100% clueless about what they think they know about them. Hell, SF still claims Libertarians want nothing but pure anarchy… Are you people for real? Do you really think you sound intelligent and clever?

 

[Mr.Nick]

I'm still waiting for a response about the formation Unions from the OP...

You know, in the end it seems people that don't like Libertarians are near 100% clueless about what they think they know about them. Hell, SF still claims Libertarians want nothing but pure anarchy… Are you people for real? Do you really think you sound intelligent and clever?

They think we're all anarchists...