The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[konradv]

A good resource for those looking to counter libertarian and objectivist arguments.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

 

[Liberty]

A good resource for those looking to counter libertarian and objectivist arguments.

Critiques Of Libertarianism

A link full of smear pieces from those seeking to be slaves. Great argument, buddy. Why do you despise the idea of personal responsibility and freedom to live as you choose? What are you so afraid of?

 

[eflatminor]

The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough.

Well, you have a lot there to comment on but I think the statement above demonstrates a flaw in your criticism of Libertarianism. The only way a company could become big enough to render itself immune to a negative reaction from customers would be through government meddling - regulatory protection against litigious action and new competitors. Stated differently, in a free market, no company could get away with the evils you listed without suffering the consequences from 300 million "regulators" (ie, current and prospective customers). In a free market, no company that screws it's customers will get "big enough" to do evil because customers will simply go elsewhere.

 

[The T]

Knew you'd cower from that one!

Take a guess how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards for clinical trials and reporting? .

Tell us, how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards? One thing we do know is that thalidomide was approved by the FDA. We also know that thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve life-saving drugs. So, every life lost due to lack of regulation you have to offset with the lives lost because of regulation.

How many commercials do we see on a daily basis of past FDA approved drugs that caused things like cancer...and lawyers soliciting for clients?

Approved medical devices? Same thing...

 

[Liberty]

Knew you'd cower from that one!

Take a guess how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards for clinical trials and reporting? .

Tell us, how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards? One thing we do know is that thalidomide was approved by the FDA. We also know that thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve life-saving drugs. So, every life lost due to lack of regulation you have to offset with the lives lost because of regulation.

How many commercials do we see on a daily basis of past FDA approved drugs that caused things like cancer...and lawyers soliciting for clients?

Approved medical devices? Same thing...

Yeah, I am pretty sure organic food is better for you...but you can't transport milk over state lines without a permit. Go figure.

 

[The T]

Bank customers have been quite successful recently with getting fees eliminated before government could even begin to act. This shows that massive, quick reactions by customers do have a big impact.

Shame Government is less responsive to OUR complaints...

 

[The T]

Tell us, how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards? One thing we do know is that thalidomide was approved by the FDA. We also know that thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve life-saving drugs. So, every life lost due to lack of regulation you have to offset with the lives lost because of regulation.

How many commercials do we see on a daily basis of past FDA approved drugs that caused things like cancer...and lawyers soliciting for clients?

Approved medical devices? Same thing...

Yeah, I am pretty sure organic food is better for you...but you can't transport milk over state lines without a permit. Go figure.

Weird, isn't it?

 

[IndependntLogic]

What "thousands of people" are you referring to? How many people has the government killed? Apparently you believe that if even on person dies, then capitalism is a failure. That's a standard that no government could live up to, so why should capitalism be held to it? No human institution could possible achieve perfect results, but if capitalism isn't perfect, then turds like you claim it's a failure.

Um hmmm. Well you're a uh, angry little fellow, aren't you? Not sure how to simplify this enough and doubt it would do any good.
So let's see. The government has killed lots of people! That has nothing to do with the topic.
I am a capitalist. I own a business and employ people. Nothing was discussed about capitalism. There is a difference between Capitalism and Libertarianism. Perhaps you could find a Liberal Elitist to explain it to you. In the meantime, no. I believe that if regulation can prevent thousands of deaths each year, then that is a good thing.
Where did I claim capitalism is a failure? Oh i didn't? Yeah that.
Now. When you hae come out of your hysterics and settled down a bit, perhaps you'd like to discuss whether a reasonable level of regulation is good for the citzenry.

That's a lot of sound and fury that signifies absololutely nothing. You didn't answer a single question I asked. Who are these "thousands of people" you refer to? You reeled off a list of companies you dislike, but you didn't manage to name a single person they supposedly killed.

There is no "reasonable" level of regulation. It's all bad for the citizenry. The tort system is the only thing required to keep corporations in line.

Yes. There is a reasonable level of regulation. You exemply why no one takes Libertarians seriously. That's just foolish.
as far as people being killed by companies, well let me think for 1/4 of a second. Oh yeah.
Take a guess how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards for clinical trials and reporting? That would be millions. Guess how many suffered permanent side-effects before they were required on the labels? Millions.

So I get it. Libertarians don't care if regulation will save the life of your daughter before she dies. All you care about is being able to sue afterward.
Wait. How do you feel about tort reform?
it's going to be hilarious if you claim you're for it!

 

[Liberty]

IL, let's be honest you would rather the government completely control industry AND markets in this country wouldn't you? If not, how far would you go? What qualifies someone to tell ME how to spend MY money that I earned? How is that justified morally? Instead of just whining and bitching about why freedom sucks, how about you offer an alternative and maybe try to win a few converts to your side? Please, give it a shot. Why, exactly, should I trust the government's judgment on my life over my own?

 

[GoneBezerk]

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods.

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

 

[freedombecki]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

IndependentLogic, I spent a long time in the business world on both sides of the employment table--as an employee, and later as a business owner, as an employer.

I worked in a factory when I was a lot younger in the sewing industry. One day I went into the women's bathroom, and the place was a pigsty because it hadn't been cleaned. I wrote a letter to the manager of the business without telling anyone. The next time I went into the ladies' room, it was spotless, and it was spotless thereafter. When I heard the other gals saying how clean the restrooms seemed to be all of a sudden, I just smiled.

Apparently, no one had ever complained about the egregious condition of the facilities, which is why it probably remained filthy for years. Workers need to know management is not the enemy. It's being a wuss that is the enemy. Because then, your fellow employees have to suffer wrongs that are not called to management's attention.

lol!

I'm not a libertarian, but I know and respect many people who call themselves libertarian, attend tea party meetings, and are the best of good American citizens. Many of their POVs are based on their purest love and regard for the Constitution's freedoms. Frankly, that is the most charming and adorable trait an American can have.

 

[Liberty]

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods.

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

...can you cite any credible libertarian source that advocates for any of what you just said? Maybe start with the libertarian platform over at the official libertarian website? Here's a link. Platform | Libertarian Party

 

[The T]

IL, let's be honest you would rather the government completely control industry AND markets in this country wouldn't you? If not, how far would you go? What qualifies someone to tell ME how to spend MY money that I earned? How is that justified morally? Instead of just whining and bitching about why freedom sucks, how about you offer an alternative and maybe try to win a few converts to your side? Please, give it a shot. Why, exactly, should I trust the government's judgment on my life over my own?

And you and other have already alluded to it...these people are afraid of thier own liberty.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Yeah, losertarians have never pushed for legalizing drugs.

Losertarians want the Govt to stay out of every part of their lives, as if they will somehow be happier if they can do crack in their house with no ill effects like being robbed, ruining their own bodies which will require healthcare costs, etc.

Typically one finds a lot of these paranoid type of people living in barracaded homes believing the "Feds" are taking away their rights when in fact the Feds don't know they exist until alerted by the local Sherriff that Billy Bob threatened the local judge.

Losertarians want the Wild Wild West brought back.

If you want to grow drugs on your land, get high then so be it. Of course, this is ignoring the FACT that others will invade that property to steal the drugs then you have gun battles in neighborhoods.

Want to marry 5 wives? Well they're for it. Hell, marry your daughter too.

Military....we don't need a military, nobody is going to attack us is their dumbass mentality. Well, maybe have a small defense force like in Canadian Bacon. Let Russia, Iran and China run other parts of the world, that won't affect us here....that's what they believe.

Pretty much a lawless society where people do what they like, totally ignoring that people in general are greedy and bad people when given the chance.....that is the same flaw the socialists miss, ironic.

...can you cite any credible libertarian source that advocates for any of what you just said? Maybe start with the libertarian platform over at the official libertarian website? Here's a link. Platform | Libertarian Party

 

[Mac1958]

THAT is what you complain about Libertarians? You don't care that they believe no Government above County level should have any power? That no criminal laws should exist and that local courts should hear all cases as if they were personal liability claims?

Source?


.

 

[The Rabbi]

A gross exaggeration? Want to bet I can prove it's not? If I can't prove it, I'll put Rabbi is the Greatest or whatever you want on my signature.
If I can prove it, you put "Obama is the Greatest President in History and Liberals are Obviously the Most intellegent people on Earth!"
Time to Cut & Run junior...

Once you let me know if the wager is on, I'll educate you on what that has to do with the free market.

It doesn't make any difference. It is an exaggeration. But even if it were true, so what? Industrial accidents happen all the time. It is irrelevant to whatever point you are futilely trying to make.

Knew you'd cower from that one!

Take a guess how many people died from bad drugs prior to the FDA setting standards for clinical trials and reporting?
Yes, the sound you hear would that of you being owned.
And yes, thousands of lives are saved through regulation. Also BILLIONS of dollars. Obviously it doesn't work all the time but there are good regulations. Duh.

Gotta love the "But if it were true that companies kill thousands of people, so what?" thing, btw. Reveals much.

How many people died prior to FDA? SOme, not many. Probably not "thousands." And certainly "thousands" from one company.
So I guess the FDA keeps us safe from bad drugs? Oops, Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How many people have died because FDA did NOT approve life saving drugs because they were too worried about a Thalidomide repeat? Lots.
You've failed to prove your point. Actually you've proved the opposite, because drug companies producing dangerous products that killed the consumer quickly went out of business.

 

[Ariux]

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

The free market isn't just consumers of goods, it's also workers. If a company treats employees badly, they'll lose their good employees and go out of business.

In libertarianism, companies are still accountable for harming people.

The trouble with big government advocates, like yourself, is that you're a stupid shithead. You have stupid ideas that you want to force everyone to follow, without allowing people any recourse to the damage and repulsiveness of your ideas.

If a company gets monopolistic, it's not a sign that the free market has failed. It's a sign that the government is interfering with the free market.

 

[The Rabbi]

The trouble with big government advocates, like yourself, is that you're a stupid shithead. Y

Pretty much all anyone needs to know.

 

[francoHFW]

Well, a third of anti malaria drugs are fake, so that's a few million a year. Your ignorance doesn't mean people didn't die. And your ignorance is almost all inclusive, dupe.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There is a theory that seems almost holy to Libertarians and which many posters dodge like hell. So if there are any Libertarians who would like to take a crack at responding directly to a point, I'd like to hear their views. Of course, if they all use the same dodges and analogies I got from another Libertarian, then quit asking why no one takes you guys seriously.
Here it the central economic theory I've heard from Libertarians and why I dispute it:

"The Market Will Correct Itself". They claim if a company is not nice, people won't buy its' products and services, they won't work there and The Magical Market will make the bad ol' company go away! Wrong. It doesn't.
Without government regulation, companies hurt people (e.g. unsafe working conditions, denial of health benefits, toxic dumping, unsafe oil rigs etc...).
They make harmful products (e.g. dangrous drugs, cars that blow up etc...).
They treat employees horribly (e.g. discrimination, wrongful term, etc...).
And no - those companies don't disappear if they are bad because "the Magical Market Corrects All".
The Market does little to correct anything a company does, once it gets big enough. That's just plain fact.
So the biggest flaw I find in Libertarianism is the belief that companies will regulate themselves, if simply left alone. History proves this is not the case.

This is why a strong centralized government and reasonable level of regulation is necessary to the well-being of citizenry.

I would welcome any commentary from Libertarians on this and will not stoop to the petty insults, labeling etc... that the weak use as their only means of debate. However, I will challenge you if your reasoning is flawed! Cheers, FS

Can you explain Apple and its manufacturing polices if the market doesn't work?

Didn't think so.