Test your civil liberties credentials

Discussion in 'Law and Justice System' started by Quantum Windbag, Dec 13, 2010.

  1. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,014
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    This is one of the most straightforward cases I have ever seen.



    Minneapolis Police Arrest Joel Rosenberg On Bogus Gun Charge | Popehat


    The law here is crystal clear.



    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.66


    I have looked around trying to figure out exactly what "Describe Behavior" is, and what you have to do to commit it, but no luck so far.
     
  2. Madeline
    Offline

    Madeline BANNED

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    18,505
    Thanks Received:
    1,624
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Cleveland. Feel mah pain.
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Quantum Windbag, you are being shortsighted. Courtroom violence is a growing problem, small claims courts are not immune, and no one needs a gun inside a courthouse except the law enforcement hired to work there. In many places, law enforcement with other assignments called to testify, etc., are not even allowed to bring their weapons.

    Why do you object to reasonable time and place restrictions on CC weapons for civilians?

     
  3. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,014
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    He has a carry permit, followed the law in the state, notified the sheriff that he was coming and that he had a permit, and was never anywhere near a courtroom. What exactly is your point again?
     
  4. ConHog
    Offline

    ConHog BANNED

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    14,538
    Thanks Received:
    897
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +897
    Well the point COULD be that the LEO simply wasn't aware of the exemption, NO ONE is perfect QW. Also, as a general rule I see no reasonable reason to allow weapons into a courthouse.
     
  5. theDoctorisIn
    Offline

    theDoctorisIn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    30,025
    Thanks Received:
    5,796
    Trophy Points:
    1,140
    Location:
    East, but still West
    Ratings:
    +11,965
    It's hard to know all the facets of everything.

    From what I can see, he's getting fucked with by the police.

    But I don't have much pity for assholes looking for publicity. Just like the woman in the wheelchair who stripped to her underwear at the TSA checkpoint to get on the news.

    On the other side of it, there is NO reason anyone other than law enforcement should be able to carry a gun ANYWHERE NEAR a courthouse, or police station for that matter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  6. ConHog
    Offline

    ConHog BANNED

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    14,538
    Thanks Received:
    897
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +897
    Here in AR a judge can prevent law enforcement from coming into their courtroom with a weapon, let alone joe schmo, who can't come into a courthouse even if they own a carry permit.

    And you're right, what kind of lunatic would think anyone would need to carry a gun into a courthouse or police station? Some people just can't understand the concept of no right is completely unlimited.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  7. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,014
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    I suppose it is possible that the LEO was simply ignorant, but the judge that set the bail at $100,000 and the prosecutor should both know better. As for guns in the courthouse, he wasn't in a courtroom, he was in the offices, and was following applicable state law, so your personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant.
     
  8. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,014
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    Why not?
     
  9. Mini 14
    Offline

    Mini 14 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,947
    Thanks Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +570
    Let me preface all of this by stating that I am an FFL (I have a Federal license to deal in firearms), I have a CCW (concealed carry permit), and I carry openly wherever allowed, and concealed wherever open-carry is not allowed but concealed-carry is.

    Joel couldn't be more wrong.

    Federal law prohibits carrying a weapon, concealed or open, in any courthouse (Federal. State, County or Local). The arresting officer made it clear that the Judge had issued an ordered that no firearms were to be allowed inside the building (whether or not he/she allows LE to carry is moot, and not indicated in the video). The Judge has authority over the Sheriff, no matter what level of jurisdiction the Judge falls under.

    The LEO was extremely professional, extremely polite, and IMO, demonstrated exemplary behavior in handling the premeditated situation presented by the defendant.

    You will not find a stronger advocate of the 2nd than me. That said, as an FFL, I work closely with ATF, FBI, and local Law Enforcement every day. There are limits to what "our rights" should allow. I have an 11 year-old daughter. It bothers me at times that I am not allowed to carry on school grounds, for the sole fact that I know that if the situation arose, I could take down, or severely limit a terrorist's actions. It bothers me that I am not allowed to carry in a bar, not because I don't drink, but because I used to drink, and I know the game.

    But it has NEVER bothered me that I can't carry in a courtroom or government building, because I know that the professional LE are on site. I'm not a professional, but I'm better than nothing. In a situation where trained professionals are present, I *may* be an asset, but I also *may* be a liability. And I have extensive training (the same firearms training that LE goes through, and then some), but still, I don't do it for a living.

    From the video of the incident (and common knowledge), there are a few things that are obvious:

    1. Joel went there with the intention of causing a conflict.
    2. The LEO handled the situation as professionally and as well as could possibly be expected.
    3. A Judge has rank on a Sheriff.
    4. The LEO, with the authority of the ATF and the FBI, bent over backwards to give Joel every benefit of doubt. I would have likely handled the situation the same, but in watching the video with bias the first time, I might have been inclined to seize his firearm and then arrest him.

    I deal with LEO and ATF every day. They ALLOW me to make a living (I buy and sell guns). At the same time, I consider them one of the best and most beneficial and convenient resources I have (if I'm uncomfortable with a sale, I can deny the customer and blame it on them, and they will back me up). It's a 2-way street, and I know that, so I give them ANY and ALL information I might have to follow-up on a person they're concerned with (even though it is technically "their information" I am providing them).

    At the same time, I am staunchly in favor of gun rights. My State (Alabama) is concealed carry, and for obvious reasons, I lobby for and support open carry. But there Must be cooperation between gun owners and LEO/ATF. The ATF is not Ruby Ridge. It is not Waco. Anyone who truly understands firearms and human nature knows that.

    Something about Joel isn't right. Maybe he is Koresh, or Weaver. Maybe he's just "Joe Knowitall." I don't know what he is, but I'd rather err on the side of practicality and probability than to allow an unrealistic, uncooperative, pissed-off anarchist like himself to run rampant in a courthouse with a sidearm all for the sake of proving a point and settling a score with the Sheriff.

    Cut to the chase:

    Joel is wrong, the LEO is right.

    I'm all for gun rights. I'm "all-in" on the 2nd.

    Joel is everything that is wrong with "my side." He makes all of us look bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2010
  10. JBeukema
    Offline

    JBeukema BANNED

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    25,613
    Thanks Received:
    1,703
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    everywhere and nowhere
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    If you don't think firearms should be allowed on premise, petition for a change in the law


    Have you any evidence that the man violated the law as it exists today?
     

Share This Page