Take the guns first, due process second.

[OldLady]

I needed that.....THANK YOU!

I'm crying I'm laughing so hard.

 

[playtime]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

 

[OldLady]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

May I copy this post to another thread?

 

[Darkwind]

one of the first things trump did when he got the keys to the white house:

Trump blames 'mental illness' for shootings, but rolled back Obama regulation on gun sales

Christopher Wilson
Senior Writer
Yahoo NewsAugust 5, 2019

In the wake of this weekend’s mass shootings in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, President Trump was quick to point to mental illness as a cause, echoing a Republican talking point that emerged in interviews and social media posts on Sunday.

“Mental illness and hatred pull the trigger, not the gun,” said Trump in a speech Monday morning from the White House. He said the country “must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety do not have access to firearms, and that, if they do, those firearms can be taken through rapid due process.”

But in his first full month in office, Trump signed a bill rolling back an Obama-era regulation that would have made it more difficult for people with mental illnesses to purchase firearms. The rule would have used Social Security records to add about 75,000 names to the database used in background checks of gun buyers (from licensed firearms dealers). People receiving supplemental-income support for mental disability and those found unfit to handle their own financial affairs would have been precluded from purchasing firearms. While the rule went on the books just before Trump took office in January 2017, compliance was not mandatory until December 2017.
[...]
Trump blames 'mental illness' for shootings, but rolled back Obama regulation on gun sales

Of those 75,000, have any done anything to justify their names being added to a data base of any kind?

I agree with you. I have worked with a lot of people with a "mental health" SSI disability. Most of them are not dangerous in the least. However, those mentally incompetent enough to lose their rights? That's a real high bar in a court of law, and if they can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves, they don't need to be trusted with a decision about who to shoot, either.

There's also a huge problem here with Mental Health being anyone's ringer, to begin with.

Some of a psychotropic drugs' side effects, are: manic, violent behavior.

Now - in some cases, these psychotropic side-effects occur in one in 2-million folks... that experience this side effect, so we deem the drugs okay to use. I'd agree with doing that, statistically. It's so rare, that it's not right at all to limit the other 1, 999, 999 other folks that won't experience this sort of side effect.

But I'm employing the same logic within the gun debate. It's very rare, even more rare than the statistic of folks that experience violent side-effects on these drugs, for someone to become a mass shooter. Not only that, but most of the folks are either pre-determined to have had a mental illness, or determined as much after the shootings. Something like 94% of shooters? (I'm going off memory)

So - we have a problem that really might be impossible to resolve. I guess we can employ mitigating factors. I dunno if there's any good answer.

You've lost me. ERPO is about individuals exhibiting homicidal/suicidal behavior. One person at a time. I'm not sure how statistical rarity of mass shootings factors into that at all.

Really? You couldn't follow what he was saying?

 

[Darkwind]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

 

[OldLady]

one of the first things trump did when he got the keys to the white house:

Trump blames 'mental illness' for shootings, but rolled back Obama regulation on gun sales

Christopher Wilson
Senior Writer
Yahoo NewsAugust 5, 2019

In the wake of this weekend’s mass shootings in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, President Trump was quick to point to mental illness as a cause, echoing a Republican talking point that emerged in interviews and social media posts on Sunday.

“Mental illness and hatred pull the trigger, not the gun,” said Trump in a speech Monday morning from the White House. He said the country “must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety do not have access to firearms, and that, if they do, those firearms can be taken through rapid due process.”

But in his first full month in office, Trump signed a bill rolling back an Obama-era regulation that would have made it more difficult for people with mental illnesses to purchase firearms. The rule would have used Social Security records to add about 75,000 names to the database used in background checks of gun buyers (from licensed firearms dealers). People receiving supplemental-income support for mental disability and those found unfit to handle their own financial affairs would have been precluded from purchasing firearms. While the rule went on the books just before Trump took office in January 2017, compliance was not mandatory until December 2017.
[...]
Trump blames 'mental illness' for shootings, but rolled back Obama regulation on gun sales

Of those 75,000, have any done anything to justify their names being added to a data base of any kind?

I agree with you. I have worked with a lot of people with a "mental health" SSI disability. Most of them are not dangerous in the least. However, those mentally incompetent enough to lose their rights? That's a real high bar in a court of law, and if they can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves, they don't need to be trusted with a decision about who to shoot, either.

There's also a huge problem here with Mental Health being anyone's ringer, to begin with.

Some of a psychotropic drugs' side effects, are: manic, violent behavior.

Now - in some cases, these psychotropic side-effects occur in one in 2-million folks... that experience this side effect, so we deem the drugs okay to use. I'd agree with doing that, statistically. It's so rare, that it's not right at all to limit the other 1, 999, 999 other folks that won't experience this sort of side effect.

But I'm employing the same logic within the gun debate. It's very rare, even more rare than the statistic of folks that experience violent side-effects on these drugs, for someone to become a mass shooter. Not only that, but most of the folks are either pre-determined to have had a mental illness, or determined as much after the shootings. Something like 94% of shooters? (I'm going off memory)

So - we have a problem that really might be impossible to resolve. I guess we can employ mitigating factors. I dunno if there's any good answer.

You've lost me. ERPO is about individuals exhibiting homicidal/suicidal behavior. One person at a time. I'm not sure how statistical rarity of mass shootings factors into that at all.

Really? You couldn't follow what he was saying?

 

[OldLady]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

 

[Papageorgio]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

The guy must have been very naive. To think one could control his invention. Funny how after all these years his family is only now claiming why Mr. Stoner invented the Armorite Lite Rifle 15.

 

[Darkwind]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

I am not a Trumpkin, and you harm your cause when you use such insults.

I was likely one of the very first people no this forum to denounce Trump for these anti-Constitutional red flag laws.

 

[Papageorgio]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

Except it is his family that is making the claim, not him. Why only now and not when he invented it?

 

[Darkwind]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

The man who designed it wasn't speaking, was he? It was his family.

It isn't really any wonder that you don't grasp what is going on around you.

From the post you want to quote.

...we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle

 

[OldLady]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

Except it is his family that is making the claim, not him. Why only now and not when he invented it?

Why now? Because there are people like you arguing that it was designed as a sport rifle.

His family is making the claim because he is dead.

 

[OldLady]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

I am not a Trumpkin, and you harm your cause when you use such insults.

I was likely one of the very first people no this forum to denounce Trump for these anti-Constitutional red flag laws.

Why do you want homicidal/suicidal people in crisis to have guns?

 

[Darkwind]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

Except it is his family that is making the claim, not him. Why only now and not when he invented it?

Why now? Because there are people like you arguing that it was designed as a sport rifle.

His family is making the claim because he is dead.

So, the guy who designed it has not said that he designed it as a military weapon.

/discussion.

 

[Darkwind]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

I am not a Trumpkin, and you harm your cause when you use such insults.

I was likely one of the very first people no this forum to denounce Trump for these anti-Constitutional red flag laws.

Why do you want homicidal/suicidal people in crisis to have guns?

I don't.

I don't want YOU or ANYONE to take guns away from people who are NOT homicidal or suicidal.

You don't cure drunk driving by taking the privilege of driving away from those who are sober.

 

[easyt65]

Why do you want homicidal/suicidal people in crisis to have guns?

Nice, let's just make shit / false accusations up. That always works / makes for a great honest and truthful discussion.



The fact is that in the El Paso mass shooting case the SYSTEM already in place failed. The school was supposed to report him to the police. The police was supposed to put him on a list that would prevent him from buying a weapon.

The FACT is every time there is a mass shooting we go through this entire circle jerk all over again, and every time lying / agenda-driven Leftists blame the Conservative President / NRA (while protecting their own - WARREN) from the same accusations. Squeezing every drop of manipulated emotion and anger immediately after the tragedy in order to try to further their agenda is more important.

The FACT is 'mental illness / instability' has been identified as a major problem again and again and again....and more times than not there were more than enough warning signs and chances to prevent it than not...that were missed.

The FACT is the 'Red Flag' bill is an attempt to strip Americans of their rights, disguised as a 'prevevtative measure' that allows the govt to get a secret warrant, barge into your home, seize your guns while declaring you are unfit to own them, and then the individual has to wait up until a year to get the opportunity to prove you are innocent - 'GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT'.

That helps the Left push their agenda and is a whole lot easier than 'due diligence' and or blaming / holding the system / individuals who had signs but failed to do what they were supposed to do OR holding the actual shooter responsible.

 

[easyt65]

You don't cure drunk driving by taking the privilege of driving away from those who are sober.

The idea is equivalent to someone suggesting you are a dangerous / drunk driver, the govt showing up and taking your car, and then you have to prove the accusations against you are not true....

 

[Papageorgio]

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians
[...]
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
[...]
The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."
[...]
He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16
[...]
Family of AR-15 Inventor: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians

Anyone who would bring an AR15 into a combat situation is an idiot. It was NOT designed to be a military weapon. Just to look scary.

Political agenda's, you have to just shake your head.

Right. What does the man who designed it know?

Except it is his family that is making the claim, not him. Why only now and not when he invented it?

Why now? Because there are people like you arguing that it was designed as a sport rifle.

His family is making the claim because he is dead.

Where did I claim it was designed as a sport rifle?

I am merely stating a fact. No one knows what he designed or intended. We have no idea what the family’s motivation for making the statement. Their statement didn’t use facts, it used emotion as in “we feel”. I look for motivation and deeper meanings and how things are said. I don’t take things at face value.

 

[OldLady]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

I am not a Trumpkin, and you harm your cause when you use such insults.

I was likely one of the very first people no this forum to denounce Trump for these anti-Constitutional red flag laws.

Why do you want homicidal/suicidal people in crisis to have guns?

I don't.

I don't want YOU or ANYONE to take guns away from people who are NOT homicidal or suicidal.

You don't cure drunk driving by taking the privilege of driving away from those who are sober.

We are talking about Red Flag (ERPO) laws. They only apply to people who are homicidal or suicidal. I fail to see your issue.

 

[Darkwind]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

I am not a Trumpkin, and you harm your cause when you use such insults.

I was likely one of the very first people no this forum to denounce Trump for these anti-Constitutional red flag laws.

Why do you want homicidal/suicidal people in crisis to have guns?

I don't.

I don't want YOU or ANYONE to take guns away from people who are NOT homicidal or suicidal.

You don't cure drunk driving by taking the privilege of driving away from those who are sober.

We are talking about Red Flag (ERPO) laws. They only apply to people who are homicidal or suicidal. I fail to see your issue.

Do you fail to see the violation of liberties to the American citizen? In your world, is it better to be thought guilty first and then force someone to become bankrupt trying to prove their innocence, all on the strength of an accusation?

Next you'll be saying that some liberties must be denied for the good of the many. A line and policy that every mass-murdering government in history has utilized.