Take the guns first, due process second.

[Crixus]

Still waiting for you to explain how one in two million people having an adverse reaction to a psychotropic drug somehow becomes an argument against a Red Flag law.

It's not an argument against red flag laws - its merely pointing out that we find it perfectly okay to cause manic/violent behavior because the side effect is RARE.

And manic/violent behavior causes mass shootings...but mass shootings are even more rare than the side effects we're fine with gambling on.

Its evident... that in some cases we are okay with risking violence. And that deserves to be a part of the discussion ~ meaning, are we placing restrictions on free citizens using arbitrary/inconsistent reasoning, basing it on something thats really quite rare, using the emotions that seeing these things on TV brings us...or are we being rational and consistent.

Of the 10, 000 yearly deaths, the majority are not due to the mentally ill mass shooters, either. Theyre due to punk kids, and red flag laws dont resolve the largest issue regarding gun deaths...only seeks to mitigate the more irrational/emotional one.

Which it won't do because if one wants to kill allot of people, or even just try they have many options to do just that. They can do like the Boston bombers did and use fireworks and pressure cookers, they can take over an aircraft, they can grab the keys and go for a drive, they can grab a knife from the kitchen, and axe from the shed or a spork from Taco Bell.

Duh. So what is your solution?

Consider this:

Common sense gun regulations may not prevent a monster from getting a gun, but no regulations assure a monster will get a gun and kill innocent people.

As for driving a car, using pressure cookers, taking over an aircraft or any other means to take a human life, guns seem to be the tool of choice.

Let Me correct this for you.

Common sense gun regulations WILL NOT prevent a monster from getting a gun. FULL STOP

Gun regulations serve to harm ONLY the innocent.

Oh bullshit. The only innocents are those shot, killed or maimed and the families and friends of those victims attacked by the monsters. MONSTERS YOU enable and that makes you culpable.

Pure emotion. Pointless.

 

[Crixus]

So this is what Trump said. Mike Pence says take ANYTHING that is dangerous. I gotta ask how this squares with Trumps claim to love the 2nd amendment and his promise to protect it, yet here he is trying to remove it, as well as the 4th amendment.



So I ask you die hard trumpkins, y'all good with this?

Of course you candidates would absolutely support the 2nd.

If they do or not it has nothing to do with the conflict between Trump's words and what he does.

Of course it does. They will make every effort to peel away support from a man who in infinitely better than who they are trying to replace him with.

Wow.

 

[playtime]

uh-huh. .223 ammo was used to kill them thar 'varmints' at sandy hook.... & parkland... & the orlando nightclub.................. it's not just the bullets - like i said it's the multi round mags & drums as well. they were all turned into swiss cheese in mere seconds & those bullets don't enter & exit in a relative 'straight line'... the dude that invented the AR-15 didn't want it for public consumption.

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that other bullets are not lethal.

Let me demonstrate why you are not making a good argument:

Fine. You can ban the .223 cartridge ONLY, and I want a constitutional amendment stating that no other cartridge will be banned EVER.

The AR system can be used with MANY different calibers and cartridges, including all common pistol calibers and subsonic rounds, as well as .308, 7mm08, .243, .270 etc.

There. Problem solved.

We get to keep the AR system.

if you can't hit your target or kill a varmint with a 10 round clip, then you have no biz'nez owning a deadly rapid fire weapon.

An AR shoots at the same rate of fire as any other semi-auto gun. Did you know that?

40-round magazines are in common use. Defending a home in the dark against multiple threats makes a magazine change dangerous.

So, fuck off. We're not surrendering hi-cap mags.

.

rapid fire as in non stop from them thar mags & drums. no need to switch out - making the most efficient kills. 20 children dead in <3min.... the ohio shooter killed 9 & wounded 26 more all in 32 secs...............

 

[playtime]

he never even owned his own invention.

And?

if he thought it okey dokey to have it on the market for public consumption, then why didn't he? that alone makes no sense...

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

I didn't realize you were one of those people who says the information must be a lie if you don't like it. He didn't own one. His FAMILY said so. Call them liars again; maybe they'll sue you. They should.

Did I say they lied? I am saying no one knows and the family might have an agenda. I have no clue and neither do you. You are taking the word of a family you have never met and might have an agenda.

What is wrong with not accepting info at face value and researching and making sure?

i didn't ever read anything to the contrary so taking the word of a family makes sence & why would they do that knowing what assholes would denigrate him or them? to try to change minds because of their own views? doubtful. why are you more inclined to question their motives than to think the odds are they are telling the truth?

 

[playtime]

he never even owned his own invention.

And?

if he thought it okey dokey to have it on the market for public consumption, then why didn't he? that alone makes no sense...

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

i have no problems believing his family. why would you?

Okay. Why should I?

why not?

 

[Crixus]

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that other bullets are not lethal.

Let me demonstrate why you are not making a good argument:

Fine. You can ban the .223 cartridge ONLY, and I want a constitutional amendment stating that no other cartridge will be banned EVER.

The AR system can be used with MANY different calibers and cartridges, including all common pistol calibers and subsonic rounds, as well as .308, 7mm08, .243, .270 etc.

There. Problem solved.

We get to keep the AR system.

if you can't hit your target or kill a varmint with a 10 round clip, then you have no biz'nez owning a deadly rapid fire weapon.

An AR shoots at the same rate of fire as any other semi-auto gun. Did you know that?

40-round magazines are in common use. Defending a home in the dark against multiple threats makes a magazine change dangerous.

So, fuck off. We're not surrendering hi-cap mags.

.

rapid fire as in non stop from them thar mags & drums. no need to switch out - making the most efficient kills. 20 children dead in <3min.... the ohio shooter killed 9 & wounded 26 more all in 32 secs...............

Cars do it faster.

 

[playtime]

Could you clear it up further please. The high vel ammo part. Playtime don't understand how all that works. I don't see threads on those barrels so would you high velocity ammo with those or subsonic?

Playtime has demonstrated that she should not be part of the process of defining which weapons should be banned. She is clueless.

But, to clear it up, every one of those would be considered "high-velocity" whether chambered in .223 or something else, unless they are specifically NOT high-velocity or maybe "subsonic" cartridges. "High-velocity" can range from 1,900 feet per second to over 4,000 feet per second.

Pretty much every single rifle caliber could be considered "high-velocity".

The question I have is, why does velocity matter? .300 Blackout is deadly as FUCK in the AR system and it is subsonic.

uh-huh. .223 ammo was used to kill them thar 'varmints' at sandy hook.... & parkland... & the orlando nightclub.................. it's not just the bullets - like i said it's the multi round mags & drums as well. they were all turned into swiss cheese in mere seconds & those bullets don't enter & exit in a relative 'straight line'... the dude that invented the AR-15 didn't want it for public consumption.

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

Good. A weapon is not a toy and it should do as much damage as possible.

However, you haven't provided a single reason for taking them away from innocent people.

never said they should. lol, good comprehension you got goin' there.........

 

[Papageorgio]

And?

if he thought it okey dokey to have it on the market for public consumption, then why didn't he? that alone makes no sense...

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

I didn't realize you were one of those people who says the information must be a lie if you don't like it. He didn't own one. His FAMILY said so. Call them liars again; maybe they'll sue you. They should.

Did I say they lied? I am saying no one knows and the family might have an agenda. I have no clue and neither do you. You are taking the word of a family you have never met and might have an agenda.

What is wrong with not accepting info at face value and researching and making sure?

i didn't ever read anything to the contrary so taking the word of a family makes sence & why would they do that knowing what assholes would denigrate him or them? to try to change minds because of their own views? doubtful. why are you more inclined to question their motives than to think the odds are they are telling the truth?

That is cool for you. Why must I take their word for it? I don't know them or their motives for making their statement. It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.

 

[Papageorgio]

And?

if he thought it okey dokey to have it on the market for public consumption, then why didn't he? that alone makes no sense...

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

i have no problems believing his family. why would you?

Okay. Why should I?

why not?

Because there is no need to is there?

 

[playtime]

Could you clear it up further please. The high vel ammo part. Playtime don't understand how all that works. I don't see threads on those barrels so would you high velocity ammo with those or subsonic?

Playtime has demonstrated that she should not be part of the process of defining which weapons should be banned. She is clueless.

But, to clear it up, every one of those would be considered "high-velocity" whether chambered in .223 or something else, unless they are specifically NOT high-velocity or maybe "subsonic" cartridges. "High-velocity" can range from 1,900 feet per second to over 4,000 feet per second.

Pretty much every single rifle caliber could be considered "high-velocity".

The question I have is, why does velocity matter? .300 Blackout is deadly as FUCK in the AR system and it is subsonic.

uh-huh. .223 ammo was used to kill them thar 'varmints' at sandy hook.... & parkland... & the orlando nightclub.................. it's not just the bullets - like i said it's the multi round mags & drums as well. they were all turned into swiss cheese in mere seconds & those bullets don't enter & exit in a relative 'straight line'... the dude that invented the AR-15 didn't want it for public consumption.

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You are only proving your ignorance on the topic.

nothing ignorant about wanting something to be done to stop an obvious nutbag with very obvious red flags - & a bushmaster - b4 he could massacre them.

 

[playtime]

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that other bullets are not lethal.

Let me demonstrate why you are not making a good argument:

Fine. You can ban the .223 cartridge ONLY, and I want a constitutional amendment stating that no other cartridge will be banned EVER.

The AR system can be used with MANY different calibers and cartridges, including all common pistol calibers and subsonic rounds, as well as .308, 7mm08, .243, .270 etc.

There. Problem solved.

We get to keep the AR system.

if you can't hit your target or kill a varmint with a 10 round clip, then you have no biz'nez owning a deadly rapid fire weapon.

An AR shoots at the same rate of fire as any other semi-auto gun. Did you know that?

40-round magazines are in common use. Defending a home in the dark against multiple threats makes a magazine change dangerous.

So, fuck off. We're not surrendering hi-cap mags.

.

rapid fire as in non stop from them thar mags & drums. no need to switch out - making the most efficient kills. 20 children dead in <3min.... the ohio shooter killed 9 & wounded 26 more all in 32 secs...............

Cars do it faster.

the only function of a car is not to kill.

 

[pknopp]

Playtime has demonstrated that she should not be part of the process of defining which weapons should be banned. She is clueless.

But, to clear it up, every one of those would be considered "high-velocity" whether chambered in .223 or something else, unless they are specifically NOT high-velocity or maybe "subsonic" cartridges. "High-velocity" can range from 1,900 feet per second to over 4,000 feet per second.

Pretty much every single rifle caliber could be considered "high-velocity".

The question I have is, why does velocity matter? .300 Blackout is deadly as FUCK in the AR system and it is subsonic.

uh-huh. .223 ammo was used to kill them thar 'varmints' at sandy hook.... & parkland... & the orlando nightclub.................. it's not just the bullets - like i said it's the multi round mags & drums as well. they were all turned into swiss cheese in mere seconds & those bullets don't enter & exit in a relative 'straight line'... the dude that invented the AR-15 didn't want it for public consumption.

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You are only proving your ignorance on the topic.

nothing ignorant about wanting something to be done to stop an obvious nutbag with very obvious red flags - & a bushmaster - b4 he could massacre them.

It's quite possible there are times it's legit but to do that a person should get proper due process and a right to defend themselves.

 

[whitehall]

There is no evidence that the Trump administration supports firearms confiscation. That's a left wing idea.

 

[playtime]

if he thought it okey dokey to have it on the market for public consumption, then why didn't he? that alone makes no sense...

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

I didn't realize you were one of those people who says the information must be a lie if you don't like it. He didn't own one. His FAMILY said so. Call them liars again; maybe they'll sue you. They should.

Did I say they lied? I am saying no one knows and the family might have an agenda. I have no clue and neither do you. You are taking the word of a family you have never met and might have an agenda.

What is wrong with not accepting info at face value and researching and making sure?

i didn't ever read anything to the contrary so taking the word of a family makes sence & why would they do that knowing what assholes would denigrate him or them? to try to change minds because of their own views? doubtful. why are you more inclined to question their motives than to think the odds are they are telling the truth?

That is cool for you. Why must I take their word for it? I don't know them or their motives for making their statement. It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.

never said you had to accept it. is that cool for you?

'It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.'

but of COURSE.... it's all a nefarious plot to gun grab.... ya that must be the ticket.

maybe they spoke out because they thought he would have but couldn't.

 

[Crixus]

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that other bullets are not lethal.

Let me demonstrate why you are not making a good argument:

Fine. You can ban the .223 cartridge ONLY, and I want a constitutional amendment stating that no other cartridge will be banned EVER.

The AR system can be used with MANY different calibers and cartridges, including all common pistol calibers and subsonic rounds, as well as .308, 7mm08, .243, .270 etc.

There. Problem solved.

We get to keep the AR system.

if you can't hit your target or kill a varmint with a 10 round clip, then you have no biz'nez owning a deadly rapid fire weapon.

An AR shoots at the same rate of fire as any other semi-auto gun. Did you know that?

40-round magazines are in common use. Defending a home in the dark against multiple threats makes a magazine change dangerous.

So, fuck off. We're not surrendering hi-cap mags.

.

rapid fire as in non stop from them thar mags & drums. no need to switch out - making the most efficient kills. 20 children dead in <3min.... the ohio shooter killed 9 & wounded 26 more all in 32 secs...............

Cars do it faster.

the only function of a car is not to kill.

But they do. And this is where Trumps "take it first, due process later" can screw you. This will come to be the law. Trumps red flag law. And Mike Penc's "anything dangerous" will be used to get anything else. You are so duped that you can giggle at your key board and think it's cool because it's just about guns. It's not. You to can be deemed "dangerous" by a face book post. So could your hubby you are so proud of (good on you to) by a simple tweet or Facebook post. So take solace, the red flag law will pass. Be happy about it, but when it's no longer guns, but car keys, an axe, a kitchen knife you won't be giggling about it any more.

 

[Papageorgio]

It makes no sense that people go back 50 plus years to ascertain what a person's motives were at the time of his invention. How do you know for sure he did not own one? Oh, his family said so, you know the ones trying to control the narrative on the family name. Find the quote where Stoner ever denied owning one. He went on to invent other guns and rifles later in his life.

I didn't realize you were one of those people who says the information must be a lie if you don't like it. He didn't own one. His FAMILY said so. Call them liars again; maybe they'll sue you. They should.

Did I say they lied? I am saying no one knows and the family might have an agenda. I have no clue and neither do you. You are taking the word of a family you have never met and might have an agenda.

What is wrong with not accepting info at face value and researching and making sure?

i didn't ever read anything to the contrary so taking the word of a family makes sence & why would they do that knowing what assholes would denigrate him or them? to try to change minds because of their own views? doubtful. why are you more inclined to question their motives than to think the odds are they are telling the truth?

That is cool for you. Why must I take their word for it? I don't know them or their motives for making their statement. It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.

never said you had to accept it. is that cool for you?

'It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.'

but of COURSE.... it's all a nefarious plot to gun grab.... ya that must be the ticket.

maybe they spoke out because they thought he would have but couldn't.

Well they did use the word feel, which is what they could believe he thought, however since he never commented publicly we really don't know, do we?

 

[Crixus]

uh-huh. .223 ammo was used to kill them thar 'varmints' at sandy hook.... & parkland... & the orlando nightclub.................. it's not just the bullets - like i said it's the multi round mags & drums as well. they were all turned into swiss cheese in mere seconds & those bullets don't enter & exit in a relative 'straight line'... the dude that invented the AR-15 didn't want it for public consumption.

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You are only proving your ignorance on the topic.

nothing ignorant about wanting something to be done to stop an obvious nutbag with very obvious red flags - & a bushmaster - b4 he could massacre them.

It's quite possible there are times it's legit but to do that a person should get proper due process and a right to defend themselves.

And who decides? And why is it okay to have a "disarming panel" but not a "death panel"? Government involvement in anything has never ended well.

 

[pknopp]

There is no evidence that the Trump administration supports firearms confiscation. That's a left wing idea.

"I like taking guns away early," Trump said. "Take the guns first, go through due process second."

Trump says take guns first and worry about 'due process second' in White House gun meeting

Granted, he does speak without the ability to think.

 

[pknopp]

Learn when to shut the fuck up. You are clueless.

.

THEY DO.

Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’
Trauma surgeons tell what it is really like to try to repair such devastating injuries. “Bones are exploded, soft tissue is absolutely destroyed,” one said.

Image

Left, an X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat. Right, an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia.Creditvia Dr. Jeremy W. Cannon
Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them.

At a high school in Parkland, Fla., 17 people were recently killed with just such a weapon — a semiautomatic AR-15. It was legal there for Nikolas Cruz, 19, the suspect in the shooting, to buy a civilian version of the military’s standard rifle, while he would have had to be 21 to buy a less powerful and accurate handgun.

Many factors determine the severity of a wound, including a bullet’s mass, velocity and composition, and where it strikes. The AR-15, like the M4 and M16 rifles issued to American soldiers, shoots lightweight, high-speed bullets that can cause grievous bone and soft tissue wounds, in part by turning sideways, or “yawing,” when they hit a person. Surgeons say the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields.

Civilian owners of military-style weapons can also buy soft-nosed or hollow-point ammunition, often used for hunting, that lacks a full metal jacket and can expand and fragment on impact. Such bullets, which can cause wider wound channels, are proscribed in most military use.
[...]
Wounds From Military-Style Rifles? ‘A Ghastly Thing to See’

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body
Chris Smith @chris_writes
June 21st, 2016 at 10:00 PM
[...]
“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Furthermore, AR-15 bullets don’t just affect the skin and the tissue immediately under it. In addition to turning a bone to dust or liver into jello, the high energy would also cause damage around the entry and exit wounds.

When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissue can ripple just like water does when you throw an object in it. But it all happens at increased velocity. The bullet and its ensuing fragments might miss a critical artery, but the cavitation effect could tear through blood vessels.

Rhee also said that a handgun would require only one surgery, but an AR-15 bullet wound needs three to ten.

Because it’s designed so well, the AR-15 fires almost without recoil, meaning that a shooter can inflict more damage with multiple bullets accurately hitting the same target. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” Denver Health trauma surgeon and Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery editor Ernest Moore told Wired.

A video from the Smithsonian Channel shows the devastating effects of assault rifle fire on the human body: [on website]
What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body

You are only proving your ignorance on the topic.

nothing ignorant about wanting something to be done to stop an obvious nutbag with very obvious red flags - & a bushmaster - b4 he could massacre them.

It's quite possible there are times it's legit but to do that a person should get proper due process and a right to defend themselves.

And who decides? And why is it okay to have a "disarming panel" but not a "death panel"? Government involvement in anything has never ended well.

Who decides? Who is deciding now? We have long removed people's rights through due process.

 

[playtime]

I didn't realize you were one of those people who says the information must be a lie if you don't like it. He didn't own one. His FAMILY said so. Call them liars again; maybe they'll sue you. They should.

Did I say they lied? I am saying no one knows and the family might have an agenda. I have no clue and neither do you. You are taking the word of a family you have never met and might have an agenda.

What is wrong with not accepting info at face value and researching and making sure?

i didn't ever read anything to the contrary so taking the word of a family makes sence & why would they do that knowing what assholes would denigrate him or them? to try to change minds because of their own views? doubtful. why are you more inclined to question their motives than to think the odds are they are telling the truth?

That is cool for you. Why must I take their word for it? I don't know them or their motives for making their statement. It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.

never said you had to accept it. is that cool for you?

'It seems there is a motive otherwise they would have stayed quiet about it.'

but of COURSE.... it's all a nefarious plot to gun grab.... ya that must be the ticket.

maybe they spoke out because they thought he would have but couldn't.

Well they did use the word feel, which is what they could believe he thought, however since he never commented publicly we really don't know, do we?

it depends. i know how my father would FEEL about trump in office & what he's doing to our relationships with NATO allies & cuddling up to dictators; since he served in the phillipines after being drafted into the army air corp in WW2.