Zone1 Sociopolitical debate vs group think

[Foxfyre]

Sure. When you claim group think is a problem and I see. "Wokeness", "the deep state", "corrupt MSM", Hunter Biden" appear as your chosen subjects I'm not entirely sure how you aren't subject to group think.

This is begging the question.

Again begging the question.

Begging the question.

Guess what? Dragonlady did by linking a contemporary account of the firing of Shokin. You, however did not respond when she gave you exactly what you asked for.

This is like I said just going by some recent posts. And I understand that it's very easy to use fallacies. I will even concede that especially that last point can have several completely good faith reasons. I've abandoned OP's myself. My point is simply this. If you want to have an honest exchange of ideas things like begging the question are poison. They're a widely used and effective debating technique as you probably well know. On the other hand they aren't by themselves valid points and offer nothing to any sort of resolution.

I didn't see any need to respond to Dragonlady on that topic. She didn't ask for a response. I read what she wrote and made note of it. She may be absolutely right. And she may be using sources that are as much propaganda as factual. I don't know. Carefully listening/reading what people in a position to know have said otherwise, I can say that to me, it doesn't meet the smell test but I don't know. I have said I don't believe we have sufficient evidence, at least not yet, to convict Biden on a bribery/extortion charge on that particular issue. I do stand by that.

I don't engage in right wing group think on that and I sure won't engage in left wing group think on that. I don't know.

 

[Foxfyre]

I see. Good thing you aren't subject to groupthink who can't defend statements of 'facts' when challenged.

And that we are now into ad hominem most likely born of group think and have departed from civil debate I'll wish you a pleasant afternoon and move on.

 

[forkup]

And that we are now into ad hominem most likely born of group think and have departed from civil debate I'll wish you a pleasant afternoon and move on.

Not at all. You defined groupthink. I challenged you going by that definition. Something you seem to want to avoid. And something that to me is the reason it's so hard to actually debate.

In an actual debate, you would be forced to actually respond to the point I made. Here I can't make you do that.

As such we can't come to any sort of resolution because it's to easy to avoid arguments that aren't in your favor.

Foxfyre. As a debate coach you have to know that conceding a point does not mean you lose the argument. Yet as someone on this board, you rather flee than engage, when engaging means you have to concede anything.

This is why people leave. It's frustrating when people don't argue in good faith.

 

[Dante Reawakened]

But you see, I see statements like yours here as an example of 'group think' from the left. It is a blanket statement that you cannot support with any evidence.

If I say I am not voting for a person's personality or private life but rather for the person who produced amazingly good results for America, I am accused of not caring about whether the person broke the law. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

At the same time I won't agree that somebody broke the law just because somebody with political motive and utilizing the politics of personal destruction say he broke the law or want him to have broken the law. And that is evenmoreso when it strongly appears the Democrat/deep state machine is engaged in malicious political persecution/prosecution for political reasons and those accusing him don't care whether it is malicious politically motivated prosecution.

I despise what Biden and/or his handlers are doing to this country aided and abetted by a radical leftwing Congress, media, etc. but I am very careful not to accuse him of something that I think we don't have evidence to prove. You won't, for example, ever see me posting 'pedo Joe' or some such. I am pretty sure of my ground before I accuse somebody.

Saying that something looks or smells bad is not the same thing as making a flat out accusation. In that I am quite different from some other MAGA persons who are angry and more confident of their beliefs and will say flat out that he did it while I wait for more evidence to surface. And those MAGAs will more often than not attack me if I disagree with their position on something or propose something that doesn't fit their narrative.

THAT is destructive group think whether it comes from the left or the right.

Yes, those who make unprovable claims about Biden or anybody else, no matter whether they are MAGA Patriots or otherwise conservative, are engaging in destructive group think and are in the wrong as well in my opinion as weakening the image of the MAGA movement overall.

And the left is just as wrong accusing Trump or others when all they have to go on is the narrative produced by group think.

Dante's statement:

Groupthink doesn't seek a consensus. It demands agreement and conformity. We see it frighteningly in MAGA. People admitting they think a candidate broke laws, but don't care -- in this one case. It creates a cognitive dissonance that allows terrible results

Groupthink? The Left? First, I am no leftists

Now, What I posted is not a blanket statement. And the evidence? It's people in their own words. We know for a fact a few things Trump planted in the minds of his following:

Donald J. Trump famously marveled during his first presidential campaign that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and he would not lose any support.

He now seems intent on testing the premise of unwavering loyalty behind that statement.

Widely, commonly known news reports:

He continues to hold strong in a hypothetical general election matchup, despite the fact that 17 percent of voters who prefer him over President Biden think either that he has committed serious federal crimes or that he threatened democracy with his actions after the 2020 election, according to the latest New York Times/Siena College poll.

“I think he’s committed crimes,” said Joseph Derito, 81, of Elmira, N.Y. “I think he’s done terrible things. But he’s also done a lot of good.”

Despite his distaste for the former president, Mr. Derito said he was likely to vote for Mr. Trump again. The alternative, he said, is far less palatable.

“I used to lean toward the Democratic Party because they were for the working middle class,” he said. Now, he added, “I don’t like Trump, but I like the Democrats a lot less.”

Voter Attitudes About the Trump Investigations​

Thinking about the investigations into Donald J. Trump, do you think that he has or has not committed any serious federal crimes?






In September, just 6 percent of self-identified Republicans said Mr. Trump had committed crimes. That number in the latest poll, which was conducted before federal prosecutors added additional charges in the classified documents case, is now 13 percent.
The share of Republicans who say they are not sure whether he committed crimes has also grown, to 13 percent from 10 percent in September. In total, a quarter of Republicans either believe Mr. Trump acted criminally or say they are not sure.

So far, however, having reservations about Mr. Trump’s alleged wrongdoing does not appear to be leading Republican voters to reconsider their support for him. If anything, in public opinion polls conducted when he was indicted in March in Manhattan in relation to hush money payments to a porn star, and then when he was indicted again in June by federal prosecutors in connection with retention of reams of classified national defense material, Mr. Trump was buoyed by Republican voters.

 

[Dante Reawakened]

Which is why, in the case of the investigator Biden demanded be fired,

Biden carried out US policy. He himself was not demanding anything. And most of the Free Capitalist Democracies were demanding what US policy was

 

[Dante Reawakened]

And that we are now into ad hominem most likely born of group think and have departed from civil debate I'll wish you a pleasant afternoon and move on.

cancel?

 

[Dante Reawakened]

I despise what Biden and/or his handlers are doing to this country aided and abetted by a radical leftwing Congress, media, etc. but I am very careful not to accuse him of something that I think we don't have evidence to prove. You won't, for example, ever see me posting 'pedo Joe' or some such. I am pretty sure of my ground before I accuse somebody.

Biden and the Democrats in Congress are not radical or leftwing. The media? They will eat up a Democrat given a good scandal. They helped derail Hillary an went viciously after Bill and his Oval Office bj

Did you despise Joe Biden before 2008?

 

[Blues Man]

There is a two edged sword here I think. On one hand, shared values, traditions, laws regulating conduct that encourage constructive behavior and thinking can be very good for society, strengthens it, promotes cooperation, less crime, better choices, more prosperity. This is not 'group think' so much as it is social contract that allows people to live together in harmony and cooperation.

On the other hand, rejection of those shared values, traditions, heritage as we saw with the Hippie generation erodes society, weakens it, promotes poorer choices and inevitably produces more crime, declining communities, reduced quality of life.

The old maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" does seem to be better for a society that actually works to the benefit of most rather than the iconoclastic mentality that in itself can sometimes be group think.

I don't think an iconoclast would be guilty of groupthink.

The role of iconoclast is to be contrarian

 

[Leo123]

There is a two edged sword here I think. On one hand, shared values, traditions, laws regulating conduct that encourage constructive behavior and thinking can be very good for society, strengthens it, promotes cooperation, less crime, better choices, more prosperity. This is not 'group think' so much as it is social contract that allows people to live together in harmony and cooperation.

On the other hand, rejection of those shared values, traditions, heritage as we saw with the Hippie generation erodes society, weakens it, promotes poorer choices and inevitably produces more crime, declining communities, reduced quality of life.

The old maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" does seem to be better for a society that actually works to the benefit of most rather than the iconoclastic mentality that in itself can sometimes be group think.

In today's political landscape, values, traditions, laws regulating conduct and constructive behavior are largely undermined by those seeking to tear down and 'build back' to relative morality that is determined by a central governmental power.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not at all. You defined groupthink. I challenged you going by that definition. Something you seem to want to avoid. And something that to me is the reason it's so hard to actually debate.

In an actual debate, you would be forced to actually respond to the point I made. Here I can't make you do that.

As such we can't come to any sort of resolution because it's to easy to avoid arguments that aren't in your favor.

Foxfyre. As a debate coach you have to know that conceding a point does not mean you lose the argument. Yet as someone on this board, you rather flee than engage, when engaging means you have to concede anything.

This is why people leave. It's frustrating when people don't argue in good faith.

Also I provided definitions for group think in the OP. Did you miss that?

 

[Foxfyre]

Dante's statement:


Groupthink? The Left? First, I am no leftists

Now, What I posted is not a blanket statement. And the evidence? It's people in their own words. We know for a fact a few things Trump planted in the minds of his following:



Widely, commonly known news reports:

He continues to hold strong in a hypothetical general election matchup, despite the fact that 17 percent of voters who prefer him over President Biden think either that he has committed serious federal crimes or that he threatened democracy with his actions after the 2020 election, according to the latest New York Times/Siena College poll.

“I think he’s committed crimes,” said Joseph Derito, 81, of Elmira, N.Y. “I think he’s done terrible things. But he’s also done a lot of good.”

Despite his distaste for the former president, Mr. Derito said he was likely to vote for Mr. Trump again. The alternative, he said, is far less palatable.

“I used to lean toward the Democratic Party because they were for the working middle class,” he said. Now, he added, “I don’t like Trump, but I like the Democrats a lot less.”

Voter Attitudes About the Trump Investigations​

Thinking about the investigations into Donald J. Trump, do you think that he has or has not committed any serious federal crimes?


View attachment 818589



In September, just 6 percent of self-identified Republicans said Mr. Trump had committed crimes. That number in the latest poll, which was conducted before federal prosecutors added additional charges in the classified documents case, is now 13 percent.
The share of Republicans who say they are not sure whether he committed crimes has also grown, to 13 percent from 10 percent in September. In total, a quarter of Republicans either believe Mr. Trump acted criminally or say they are not sure.

So far, however, having reservations about Mr. Trump’s alleged wrongdoing does not appear to be leading Republican voters to reconsider their support for him. If anything, in public opinion polls conducted when he was indicted in March in Manhattan in relation to hush money payments to a porn star, and then when he was indicted again in June by federal prosecutors in connection with retention of reams of classified national defense material, Mr. Trump was buoyed by Republican voters.

I'm sorry but I stand by what I've already stated about this as I have already addressed every point relevant to this thread. If Trump is going to be damned for metaphor or hyperbole so be it. I allow anybody that kind of leeway though.

 

[Foxfyre]

Biden carried out US policy. He himself was not demanding anything. And most of the Free Capitalist Democracies were demanding what US policy was

If you want points for intellectual honesty from me you will not edit out the part of my post that fully explains what I think about something and/or qualifies a statement.

 

[Foxfyre]

cancel?

Nope. Just an explanation of why I will choose to to further engage.

 

[Foxfyre]

Biden and the Democrats in Congress are not radical or leftwing. The media? They will eat up a Democrat given a good scandal. They helped derail Hillary an went viciously after Bill and his Oval Office bj

Did you despise Joe Biden before 2008?

I have had little respect for Biden since the Clarence Thomas hearings to confirm him to the Supreme Court, and nothing he has said or done since then earns my respect. I do not despise him.

As to the rest of your post I accept that as your opinion but it does nothing to rebut mine.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't think an iconoclast would be guilty of groupthink.

The role of iconoclast is to be contrarian

That is not how I define iconoclast. I define it as one who goes against tradition or traditional values or one who opposes religious images or one who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions.

Such a person can simply be an outlier or rebel. Or, like the Hippies of the 1960's, may be a participant in a new group think.

 

[Foxfyre]

In today's political landscape, values, traditions, laws regulating conduct and constructive behavior are largely undermined by those seeking to tear down and 'build back' to relative morality that is determined by a central governmental power.

Yep. And that is what an iconoclast by its most common definition does.

 

[Blues Man]

That is not how I define iconoclast. I define it as one who goes against tradition or traditional values or one who opposes religious images or one who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions.

Such a person can simply be an outlier or rebel. Or, like the Hippies of the 1960's, may be a participant in a new group think.

Like I said a contrarian.

 

[Foxfyre]

Like I said a contrarian.

Yes but the Hippies were not just rebels or contrarian. They completely dismissed the traditions and values of the previous generation and established their own language, terms, group think. They were the first generation to do so. It's probably best to discuss as a separate topic, but while the Hippies had little or no power, it is that group think that has infiltrated almost every aspect of our society that holds power or controls the public message. It has evolved into the most destructive group think that is used to control us now.

 

[forkup]

Also I provided definitions for group think in the OP. Did you miss that?

I don't know in how many different ways you will try to dodge my question before you realize that you can't convince me you're arguing in good faith until you answer it.

You provided several definitions. One of which was so on the nose I challenged you directly on it too apply to yourself.

Again. If you're serious about wanting an actual debate you personally need to apply some measure of debating rules on yourself. Dodging questions, because you don't like the answer is the exact opposite.

This has been my main premise throughout this OP. And it's a premise you're validating as we speak.

 

[Blues Man]

Yes but the Hippies were not just rebels or contrarian. They completely dismissed the traditions and values of the previous generation and established their own language, terms, group think. They were the first generation to do so. It's probably best to discuss as a separate topic, but while the Hippies had little or no power, it is that group think that has infiltrated almost every aspect of our society that holds power or controls the public message. It has evolved into the most destructive group think that is used to control us now.

They were counterculture.

And they had a profound effect on society and actually changed the mores of the entire country