Should Islamic Marriages be recognized in the US?

[Stash]

is there a christian definition of rape in a marriage? i don't believe there is. i do believe that wives are supposed to be submissive to their husbands, which means there would be no rape in a christian marriage either.

legally is something completely different.

No, the Koran permits forced sex in marriage, even Sunni Man has acknowledge this with quotes from the Koran. Show me some quotes from the Bible that permit forced sex in marriage.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

You want to quote this verse? What about the verse that comes next.

Col 3: 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Does that sound like Paul is saying to rape them?

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)


Then this always starts the debate as to whether or not christians are supposed to take the old testament seriously.

Actually this says nothing about raping a wife. It makes a rapist obligated to his victim for life since he is never able to end the marriage. It seems cruel that the woman must put up with her rapist, but by ancient standards it is significantly pro-victim in that the rapist is made to support his victim and whatever child the rape may have produced.

 

[Dr.Drock]

No, the Koran permits forced sex in marriage, even Sunni Man has acknowledge this with quotes from the Koran. Show me some quotes from the Bible that permit forced sex in marriage.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

You want to quote this verse? What about the verse that comes next.

Col 3: 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Does that sound like Paul is saying to rape them?

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)


Then this always starts the debate as to whether or not christians are supposed to take the old testament seriously.

Actually this says nothing about raping a wife. It makes a rapist obligated to his victim for life since he is never able to end the marriage. It seems cruel that the woman must put up with her rapist, but by ancient standards it is significantly pro-victim in that the rapist is made to support his victim and whatever child the rape may have produced.

True, but it makes a rape victim into the wife of her rapist, and no there's nothing pro-victim about it. Why would a rape victim want want her rapist to attempt (and for a lifetime no less) to help her?

So yeah it's not rape while being married, but it still sounds like to me that not much is put into the feelings of the rape victim in either religion.

 

[Stash]

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)


Then this always starts the debate as to whether or not christians are supposed to take the old testament seriously.

Actually this says nothing about raping a wife. It makes a rapist obligated to his victim for life since he is never able to end the marriage. It seems cruel that the woman must put up with her rapist, but by ancient standards it is significantly pro-victim in that the rapist is made to support his victim and whatever child the rape may have produced.

True, but it makes a rape victim into the wife of her rapist, and no there's nothing pro-victim about it. Why would a rape victim want want her rapist to attempt (and for a lifetime no less) to help her?

So yeah it's not rape while being married, but it still sounds like to me that not much is put into the feelings of the rape victim in either religion.

Yes, perhaps so, but you have to consider the time this was written. Keep in mind that at this time the "soiled" woman would have a harder time getting married if she is with child. I would hope that the woman could use this obligation owed to her in order to negotiate a deal where she doesn’t have to see the b*stard. This passage is about punishment and therefore acknowledgement that forced sex by men against women is wrong, so this certainly doesn’t support the idea that the husband can force the wife to have sex.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Actually this says nothing about raping a wife. It makes a rapist obligated to his victim for life since he is never able to end the marriage. It seems cruel that the woman must put up with her rapist, but by ancient standards it is significantly pro-victim in that the rapist is made to support his victim and whatever child the rape may have produced.

True, but it makes a rape victim into the wife of her rapist, and no there's nothing pro-victim about it. Why would a rape victim want want her rapist to attempt (and for a lifetime no less) to help her?

So yeah it's not rape while being married, but it still sounds like to me that not much is put into the feelings of the rape victim in either religion.

Yes, perhaps so, but you have to consider the time this was written. Keep in mind that at this time the "soiled" woman would have a harder time getting married if she is with child. I would hope that the woman could use this obligation owed to her in order to negotiate a deal where she doesn’t have to see the b*stard. This passage is about punishment and therefore acknowledgement that forced sex by men against women is wrong, so this certainly doesn’t support the idea that the husband can force the wife to have sex.

But it also says that a guy can get himself a wife just by raping her, rather than winning her over with love and compassion etc.

Either way, that passage along with the principle that Sunni is telling me about, are both disgusting and revolting to me.

 

[High_Gravity]

If a woman isn't in the mood to have sex, she shouldn't have to, why is that so hard for some people?

 

[Dr.Drock]

If a woman isn't in the mood to have sex, she shouldn't have to, why is that so hard for some people?

That's what I'm trying to figure out, some of these people should maybe change their minds to being thankful that god made us into one of those rare species capable of masturbating.

 

[High_Gravity]

If a woman isn't in the mood to have sex, she shouldn't have to, why is that so hard for some people?

That's what I'm trying to figure out, some of these people should maybe change their minds to being thankful that god made us into one of those rare species capable of masturbating.

A woman shouldn't have to drop her panties and spread em whenever you say the word go, women are human beings with feelings, some posters talk about them as if they are a pet or a companion of some kind.

 

[ogibillm]

Yes, perhaps so, but you have to consider the time this was written. Keep in mind that at this time the "soiled" woman would have a harder time getting married if she is with child. I would hope that the woman could use this obligation owed to her in order to negotiate a deal where she doesn’t have to see the b*stard. This passage is about punishment and therefore acknowledgement that forced sex by men against women is wrong, so this certainly doesn’t support the idea that the husband can force the wife to have sex.

it also doesn't say that a wife can refuse her husband. and if a wife is to submit to her husband sex between them would never be rape - and that sounds an awful lot like what sunni said.

 

[Stash]

True, but it makes a rape victim into the wife of her rapist, and no there's nothing pro-victim about it. Why would a rape victim want want her rapist to attempt (and for a lifetime no less) to help her?

So yeah it's not rape while being married, but it still sounds like to me that not much is put into the feelings of the rape victim in either religion.

Yes, perhaps so, but you have to consider the time this was written. Keep in mind that at this time the "soiled" woman would have a harder time getting married if she is with child. I would hope that the woman could use this obligation owed to her in order to negotiate a deal where she doesn’t have to see the b*stard. This passage is about punishment and therefore acknowledgement that forced sex by men against women is wrong, so this certainly doesn’t support the idea that the husband can force the wife to have sex.

But it also says that a guy can get himself a wife just by raping her, rather than winning her over with love and compassion etc.

Either way, that passage along with the principle that Sunni is telling me about, are both disgusting and revolting to me.

It doesn’t “say that” in the sense that that is not the intent of this rule. Granted a man may use this rule to gain a wife through rape, but what if the girl’s family doesn’t like it and they kill the guy? I don’t know if raping a woman was a common way to get a wife in ancient Israel; the man would be taking a chance.

In any case this rule is not used any more in Judiasm or Christianity. Today we have prisons and public assistance programs which are a much better way to punish the rapist and help the victim.

The Koran repeatedly gives the husband ownership of the wife’s body, and she must have sex with him whenever he wants it. This is still common in Islam.

 

[Dr.Drock]

If a woman isn't in the mood to have sex, she shouldn't have to, why is that so hard for some people?

That's what I'm trying to figure out, some of these people should maybe change their minds to being thankful that god made us into one of those rare species capable of masturbating.

A woman shouldn't have to drop her panties and spread em whenever you say the word go, women are human beings with feelings, some posters talk about them as if they are a pet or a companion of some kind.

Yep, and if Rover or Fido bites a dude on the dingy and his lady wants it he shouldn't be forced to stick his scratched up pole in her.

Seems like pretty low level, basic common sense type of morals to me.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Yes, perhaps so, but you have to consider the time this was written. Keep in mind that at this time the "soiled" woman would have a harder time getting married if she is with child. I would hope that the woman could use this obligation owed to her in order to negotiate a deal where she doesn’t have to see the b*stard. This passage is about punishment and therefore acknowledgement that forced sex by men against women is wrong, so this certainly doesn’t support the idea that the husband can force the wife to have sex.

But it also says that a guy can get himself a wife just by raping her, rather than winning her over with love and compassion etc.

Either way, that passage along with the principle that Sunni is telling me about, are both disgusting and revolting to me.

It doesn’t “say that” in the sense that that is not the intent of this rule. Granted a man may use this rule to gain a wife through rape, but what if the girl’s family doesn’t like it and they kill the guy? I don’t know if raping a woman was a common way to get a wife in ancient Israel; the man would be taking a chance.

In any case this rule is not used any more in Judiasm or Christianity. Today we have prisons and public assistance programs which are a much better way to punish the rapist and help the victim.

The Koran repeatedly gives the husband ownership of the wife’s body, and she must have sex with him whenever he wants it. This is still common in Islam.

I'm not concerned with the intent of the rule, the application of the rule means a rapist can choose any woman he wants to be his wife by simply raping her. There's no way to spin around it.

It all depends what rules you take the most seriously, rules of your religion (which I have none) or rules of your government, as these things don't always go together.

 

[Stash]

The OP is about Islamic marriage, one of the problems of which is male dominance. Naturally, it doesn’t take long for it to be declared that Christianity is just as bad…there’s no way to avoid this, this is an involuntary reflex on the part of some people. As soon as someone says something critical of Islam, Christianity is always declared to be just as bad, and it really doesn’t matter what evidence is present or what arguments are made. It is an involuntary subconscious reaction on the part of some people to shift the blame to Christianity and so there is no point in using common sense or evidence to appeal to the conscience mind.

But okay I’ll give it another shot:

On the one hand:

The Koran specifically tells men that they have a right to sex with their wives whenever they want it. To this day there has been no reformation and Muslims don’t deny this.

On the other hand:

The Bible had rules against rape, but in order to help rape victims at a time when there was no prisons or welfare programs, the rapist was given the responsibility to provide for the woman if there was no one to provide for her. (If she had someone to provide for her, the rapist was killed). Okay so it’s not the perfect way to help the rape victim, but it no longer applies, and by this I mean religious Christians and Jews today do not want this rule applied because they understand that today we can enforce the spirit of this rule much better through a modern criminal justice system.

Are these two religions really the same on the issue of marital rape?

The Bible does have rules against rape, it tells husbands to love their wives and it tells us to treat others how we would like to be treated.

 

[Sunni Man]

So called "marital rape" is a relatively new phenomena in Western law.

Common sense will tell you that the whole concept is absurd.

But liberal judges and progressiive law makers have codified it in order to appease the radical feminist.

Just one more piece of evidence of Western society free fall into collaspe.

 

[High_Gravity]

So called "marital rape" is a relatively new phenomena in Western law.

Common sense will tell you that the whole concept is absurd.

But liberal judges and progressiive law makers have codified it in order to appease the radical feminist.

Just one more piece of evidence of Western society free fall into collaspe.

So its not possible for a husband to rape his wife?

 

[Caroljo]

Agam, there is no such thing as rape between a husband and wife in Islam.

So I take that as "yes this is ok."
.

Even the Bible says: " Wives submit to your husband and all things"

( Except modern Christians like to throw that verse out)

I doubt he meant rape! Here's the whole passage...read it!

Ephesians 5
Living in the Light 1 Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children. 2 Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us[a] and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God.
3 Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. 4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. 5 You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.

6 Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him. 7 Don’t participate in the things these people do. 8 For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light! 9 For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true.

10 Carefully determine what pleases the Lord. 11 Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them. 12 It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. 13 But their evil intentions will be exposed when the light shines on them, 14 for the light makes everything visible. This is why it is said,

“Awake, O sleeper,
rise up from the dead,
and Christ will give you light.”

Living by the Spirit’s Power
15 So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise. 16 Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. 17 Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. 20 And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Spirit-Guided Relationships: Wives and Husbands
21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church. 24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything. 25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body.

31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.”[c] 32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. 33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


I don't see where God says raping your wife is ok....in fact, he tells husband to love their wives as they love their own bodies. So does this mean YOU would like to be raped????

 

[Sunni Man]

So called "marital rape" is a relatively new phenomena in Western law.

Common sense will tell you that the whole concept is absurd.

But liberal judges and progressiive law makers have codified it in order to appease the radical feminist.

Just one more piece of evidence of Western society free fall into collaspe.

So its not possible for a husband to rape his wife?

If the man has not been served with divorce papers or there is no restraining order against him.

Then the idea of marital rape is absurd.

 

[High_Gravity]

So called "marital rape" is a relatively new phenomena in Western law.

Common sense will tell you that the whole concept is absurd.

But liberal judges and progressiive law makers have codified it in order to appease the radical feminist.

Just one more piece of evidence of Western society free fall into collaspe.

So its not possible for a husband to rape his wife?

If the man has not been served with divorce papers or there is no restraining order against him.

Then the idea of marital rape is absurd.

So the man has to be served with divorce papers otherwise it is not possible to rape his wife?

 

[Dr.Drock]

So its not possible for a husband to rape his wife?

If the man has not been served with divorce papers or there is no restraining order against him.

Then the idea of marital rape is absurd.

So the man has to be served with divorce papers otherwise it is not possible to rape his wife?

Yeah it takes legal papers for this event to happen

Husband: "Let's have sex"

Wife: "No"

Husband: "Too bad, we're doing it anyway." (grabs her, holds her down, forces himself into her)

Don't you see where the papers came into play?

 

[High_Gravity]

If the man has not been served with divorce papers or there is no restraining order against him.

Then the idea of marital rape is absurd.

So the man has to be served with divorce papers otherwise it is not possible to rape his wife?

Yeah it takes legal papers for this event to happen

Husband: "Let's have sex"

Wife: "No"

Husband: "Too bad, we're doing it anyway." (grabs her, holds her down, forces himself into her)

Don't you see where the papers came into play?

I always thought if a woman says no to sex, and you take it anyways, thats considered rape, regardless if you are married or not. Didn't know that made a difference.

 

[Dr.Drock]

So the man has to be served with divorce papers otherwise it is not possible to rape his wife?

Yeah it takes legal papers for this event to happen

Husband: "Let's have sex"

Wife: "No"

Husband: "Too bad, we're doing it anyway." (grabs her, holds her down, forces himself into her)

Don't you see where the papers came into play?

I always thought if a woman says no to sex, and you take it anyways, thats considered rape, regardless if you are married or not. Didn't know that made a difference.

Thankfully there isn't one in american law.

But as we're seeing here, forcing a woman to have sex with you isn't a problem with the most morally radical types in our country.