Should he stay or should he go.

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by st8_o_mind, May 19, 2004.

  1. st8_o_mind
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    BELOW IS FROM AN E-MAIL I RECEIVED THAT CALLS FOR RUMSFELD RESIGNATION. MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS TO AVOID CONFUSION.

    iN ADDITION TO THE SCANDAL AT THE PRISON, IT IS BECOMMING INCREASING CLEAR THAT THE POST-WAR OCCUPLATION OF IRAQ WAS POORLY PLANNED AND POORLY IMPLEMENTED. THE OCCUPATION IS ON THE VERGE OF FAILURE. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? ULTIMATELY, BUSH IS RESPONSIBLE, AND THE VOTERS WILL HAVE THEIR SAY IN NOVEMBER. IN THE MEANTIME, MANY ARE NOW CALLING FROM RUMMY'S RESIGNATION. SHOULD HE BE FIRED AS AN INCOMPETENT BAFOON OR RETAINED AS A LOYAL AIDE TO THE PRESIDENT?


    As America learns more about the prisoner abuse scandal, it's becoming clear that the path to the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib prison began at Donald Rumsfeld's office in the Pentagon. According to an article in the New Yorker magazine, a policy put in place by Secretary Rumsfeld "encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq." [1]

    Despite this horrible scandal and the cascading failures of U.S.
    military policy in Iraq, President Bush says that Rumsfeld is doing "a superb job."



    High-level officials in the Pentagon were sent from Guantanamo Bay to Iraq to implement the more aggressive policies, and it appears that command of the prison was placed in the hands of military intelligence officers. Techniques that had been approved only for suspected al-Qaeda terrorists were suddenly applied to Iraqi prisoners ((up to 90% of whom were mistakenly detained, according to the Red Cross) ) [2]. EMPHASIS ADDED.


    [1] http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040524fa_fact
    THE GRAY ZONE, How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.
    Seymour M. Hersh, 5/24/2004, New Yorker


    [2] Red Cross: Iraq Abuse Widespread, Routine
    Alexander G. Higgins, 5/10/04. For AP story on this report, see:
    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040511/D82G3F9G1.html
    _______________
     
  2. Zhukov
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    I'm finally prepared to say it. I don't care what they did to those prisoners, except insofar as it hinders our military's efforts to safely conduct this police action. This obsession with Abu Ghraib is out of control. One person has already been sentenced to prison, and anyone else found responsible will be too.

    Sec. Rumsfeld is a patriot, an excellent Sec. of Def., and should be kept on as long as he is willing to serve.
     
  3. st8_o_mind
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    Viet Nam was called a "police action," not Iraq.

    With regard to your comments (1) I remind you of the comments of John McCain on the subject. He pointed out that the Geneva Convention and the Convention on Torture were put in place to protect Americans.

    (2) Torture is vile and immoral. It may be okay with you, but not with me. This is not my America. We're supposed to be better than the terrorists.

    (3) Ninty-nine percent of US soldiers in the field are serving with dignity and honor. The pigs in the prison (and those who gave them their orders) have smeared the honor and reputation of the soldiers who are serving with distinction.

    (4) Anger over these abuses puts US military and civilian personnell in Iraq at far greater risk.

    (5) What they did undermines the mission in Iraq and will likely increase the very thing we are supposed to be fighting -- terrorism.
     
  4. rtwngAvngr
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    Anyone who is a terrorist. ie not part of the official Iraqi Army, is not subject to geneva convention protections.
     
  5. st8_o_mind
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    Techniques that had been approved only for suspected al-Qaeda terrorists were suddenly applied to Iraqi prisoners ((up to 90% of whom were mistakenly detained, according to the Red Cross) )

    It seems you are at least 90% wrong.
     
  6. rtwngAvngr
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    It seems your st8_o_mind is degraded.

    Shut up with this stupid story. This was not even real torture. It was ok to show on primetime tv. Shut up about it. Why don't you focus on helping the nation instead of bringing down our president during war. You're a traitor, in your heart, where it matters most.
     
  7. Zhukov
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    I am calling it a police action because the war is over and we are securing the peace until power is turned over.

    And John McCain is an authority on how well Americans were protected under it.

    I don't consider it torture, and if you equate this with the behavior of terrorists then you are a moral fool.

    They have smeared their own honor, and no one else's.

    Has it? Most Iraqi's don't seem too concerned with our treatment of the people responsible for either abusing or terrorizing them. The terrorists need no additional impetus.

    Maybe, maybe not. I think the liberal media's obsession, and assinine calls for the Defense Secretary's resignation are more likely to embolden terrorists than these stupid pictures will.

    What's more, how much respect for our soldiers do you show by supporting the movement for the resignation of the man the majority of them hold in great esteem and have a great deal of confidence in?
     
  8. DKSuddeth
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    but they are subject to basic human rights, are they not? well, maybe not the terrorists, but the ones who aren't terrorists deserve their human rights.
     
  9. DKSuddeth
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    In case you don't remember it, the vietnamese ALSO declared that americans weren't protected under the geneva convention because they WEREN'T POW's......much like we've done with gitmo.

    the intentional infliction of physical or mental pain/anguish is torture


    but as american soldiers they are representatives of america to the world.


    this is correct
     
  10. Zhukov
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    I trust our soldiers won't treat the prisoners at Gitmo with even close to the level of brutality that the North Vietnamese showed us, or that terrorists would show a captured U.S. soldier.

    We haven't circumvented the Geneva Conventions because we wish to sadisitically beat people for no reason and you know it.

    I take a much more limited view of what is torture, what is permisible to gain information and save lives, and what is just stupid.

    These acts were just stupid.

    If the rest of the world chooses to believe that is how all American's are, so be it. I couldn't care less what the world thinks about this country. They are determined to hate us because we have taken a moral stand, and they find it insulting. It's far easier to take no stand at all than to risk being called a hypocrite for the misdeeds of a few.

    We are the world's moral superior, and there isn't anything we can do placate them. I don't see that we should even try. Lead by example is what I say, and when people in our country commit acts we find reprehensible, we punish them.

    Let the world think what it will. The world is an awful place. I know these few soldiers don't represent all our soldiers, and that's enough for me.
     

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