Should a Jewish Bakery Have the Right to Deny...

[dblack]

If a Christian business person was so genuinely devout in his religious belief that doing business with a gay person was absolutely forbidden by his faith,

he wouldn't do any business with anyone that he could not determine with reasonable certainty was not gay.

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

Of course. Majority rules! Everything. Even our personal preferences. Nice.

 

[The Rabbi]

If a Christian business person was so genuinely devout in his religious belief that doing business with a gay person was absolutely forbidden by his faith,

he wouldn't do any business with anyone that he could not determine with reasonable certainty was not gay.

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

WHo is this "Us"? You mean the people of AZ? I believe they have spoken.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

Of course. Majority rules! Everything. Even our personal preferences. Nice.

That's not true either. Minorities have to be protected from the majority as well, as in this case where lots of people hate gays.

And my preference might be to drink and drive, but I can't. Know why? Because WE decided that is a bad idea, just like this law.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

WHo is this "Us"? You mean the people of AZ? I believe they have spoken.

No, they haven't, but their Reps have. And it wouldn't matter anyway if the courts found issues with Equal Protection. Just because Mississippi wants its slaves back doesn't mean it's gonna happen, even if the majority vote for it.

 

[dblack]

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

Of course. Majority rules! Everything. Even our personal preferences. Nice.

That's not true either. Minorities have to be protected from the majority as well, as in this case where lots of people hate gays.

And my preference might be to drink and drive, but I can't. Know why? Because WE decided that is a bad idea, just like this law.

Who decides which minority preferences deserve protection, and which don't. Clearly, you aren't concerned about the minority of people who don't want to do business with gays.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's up to Us actually. We set the rules businesses have to follow. We set some for churches as well.

WHo is this "Us"? You mean the people of AZ? I believe they have spoken.

No, they haven't, but their Reps have. And it wouldn't matter anyway if the courts found issues with Equal Protection. Just because Mississippi wants its slaves back doesn't mean it's gonna happen, even if the majority vote for it.

Oh OK. So it's "Us" meaning people who agree with your views. Got it.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Clearly, you aren't concerned about the minority of people who don't want to do business with gays.

You're correct, in business I'm not. If they want to attend the No Gays First Baptist Church of Mississippi, drive safe.

As for who decides, we call that Society and we make these things called Laws.

 

[dblack]

Clearly, you aren't concerned about the minority of people who don't want to do business with gays.

You're correct, in business I'm not. If they want to attend the No Gays First Baptist Church of Mississippi, drive safe.

As for who decides, we call that Society and we make these things called Laws.

So, we're back to majority rules on matters of personal conscience. Did you intend to make a circular argument?

 

[NYcarbineer]

If a Christian business person was so genuinely devout in his religious belief that doing business with a gay person was absolutely forbidden by his faith,

he wouldn't do any business with anyone that he could not determine with reasonable certainty was not gay.

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

I guess...

if you're going to let every individual have his own set of laws.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

WHo is this "Us"? You mean the people of AZ? I believe they have spoken.

No, they haven't, but their Reps have. And it wouldn't matter anyway if the courts found issues with Equal Protection. Just because Mississippi wants its slaves back doesn't mean it's gonna happen, even if the majority vote for it.

Oh OK. So it's "Us" meaning people who agree with your views. Got it.

It is in this case. The law is on my side because we decide decades ago that this nonsense was just that. I don't agree with lots of laws. It's still the law, and I follow it. They should do the same and bake the damn cake.

 

[dblack]

If a Christian business person was so genuinely devout in his religious belief that doing business with a gay person was absolutely forbidden by his faith,

he wouldn't do any business with anyone that he could not determine with reasonable certainty was not gay.

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

I guess...

if you're going to let every individual have his own set of laws.

When it comes to deciding who I hang out with? Who I work for? Who I have sex with? Yeah... each of us should have our own set of laws. The fact that some of you have a problem with that, is quite creepy.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Clearly, you aren't concerned about the minority of people who don't want to do business with gays.

You're correct, in business I'm not. If they want to attend the No Gays First Baptist Church of Mississippi, drive safe.

As for who decides, we call that Society and we make these things called Laws.

So, we're back to majority rules on matters of personal conscience. Did you intend to make a circular argument?

The majority and the minority always have rights in conflict. Did they not teach you that? And just because I feel that speed limits are unfair doesn't mean I can ignore them and get away with it. Your morality is yours, our morality is ours. When you are in the marketplace, ours, society's, wins. In church yours will likely, but not always, prevail. Got it?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Clearly, you aren't concerned about the minority of people who don't want to do business with gays.

You're correct, in business I'm not. If they want to attend the No Gays First Baptist Church of Mississippi, drive safe.

As for who decides, we call that Society and we make these things called Laws.

So, we're back to majority rules on matters of personal conscience. Did you intend to make a circular argument?

There has to be a final authority somewhere in the system. Under the Constitution, the ultimate authority is the supermajority of Congress and the states that can amend the Constitution, and thus determine what is in it or not.

The next authority down is the Supreme Court, which has the power to decide what laws can or cannot stand based on whether the court believes they comply with the Constitution.

The Constitution protects minorities, in various ways, against various majorities.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I guess that's up to him. Or should it be up to you?

I guess...

if you're going to let every individual have his own set of laws.

When it comes to deciding who I hang out with? Who I work for? Who I have sex with? Yeah... each of us should have our own set of laws. The fact that some of you have a problem with that, is quite creepy.

Commerce is not hanging out with someone.

 

[dblack]

The Constitution protects minorities, in various ways, against various majorities.

Right, and one way it does that is by protecting freedom of association - which this whole body of legal reasoning violates.

 

[dblack]

I guess...

if you're going to let every individual have his own set of laws.

When it comes to deciding who I hang out with? Who I work for? Who I have sex with? Yeah... each of us should have our own set of laws. The fact that some of you have a problem with that, is quite creepy.

Commerce is not hanging out with someone.

How is it not?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well, since we are talking about Jews here,

those of you who are arguing for the right to do or not do business with anyone you please are effectively saying that for all the terrible wrongs the Nazis committed,

one thing they got right was to allow anti-Semitism in business.

 

[dblack]

You're correct, in business I'm not. If they want to attend the No Gays First Baptist Church of Mississippi, drive safe.

As for who decides, we call that Society and we make these things called Laws.

So, we're back to majority rules on matters of personal conscience. Did you intend to make a circular argument?

The majority and the minority always have rights in conflict. Did they not teach you that? And just because I feel that speed limits are unfair doesn't mean I can ignore them and get away with it. Your morality is yours, our morality is ours. When you are in the marketplace, ours, society's, wins. In church yours will likely, but not always, prevail. Got it?

I guess really the conceit of the position, the idea we forfeit individual rights when in 'the marketplace'.

 

[Wake]

"We have the right to refuse service to anyone".

I stand by that. When I had my two shops...I had that sign on the wall. But since I am known for my "flair", I added two words. Mine said "We have the right to refuse service to anyone. Tuff Patooties".

Nobody complained.

Was going to post my general thoughts, but Gracie did it already.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Constitution protects minorities, in various ways, against various majorities.

Right, and one way it does that is by protecting freedom of association - which this whole body of legal reasoning violates.

You are arguing that virtually all prohibitions of segregation, race discrimination, sex discrimination, and the like have been wrongly upheld by the Supreme Court.

I don't think there's much agreement with that position.