Secession

[Yurt]

a discussion about a very real political and historical issue in america

Although the question is moot, as indicated by the Supreme Court Decison re: Texas, the original entry of Texas into the union is the reason that the question arose.

The difference between Texas' admission and other states is that it was based not the usual course of admission, which is treaty, (a treaty meant two-thirds concurrence by the Senate, and this had resulted in a stalemate due to opposition of abolitionists), but by joint legislative resolution, which entailed a simple majority.

Thus, some have suggested that Texas' admission was unconstitutional. This was adjudicated to be not the case.

I recommend the book "Polk," by Walter Borneman, which covers this thoroughly.

while the question may be legally moot, it is not realistically moot. and we both know the scotus has overturned itself....

secession could happen and most likely a war would ensue....

 

[Yurt]

The question is not would secession be 'legal'...

The real question is: Would any American leader have the stones to order the military to shoot the rebels?

Alaska has the best shot at leading the way... unfair taxes and unreasonable demands, with no resources to implement them, in the vein of 'No Child Left Behind' or unfunded health-care entitlements would be the most likely catalyst.

-Joe

i agree. alaska controls a healthy amount of nukes...and oil

 

[KittenKoder]

a discussion about a very real political and historical issue in america

Although the question is moot, as indicated by the Supreme Court Decison re: Texas, the original entry of Texas into the union is the reason that the question arose.

The difference between Texas' admission and other states is that it was based not the usual course of admission, which is treaty, (a treaty meant two-thirds concurrence by the Senate, and this had resulted in a stalemate due to opposition of abolitionists), but by joint legislative resolution, which entailed a simple majority.

Thus, some have suggested that Texas' admission was unconstitutional. This was adjudicated to be not the case.

I recommend the book "Polk," by Walter Borneman, which covers this thoroughly.

while the question may be legally moot, it is not realistically moot. and we both know the scotus has overturned itself....

secession could happen and most likely a war would ensue....

Doubt it, why would the federal government waste the money over a couple of states seceding, and if all the states did then the federal would have no power to stop it. Not to mention the bulk of our military is already in use and would require too much time to recall, there wouldn't be a war no matter how you look at it.

 

[Peejay]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

 

[KittenKoder]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

Um ... yeah ... all the American countries (Canada, US, and Mexico) were founded by seceding from a larger and oppressive government that did not have the peoples interest in mind, thus why it's more American to secede when our federal government does the same thing than to sit back and take it. You know too little about the American ideal.

 

[Yurt]

Although the question is moot, as indicated by the Supreme Court Decison re: Texas, the original entry of Texas into the union is the reason that the question arose.

The difference between Texas' admission and other states is that it was based not the usual course of admission, which is treaty, (a treaty meant two-thirds concurrence by the Senate, and this had resulted in a stalemate due to opposition of abolitionists), but by joint legislative resolution, which entailed a simple majority.

Thus, some have suggested that Texas' admission was unconstitutional. This was adjudicated to be not the case.

I recommend the book "Polk," by Walter Borneman, which covers this thoroughly.

while the question may be legally moot, it is not realistically moot. and we both know the scotus has overturned itself....

secession could happen and most likely a war would ensue....

Doubt it, why would the federal government waste the money over a couple of states seceding, and if all the states did then the federal would have no power to stop it. Not to mention the bulk of our military is already in use and would require too much time to recall, there wouldn't be a war no matter how you look at it.

"waste" money? the federal government gets money from the states...income taxes...and other federal taxes....

the odds of all the states seceding at once is nill.... all 50 states are going to decide to create their own nation, at one time.....

 

[Yurt]

i see there are 5: constitution allows...

where in the constitution is that? and, as has been posted, how does that mesh with the scotus....

 

[Peejay]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

Um ... yeah ... all the American countries (Canada, US, and Mexico) were founded by seceding from a larger and oppressive government that did not have the peoples interest in mind, thus why it's more American to secede when our federal government does the same thing than to sit back and take it. You know too little about the American ideal.

By your logic, the good English thing to was to revolt? Right? The good Spanish thing to do?

Nope. You can cry for secession from America all day. Makes you unAmerican. You see, if you don't like what America has become, the direction that the democratic majority has taken us, you are unAmerican. You certainly can take whatever ideals you want and try to go your own way....but it won't be the American way. It will be the unAmerican way. Because you see, this is America. If you don't like what America stands for here and now, don't like what the democracy has become, you are unAmerican. We arrived here by the American ideal. We voted for our people. That's the American way. Don't like it? You're unAmerican. Dissent, is American. Revolt is treason.

 

[Bullypulpit]

We would, of course, be better off to ship the hard-core right wing nuts to Texas and building a border wall around it. It may be too small for a nation, but its certainly big enough for an insane asylum.

 

[KittenKoder]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

Um ... yeah ... all the American countries (Canada, US, and Mexico) were founded by seceding from a larger and oppressive government that did not have the peoples interest in mind, thus why it's more American to secede when our federal government does the same thing than to sit back and take it. You know too little about the American ideal.

By your logic, the good English thing to was to revolt? Right? The good Spanish thing to do?

Nope. You can cry for secession from America all day. Makes you unAmerican. You see, if you don't like what America has become, the direction that the democratic majority has taken us, you are unAmerican. You certainly can take whatever ideals you want and try to go your own way....but it won't be the American way. It will be the unAmerican way. Because you see, this is America. If you don't like what America stands for here and now, don't like what the democracy has become, you are unAmerican. We arrived here by the American ideal. We voted for our people. That's the American way. Don't like it? You're unAmerican. Dissent, is American. Revolt is treason.

First, America is actually two continents, not a country, the US is the country we are focusing on, so there you already demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, secession is "getting out of the country because the majority in that area is no longer pleased with it", basically they are using Democracy at it's most pure form, they are agreeing. Also, if you are an Obama supporter who is all too happy with him, you really are far from your own leaders ideals, he would plead and beg for them not to secede but I doubt even he would call them unamerican, treasonous, or anything else you have used here. No, the one thing that Obama has going for him is that he is a diplomatic leader (thus why he has the silver tongue) and would likely just support their right to do so. Learn your law, your countries history, the continents history, and while you're at it toss in a bit of partisan history.

 

[xotoxi]

The fact is, NO language in the US Constitution precludes states leaving as freely as the they entered.

I have a question that maybe we can discuss...

New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Virginia, etc, were all independently functioning colonies, who came together and created the United States. They entered the Union freely.

Texas did as well, as they were an independent republic, and freely joined the union.

But what about Louisiana and Alaska. They were purchases of land by the federal government. Now I don't know enough specifics about history, but I believe that territories were created which became states. However, these states didn't have the option to NOT join the union...or did they?

Therefore, if the above is true, could it be inferred that some states were independent entites that freely joined the union, while other states were property of the federal government, and had no choice in joining the union?

 

[Peejay]

Um ... yeah ... all the American countries (Canada, US, and Mexico) were founded by seceding from a larger and oppressive government that did not have the peoples interest in mind, thus why it's more American to secede when our federal government does the same thing than to sit back and take it. You know too little about the American ideal.

By your logic, the good English thing to was to revolt? Right? The good Spanish thing to do?

Nope. You can cry for secession from America all day. Makes you unAmerican. You see, if you don't like what America has become, the direction that the democratic majority has taken us, you are unAmerican. You certainly can take whatever ideals you want and try to go your own way....but it won't be the American way. It will be the unAmerican way. Because you see, this is America. If you don't like what America stands for here and now, don't like what the democracy has become, you are unAmerican. We arrived here by the American ideal. We voted for our people. That's the American way. Don't like it? You're unAmerican. Dissent, is American. Revolt is treason.

First, America is actually two continents, not a country, the US is the country we are focusing on, so there you already demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, secession is "getting out of the country because the majority in that area is no longer pleased with it", basically they are using Democracy at it's most pure form, they are agreeing. Also, if you are an Obama supporter who is all too happy with him, you really are far from your own leaders ideals, he would plead and beg for them not to secede but I doubt even he would call them unamerican, treasonous, or anything else you have used here. No, the one thing that Obama has going for him is that he is a diplomatic leader (thus why he has the silver tongue) and would likely just support their right to do so. Learn your law, your countries history, the continents history, and while you're at it toss in a bit of partisan history.

Why my goodness....That was so unNorthAmerican of me.

Let me correct, you are unUnitedStatesofAmerican. Yeah....that's how we say it.

I for one, get so confused when people from Canada call themselves "Americans". And when the people from Mexico, on the continent, call themselves "American", yeah, that's confusing. I can see your why your wheels would spin on that.

All these people calling themsleves Americans. They should maybe go with Mexican, Canadian or Colombian to clarify. I know everyone here tells customs that they are United States of American. So they don't look dumb.

You are a smart little kitty.

 

[AVG-JOE]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

That, in my humble opinion, is bullshit.

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

I truly hope that open rebellion and infrastructure destruction is not going to be required to bitch-slap the greed out of the current funneling of the planets resources in to the hands of the few by the power behind Western Civilization, but the right of the people to use whatever means necessary to proclaim their freedom is only as illegal as the powerful can back up their list of rules.

-Joe

 

[Peejay]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

That, in my humble opinion, is bullshit.

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

I truly hope that open rebellion and infrastructure destruction is not going to be required to bitch-slap the greed out of the current funneling of the planets resources in to the hands of the few by the power behind Western Civilization, but the right of the people to use whatever means necessary to proclaim their freedom is only as illegal as the powerful can back up their list of rules.

-Joe

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

 

[American Horse]

The fact is, NO language in the US Constitution precludes states leaving as freely as the they entered.

I have a question that maybe we can discuss...

New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Virginia, etc, were all independently functioning colonies, who came together and created the United States. They entered the Union freely.

Texas did as well, as they were an independent republic, and freely joined the union.

But what about Louisiana and Alaska. They were purchases of land by the federal government. Now I don't know enough specifics about history, but I believe that territories were created which became states. However, these states didn't have the option to NOT join the union...or did they?

Therefore, if the above is true, could it be inferred that some states were independent entites that freely joined the union, while other states were property of the federal government, and had no choice in joining the union?

States which joined from territories, like the N.W. Territory for instance, but others too which were not previously "republics" joined the union by applying or petitioning for statehood. In the earliest cases those from the territories became eligible when their population reached the level or close to the level of a single Congressional District as it applied to the US at the time of their admittance. Statehood was not mandated because they could remain in territorial status; Alaska for instance was an "Incorporated" territory and could've remained an incorporated territory but elected to become a state. "Incorporated" as a territory simply means that it it had previously set up a territorial government under the territorial system of the US.

Here's the Indiana Statehood - Timeline; the territory from which it came at one time included Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Indiana which were peeled off and becoming states in their own turn.

 

[Avatar4321]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

 

[xotoxi]

The fact is, NO language in the US Constitution precludes states leaving as freely as the they entered.

I have a question that maybe we can discuss...

New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Virginia, etc, were all independently functioning colonies, who came together and created the United States. They entered the Union freely.

Texas did as well, as they were an independent republic, and freely joined the union.

But what about Louisiana and Alaska. They were purchases of land by the federal government. Now I don't know enough specifics about history, but I believe that territories were created which became states. However, these states didn't have the option to NOT join the union...or did they?

Therefore, if the above is true, could it be inferred that some states were independent entites that freely joined the union, while other states were property of the federal government, and had no choice in joining the union?

States which joined from territories, like the N.W. Territory for instance, but others too which were not previously "republics" joined the union by applying or petitioning for statehood. In the earliest cases those from the territories became eligible when their population reached the level or close to the level of a single Congressional District as it applied to the US at the time of their admittance. Statehood was not mandated because they could remain in territorial status; Alaska for instance was an "Incorporated" territory and could've remained an incorporated territory but elected to become a state. "Incorporated" as a territory simply means that it it had previously set up a territorial government under the territorial system of the US.

Here's the Indiana Statehood - Timeline; the territory from which it came at one time included Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Indiana which were peeled off and becoming states in their own turn.

So people that lived in those territories had no option but to be a part of the United States of America. They could either remain as a territory controlled by the federal government, or they could become a self-governing state within the United State of America. There was no option of becoming a self-governing body OUTSIDE of the United States of America.

Therefore, Gunny's proposition that state could leave the union as freely as they entered isn't entirely true in all cases. For the states that you had mentioned above, if they were to withdraw from the United States "as freely as they had entered", they would have to revert back to federally governed territories.

 

[Jon]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

 

[KittenKoder]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

I remember that, secession is no different, just more people in one area agreeing to it is all.

 

[Yurt]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

that is not secession.....