Secession

[xotoxi]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

that is not secession.....

Correct. It's emigration.

 

[KittenKoder]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

that is not secession.....

Explain how the impact would differ and how the ideas differ ....

 

[Old Rocks]

unintended consequences of voting a marxist in.. perhaps..

 

[Old Rocks]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

Yes.

 

[KittenKoder]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

Yes.

Really ... why? How?

All the money is gone, our military is across the globe, and Obama isn't making it appealing because he can't stop this ship from sinking. Abandoning ship is usually a good idea when it's going down.

 

[Peejay]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

If any single state did seceed, you'd see an ass whoppin'. Mexico even holds itself together with it's piss ant military. Rebels have taken capitals but it never last. If a state announced this, you'd see choppers and tanks moving so damned fast your head would spin. The governors guts would be all over TV.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

a discussion about a very real political and historical issue in america

The Constitution PROHIBITS unilaterally leaving the Union. It does not prohibit a State or States requesting to leave and the Government agreeing to the request through a vote by all the States.

Another flawed poll.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Secession is absolutely legal. The Texas v. White decision by the Supreme Court has no basis in the Constitution, and therefore, as stated by Thomas Jefferson in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798, is "unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

“The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Mississippi States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Mississippi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John C. Breckinridge, August 12, 1803

Was Thomas Jefferson being anti-American for saying this? Of course not. Self-government is the principle the 13 colonies fought the Revolutionary War over and the basis for our entire form of government.

Furthermore, what is our Declaration of Independence but a declaration of secession from England? Do you honestly believe the founders would have put their hard-fought liberty into the hands of another all-powerful government? And let us not forget that we have a federal government, not a national government.

“The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the right but in the heart. If the day should come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests or kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint.” – John Quincy Adams

Also, let's take a look at the actual Constitution.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." - 10th Amendment, United States Constitution

Secession is no where mentioned in the Constitution. It is not prohibited to the states, and the power to stop secession is not delegated to the United States government. Therefore, we can conclude that the right of secession is reserved to the States.

We can also look at history.

The Constitution required 9 states to ratify it for it to go into effect, when the first 9 states ratified the Constitution the others remained independent nations. They did not get assimilated by default. North Carolina and Rhode Island remained independent for well over a year I believe, before they finally ratified the Constitution.

In 1914 the New England states held what is called the Hartford Convention to discuss whether they should secede from the Union, as they were not pleased with Jefferson or Madison administrations. They ultimately decided not to do so, but nobody questioned their right to secede.

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

 

[editec]

The solution is simple..CONSTIUTIONAL CONVENTION.

 

[xotoxi]

The Constitution required 9 states to ratify it for it to go into effect, when the first 9 states ratified the Constitution the others remained independent nations. They did not get assimilated by default. North Carolina and Rhode Island remained independent for well over a year I believe, before they finally ratified the Constitution.

True...so that applies for the first 13 states, and a few other states that started out as independent entities like Texas and Hawaii,

But what about Oklahoma and Alaska. They were federally-governed, federally-owned territories, not sovereign nations. They had two choices: remain a US-owned territory, or become a state in the United States. They weren't forced to become states, but they also didn't have any choice but be part of the United States.

 

[WillowTree]

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

Fucking bullshit. How many people threatened to move to Canada?

notice how they conveniently leave important defaming details like that out?

 

[editec]

How many people did threaten to leave the USA, exactly?

FWIW, I was tempted, but then I discovered that Canada wouldn't allow me to become a citizen because I'm too old.

 

[AVG-JOE]

it is the epitomy of UnAmerican. We are the United States of America. You believe in the right to seceed? You are unAmerican. Doesn't matter that you are upset with America, don't like where you think we're going, you're unAmerican. How can you get anymore so that wanting to seceed from America? You can protest, you can cry and whine, you can call your mama. You're free. You can do just about anything but if you feel the need to conspire to treason, well, that's death. By firing squad, preferably.

Considering all this lose talk of treason, I would love to see it addressed, right away. Montior these forums and round up the traitors. Maybe send a warning first. If the conspiracy continues with open calls for secession, start taking prisoners. You won't have to kill many.

That, in my humble opinion, is bullshit.

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

I truly hope that open rebellion and infrastructure destruction is not going to be required to bitch-slap the greed out of the current funneling of the planets resources in to the hands of the few by the power behind Western Civilization, but the right of the people to use whatever means necessary to proclaim their freedom is only as illegal as the powerful can back up their list of rules.

-Joe

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

Dude, national, state and county borders are imaginary. Because of the bureaucratic bullshit legacy the British and other Europeans left us with their fairly, but not completely, successful conquest of this planet, a 'nation' is any group of people who are organized enough to map out an imaginary border and defend it well enough to be 'recognized' by all the other groups who've successfully mapped out an imaginary border.

When the cohesion of the group fails or changes, for whatever reason - internal decision or outside force - the border changes. Ask any Serbian who got his neighbors to recognize him as a Kosovoan. Ask any person from the land formerly known as Palestine who still can't get his neighbors to recognize him as an Israeli.

It cracks me up how much people, especially Americans (United Staters?) truly believe that their imaginary borders are carved into the stone... a generation ago, the world map was somewhat different... a mere 5 generations ago, the world map looked considerably different - Why should we expect the map we use to be the same one our great x 5 grandchildren will use?

-Joe

 

[WillowTree]

How many people did threaten to leave the USA, exactly?

FWIW, I was tempted, but then I discovered that Canada wouldn't allow me to become a citizen because I'm too old.

I have no idea about the numbers. that's not important, what''s important is the blatant lie that no one on the left " never didn't want to be Americans"
they clearly stated they would leave,, nay even stood beside the road with I'm sorry signs and I'm leaving signs..

 

[Bullypulpit]

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

-Joe

Your definition of tyranny seems more than a bit loose. The government is not quartering federal troops in private homes...it is not suspending habeas corpus...it is not disappearing citizens from the streets...oh, and the taxation is with representation, and unless you're making $250,000 ayear or more, your taxes aren't going to increase.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

If any single state did seceed, you'd see an ass whoppin'. Mexico even holds itself together with it's piss ant military. Rebels have taken capitals but it never last. If a state announced this, you'd see choppers and tanks moving so damned fast your head would spin. The governors guts would be all over TV.

You are assuming that any given American leader will have the balls to order the military to shoot Americans. Our leaders don't even have the stones to properly make war on a foreign people on the other side of the planet any more, thanks to CNN, et al and public opinion.

Remember the politics that followed Nixon's Kent State mistake? And that was before cable news and the internet.

-Joe

 

[Bullypulpit]

How many people did threaten to leave the USA, exactly?

FWIW, I was tempted, but then I discovered that Canada wouldn't allow me to become a citizen because I'm too old.

I have no idea about the numbers. that's not important, what''s important is the blatant lie that no one on the left " never didn't want to be Americans"
they clearly stated they would leave,, nay even stood beside the road with I'm sorry signs and I'm leaving signs..

Fine...see ya...don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If I can facilitate your departure by buying the ticket...let me know. Being the left-wing, commie bastard I am, I can get great discounts on on-way tickets to North Korea.

 

[jillian]

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

That might be one of the most retarded things I've ever seen written.

kind of like the sociopath who says "I need to kill you to save you"

damn...

 

[jillian]

The solution is simple..CONSTIUTIONAL CONVENTION.

careful what you wish for.... the people who would do it now wouldn't be nearly as smart about it as the guys who did it then.

the "revolution" won't be as romantic as you think.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

-Joe

Your definition of tyranny seems more than a bit loose. The government is not quartering federal troops in private homes...it is not suspending habeas corpus...it is not disappearing citizens from the streets...oh, and the taxation is with representation, and unless you're making $250,000 ayear or more, your taxes aren't going to increase.

Of course it is loose! Do you think for one minute that the people of the 1700's who lived on the land that would become 'Virginia' in the 2000's would put up with the restrictions on freedom that we consider 'business as usual'?

All that "tyranny", especially "tyranny de jour" (tyranny of the day) means, is the point at which enough people agree, right or wrong, as to the identity of their oppressor, and are willing to make the sacrifices required to make a change in how they are governed, be that through election or revolution.

-Joe