Secession

[WillowTree]

How many people did threaten to leave the USA, exactly?

FWIW, I was tempted, but then I discovered that Canada wouldn't allow me to become a citizen because I'm too old.

I have no idea about the numbers. that's not important, what''s important is the blatant lie that no one on the left " never didn't want to be Americans"
they clearly stated they would leave,, nay even stood beside the road with I'm sorry signs and I'm leaving signs..

Fine...see ya...don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If I can facilitate your departure by buying the ticket...let me know. Being the left-wing, commie bastard I am, I can get great discounts on on-way tickets to North Korea.

Thanks, but no thanks,, if and when I decide to move I can do it without your commie bastard help.

 

[editec]

How many people did threaten to leave the USA, exactly?

FWIW, I was tempted, but then I discovered that Canada wouldn't allow me to become a citizen because I'm too old.

I have no idea about the numbers. that's not important,

When one characterizes a huge boyd of people as having generally wanted something, then it falls to those making such a claim to support that contention with facts.

what''s important is the blatant lie that no one on the left " never didn't want to be Americans"

Important to you, perhaps but not to the point I was addressing.

they clearly stated they would leave,, nay even stood beside the road with I'm sorry signs and I'm leaving signs..

And you saw these people, did you?

 

[WillowTree]

google is yer friend. just cause it's too painful for you to remember the actions of the left leaning America haters.. won't make it go away..

 

[editec]

The solution is simple..CONSTIUTIONAL CONVENTION.

careful what you wish for....

I didn't wish for it, Jill.

I merely noted that that is the only legal way that the states can drastically alter their current agreement regards the FED.

the people who would do it now wouldn't be nearly as smart about it as the guys who did it then.

While I certainly admire the guys who created such a radical government for its day, I am not especially impressed with that Constitution for today.

Or let me put this another way...I am not especially impressed with the some of the judgements from our Supreme Court about the meaning of our Constitution as it stands today.

Not from any legalistic standpoint, of course, but simply from a practical standpoint.

The outcome of some of their decisions gives money every advantage and always at the expense of true democracy.

the "revolution" won't be as romantic as you think.

I don't want a revolution or a civil war.

I just want to hang some of the class who have screwed this nation in order to make themselves very wealthy at everyone else's expense.

That isn't asking so much, now, is it?

Like Madamn LaFarge, I'm making a list and checking it twice, cause I'm gonna find out who's naughty or nice.

But not to worry, Jill, your name isn't on either list.

Neither you nor the vast majority of we Americans are politically significant enough to be in the running on either list.

 

[alan1]

The right of the people to say 'fuck you' to the tyranny de jour is what started America in the first place.

-Joe

Your definition of tyranny seems more than a bit loose. The government is not quartering federal troops in private homes...it is not suspending habeas corpus...it is not disappearing citizens from the streets...oh, and the taxation is with representation, and unless you're making $250,000 ayear or more, your taxes aren't going to increase.

Everybody that smokes makes $250k or more a year?

 

[xotoxi]

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

If any single state did seceed, you'd see an ass whoppin'. Mexico even holds itself together with it's piss ant military. Rebels have taken capitals but it never last. If a state announced this, you'd see choppers and tanks moving so damned fast your head would spin. The governors guts would be all over TV.

You are assuming that any given American leader will have the balls to order the military to shoot Americans. Our leaders don't even have the stones to properly make war on a foreign people on the other side of the planet any more, thanks to CNN, et al and public opinion.

Remember the politics that followed Nixon's Kent State mistake? And that was before cable news and the internet.

-Joe

They would no longer be Americans.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I have no idea about the numbers. that's not important, what''s important is the blatant lie that no one on the left " never didn't want to be Americans"
they clearly stated they would leave,, nay even stood beside the road with I'm sorry signs and I'm leaving signs..

Fine...see ya...don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If I can facilitate your departure by buying the ticket...let me know. Being the left-wing, commie bastard I am, I can get great discounts on on-way tickets to North Korea.

Thanks, but no thanks,, if and when I decide to move I can do it without your commie bastard help.

Damn! there go my Party Perks Points...For every twit I send to North Korea, I get 1,000 party points that I can redeem for fabulous prizes.

 

[MaggieMae]

It's illegal.

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The Court held in a 5–3 decision that Texas had remained a state of the United States ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. It further held that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".

The fact is, you are only partially correct. One thing jury duty will learn you, is the rules.

The decision reached in Texas v White was based on nothing but unsupported assumption. The Supreme Court rendered a decision based on supporting the actions of the US in the then-recent US Civil War.

The fact is, NO language in the US Constitution precludes states leaving as freely as the they entered.

If you google jury nullification, the Supreme Court and judiciary and genral have conspired to keep the people ignorant of their rights. Most states, to include mine, make you swear an oath to consider only the evidence presented in court, and/or the directions of the judge. That's bullshit, plain and simple.

The jury/juror has EVERY right to judge the law as well as the accused. All it would take is an act of jury nullification to ANY decision rendered by ANY court to start the ball rolling.

We, the people, actually DO have the power. We're just to ignorant to know that, and a Supreme Court decision 100+ years ago decided the court had no responsibility to inform jurors of their actual rights.

Weigh THAT against Miranda. Hypocrisy at its finest.

We, the people ar fools because we don't think for ourselves. The decision rendered in Texas V White is bullshit, and is a perfect example of th eUS government covering its own ass after the fact.

The evidence presented in courts is based on law. Therefore, a jury obviously is considering the evidence, THE LAW, and jury instructions (boilerplate) given by the judge.

 

[Peejay]

This is really all so laughable. We're talking about a handful of financially secure, well fed, whiners that are jacking their jaws about this. They aren't going anywhere.

When the shelves go empty and people start getting hungry, give me a ring. Then this might be something more than sore losers.

 

[MaggieMae]

jeesh...my thread got closed for being "stupid" and this one is okay? I full expect RGS to protest.

Address the topic or STFU. Your choice. If you want to make stupid, partisan comments, the Flame Zone is available and waiting for you.

It's a partisan topic, no? Reflecting on history, South Carolina seceded from the union in 1860 and the Civil War began threafter on April 12, 1861. Why is it not okay to make analogies to the current situation whereby Texas is making [partisan] rumblings about seceding which could result in Civil War redux?

 

[MaggieMae]

Although the question is moot, as indicated by the Supreme Court Decison re: Texas, the original entry of Texas into the union is the reason that the question arose.

The difference between Texas' admission and other states is that it was based not the usual course of admission, which is treaty, (a treaty meant two-thirds concurrence by the Senate, and this had resulted in a stalemate due to opposition of abolitionists), but by joint legislative resolution, which entailed a simple majority.

Thus, some have suggested that Texas' admission was unconstitutional. This was adjudicated to be not the case.

I recommend the book "Polk," by Walter Borneman, which covers this thoroughly.

while the question may be legally moot, it is not realistically moot. and we both know the scotus has overturned itself....

secession could happen and most likely a war would ensue....

Doubt it, why would the federal government waste the money over a couple of states seceding, and if all the states did then the federal would have no power to stop it. Not to mention the bulk of our military is already in use and would require too much time to recall, there wouldn't be a war no matter how you look at it.

I think we're talkin' pitchforks here.

 

[MaggieMae]

Um ... yeah ... all the American countries (Canada, US, and Mexico) were founded by seceding from a larger and oppressive government that did not have the peoples interest in mind, thus why it's more American to secede when our federal government does the same thing than to sit back and take it. You know too little about the American ideal.

By your logic, the good English thing to was to revolt? Right? The good Spanish thing to do?

Nope. You can cry for secession from America all day. Makes you unAmerican. You see, if you don't like what America has become, the direction that the democratic majority has taken us, you are unAmerican. You certainly can take whatever ideals you want and try to go your own way....but it won't be the American way. It will be the unAmerican way. Because you see, this is America. If you don't like what America stands for here and now, don't like what the democracy has become, you are unAmerican. We arrived here by the American ideal. We voted for our people. That's the American way. Don't like it? You're unAmerican. Dissent, is American. Revolt is treason.

First, America is actually two continents, not a country, the US is the country we are focusing on, so there you already demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, secession is "getting out of the country because the majority in that area is no longer pleased with it", basically they are using Democracy at it's most pure form, they are agreeing. Also, if you are an Obama supporter who is all too happy with him, you really are far from your own leaders ideals, he would plead and beg for them not to secede but I doubt even he would call them unamerican, treasonous, or anything else you have used here. No, the one thing that Obama has going for him is that he is a diplomatic leader (thus why he has the silver tongue) and would likely just support their right to do so. Learn your law, your countries history, the continents history, and while you're at it toss in a bit of partisan history.

While all that is great coffee table talk, one state seceding from the union because it doesn't like the policies of a new president reeks of partisan bias, and nothing else. How many states threatened (again, coffee table talk but no action) to secede because the majority of its resident citizens opposed something imposed by Washington? In recent memory, Vermont and Michigan did. But they're still here.

 

[MaggieMae]

You can go, but you don't take the Republic with you. You can say 'fuck you" all you want. You can't break the union, short of treason against the United States. That's why it would be war. To beat down the traitors to our country.

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

Well, since there's no precedent since the Civil War, then I'd be all for letting them go it alone and wish them luck. But since DHS's Border Control is a U.S. agency, all Texans would need a passport to drive over to Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico, then go through customs at hubs if flying or by rail. Texans would need to apply for Green Cards in order to work in any of the other 49 states.

There are multitude of extremely SIMPLE problems with secession before they would even get to the MAJOR problems.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well, since there's no precedent since the Civil War, then I'd be all for letting them go it alone and wish them luck. But since DHS's Border Control is a U.S. agency, all Texans would need a passport to drive over to Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico, then go through customs at hubs if flying or by rail. Texans would need to apply for Green Cards in order to work in any of the other 49 states.

There are multitude of extremely SIMPLE problems with secession before they would even get to the MAJOR problems.

There are. That's true. but i dont think we have to worry about anything.

 

[MaggieMae]

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

Yes.

Really ... why? How?

All the money is gone, our military is across the globe, and Obama isn't making it appealing because he can't stop this ship from sinking. Abandoning ship is usually a good idea when it's going down.

What a defeatist attitude. How many crises has the U.S. pulled through and survived? We're probably still the most resilient people in the world. The ship isn't sinking. We're still bailing (pun intended), and it will be plugged before it ever goes down, just as it always has.

Now if you're looking for a NEW ship, you would need to start by literally tearing up the old Constitution and creating a new one, but in 200 years, I can guarantee the landscape would look about the same because of the diverse character of this nation.

 

[MaggieMae]

Secession is absolutely legal. The Texas v. White decision by the Supreme Court has no basis in the Constitution, and therefore, as stated by Thomas Jefferson in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798, is "unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

“The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Mississippi States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Mississippi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John C. Breckinridge, August 12, 1803

Was Thomas Jefferson being anti-American for saying this? Of course not. Self-government is the principle the 13 colonies fought the Revolutionary War over and the basis for our entire form of government.

Furthermore, what is our Declaration of Independence but a declaration of secession from England? Do you honestly believe the founders would have put their hard-fought liberty into the hands of another all-powerful government? And let us not forget that we have a federal government, not a national government.

“The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the right but in the heart. If the day should come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests or kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint.” – John Quincy Adams

Also, let's take a look at the actual Constitution.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." - 10th Amendment, United States Constitution

Secession is no where mentioned in the Constitution. It is not prohibited to the states, and the power to stop secession is not delegated to the United States government. Therefore, we can conclude that the right of secession is reserved to the States.

We can also look at history.

The Constitution required 9 states to ratify it for it to go into effect, when the first 9 states ratified the Constitution the others remained independent nations. They did not get assimilated by default. North Carolina and Rhode Island remained independent for well over a year I believe, before they finally ratified the Constitution.

In 1914 the New England states held what is called the Hartford Convention to discuss whether they should secede from the Union, as they were not pleased with Jefferson or Madison administrations. They ultimately decided not to do so, but nobody questioned their right to secede.

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

So you would return to the original Constitution sans all amendments? You would thus need to interpret the words "We The People," because in the original Constitution, "We The People" didn't include women nor white males who didn't own property and, of course, African Americans.

The amendments to the Constitution were ratified each for a specific reason. The Supreme Court was established in Article III of the original Constitution specifically to argue for those amendments.

 

[Richard-H]

Instead of discissing the seccession of Texas and Alaska, what we should be discussing is the legality of expulsion from the Union. After all do we really want these states, where the majority of the people actually believed that Sarah Palin was an acceptable vice president, to be part of our Union?

I think not!

Seriously, these states are obviously overloaded with dumb asses. We would be far better off without them. Just the fact that so many of them support the idea of secession is testimony enough.

Of course, whether by secession or expulsion, they would no longer enjoy the benefits of membership in the Union including national defense.

I'd give their independance a life expectancy of about a week before Mexico and Russia reclaimed them.

DUMB ASSES!!!!!

 

[MaggieMae]

You're right it would be treason. That's exactly what the Founders did. They committed High Treason. They were men who did what was considered wrong in order to do what they knew was right.

Lets say some state secedes. Do we really have the stomach to fight to keep them in?

If any single state did seceed, you'd see an ass whoppin'. Mexico even holds itself together with it's piss ant military. Rebels have taken capitals but it never last. If a state announced this, you'd see choppers and tanks moving so damned fast your head would spin. The governors guts would be all over TV.

You are assuming that any given American leader will have the balls to order the military to shoot Americans. Our leaders don't even have the stones to properly make war on a foreign people on the other side of the planet any more, thanks to CNN, et al and public opinion.

Remember the politics that followed Nixon's Kent State mistake? And that was before cable news and the internet.

-Joe

If you think that the Constitution declares that we shall "make war," then you misread the intent. It clearly calls for DEFENSE of the nation, not imperialism.

 

[MaggieMae]

Well, since there's no precedent since the Civil War, then I'd be all for letting them go it alone and wish them luck. But since DHS's Border Control is a U.S. agency, all Texans would need a passport to drive over to Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico, then go through customs at hubs if flying or by rail. Texans would need to apply for Green Cards in order to work in any of the other 49 states.

There are multitude of extremely SIMPLE problems with secession before they would even get to the MAJOR problems.

There are. That's true. but i dont think we have to worry about anything.

Of course not. This is just the latest in a whole stream of idiotic noise just to keep the haters riled up. Heaven Forbid they should sit back and take a deep breath and THINK.

 

[WillowTree]

Well, think about it. Democrats hate Republicans and vice versa. It's totally evident in the WH, the House of Representatives, the Senate. And in everyday life. It's evident on the blogs, on message boards and in all walks of life. It's been that way for a long time. When a Republican is in the WH the Dems are miserable obstructive and bitching. When a socialist DEmocrat is in the WH the Republicans are whining obstructive and bitching. Secession may be the perfect solution to seperate those who are irrevreocably divided by political hatred..