Saturday Night Seduction

[dilloduck]

Maybe if men keep running into this problem. Sex being used as reward/punishment. They are dating the wrong kind of women, and need to figure out why they are attracted to this quality (not all women do this you know).

Interesting---then some women use sex to seduce men to ---?

Depends on the woman,not all women are the same.

Lots of women use sex to bond emotionally with their partner. But,that doesn't mean they aren't willing to make the effort so the man feels needed,desired or loved too. Yes, some women do use sex as a weapon..but not all of them do. On the flip side...some men just expect sex,without investing anything into the relationship. That is just as bad IMO.

agreed----we're pretty goofy about all this sometimes. Maybe if we could all drop some pride and ingrained irrational thinking we could do a bit better for each other. Buying you a steak would be pretty damn easy if that's all there was to it.

 

[goldcatt]

Maybe if men keep running into this problem. Sex being used as reward/punishment. They are dating the wrong kind of women, and need to figure out why they are attracted to this quality (not all women do this you know).

I think there's a question of a self-fulfilling prophecy here too. If you keep having the same experience, is it that every woman (or man) you are attracted to is that wrong for you or are you doing something to cause the problem? Could be either, or both.

people are great for using tools that used that worked at one time and and then being frustrated when they don't work at other times. We're really not all that enlightened

Sounds like we're right back where we started from. It's all about learning what works for that person and in that relationship instead of making assumptions and projecting past experience onto present reality, isn't it?

Seriously, it's like anything else in a relationship at any stage. It's all about communication, and that basic level of respect necessary to accept that the other person really does know more about who they are, what they want and why they want it than we do - even if it doesn't fit our preconceptions.

Easy to say, not always easy to do. But it's the classic mistake.

 

[dilloduck]

and I think lumpy baited us all into this convo with a simple " what do I have to do to get sex from a woman these days? " question.

Guess the answer shoulda been " find the right one " cept he's married.

 

[Madeline]

You are right, dilloduck.

Damn that Lumpy...........

 

[dilloduck]

You are right, dilloduck.

Damn that Lumpy...........

he's tricky but sure knows how to keep us busy

 

[Madeline]

I suspect Lumpy "got busy" last night as well......

O, well....we got to know one another a bit better. It's not a waste, by any means.

 

[syrenn]

It's not that complicated but as not as easy as all that either. First of all plain old chemistry will disqualify a large percentage of women which reduces opportunity.
Respect and admiration mean vastly different things to individual women as has been demonstrated on this thread. Men are tasked with discovering exactly what represents respect and admiration to individual women ( some of whom can't even recognize it when it is being given ). Then when the woman gives it up for some "hot bad boy" his mind is really blown.
All this while the man is in need of some respect and admiration himself but is expected to provide it to the lady first. Are these qualities that men are to deny themselves while hunting for a romantic or sexual liason ?
Haven't we moved passed the time when ladies waited for a 'prince charming' to guess all her needs and provide them to her? Once women yield to the advances they wonder what happened to the man they first knew. Maybe he was too busy trying to reasasure her to be himself.
Don't worry guys--they plan to fix us up after all is said and done

The problem here is the men - or some of them, I should be clear - play the double standard.

If a man is not feeling like his own needs are being met, is he telling the woman what they are? If he tells her what they are and she attempts to deliver, is he letting her know if it's not what he needed? Does he step back to see and appreciate her efforts, even if they aren't precisely on the mark? I had a man bring me flowers I was allergic to once. He was mortified. But it was only a second date, he had no way to know, and the thought was sweet and still very much appreciated.

Also, does he say one thing and mean another? Is he feeling constrained by his own idea of having to be the "Prince Charming" and provider instead of just being himself and being open about the fact that he has needs at all? Or is he doing the whole emotional macho act and pretending needs are for wimps?

Respect and appreciation do mean different things to different women - that was my whole point. One size doesn't fit all, and we know when we're being lumped in that category and told what we want instead of asked. If you're talking about much beyond a one night stand, keeping a lady's interest in or out of bed means finding out what that means to her. AND letting her know what that means to you. Believe it or not, any good woman who cares about her man at all wants to make sure she's treating him right and satisfying his needs too. But she's no more a mind reader than he is.

Now, if you're just looking to get your rocks off and go your own way it's a whole different set of rules, and where the hot bad boys come in. But that didn't seem to be what was being asked.

Like I said----it's not all that simple having the agggressor hormones. Finding out what it is that actually makes an individual woman feel respected and appreciated for something more than sex takes work. If she is witholding sex until he finds this right combo he's also trying to figure all this out with a brain that's drowning in testosterone. Not as simple as one might think. How many men have made a complete ass of themselves trying to get a piece of one ? Do you think it's because they are stupid ?

Have you ever just tried asking what does it for them?

 

[goldcatt]

Maybe if men keep running into this problem. Sex being used as reward/punishment. They are dating the wrong kind of women, and need to figure out why they are attracted to this quality (not all women do this you know).

Interesting---then some women use sex to seduce men to ---?

Depends on the woman,not all women are the same.

Lots of women use sex to bond emotionally with their partner. But,that doesn't mean they aren't willing to make the effort so the man feels needed,desired or loved too. Yes, some women do use sex as a weapon..but not all of them do. On the flip side...some men just expect sex,without investing anything into the relationship. That is just as bad IMO.

There are both men and women who use sex as a means to another end, not just as something they enjoy with their partner as an integral part of a relationship.

I'd say the average woman who bonds emotionally with her partner through sex isn't using it as a weapon, many women and some men naturally equate physical intimacy with emotional intimacy. That doesn't mean somebody's being "used". But if the two are linked in that person's mind and the emotional needs are being neglected, she (or he) may not feel much physical desire either. Or they may demand more, thinking the physical intimacy will make up for the lack of emotional intimacy. Either way it's bad but not really using it as a "weapon", it's a symptom of a larger issue.

But is there a mutuality there, in that both partners are at least trying to meet each other's needs in the relationship both in and out of the bedroom? I think that's the question. People aren't perfect, but if one or the other is taking without having any intent to give there's your problem. Or if somebody is deliberately withholding sex or any other important form of intimacy in order to get something else, it's a huge problem. Men who want sex and aren't willing to invest in a relationship to get it, women who withhold sex unless they get something else they want, both are the kind of people we all need to run from as fast as we can.

 

[dilloduck]

The problem here is the men - or some of them, I should be clear - play the double standard.

If a man is not feeling like his own needs are being met, is he telling the woman what they are? If he tells her what they are and she attempts to deliver, is he letting her know if it's not what he needed? Does he step back to see and appreciate her efforts, even if they aren't precisely on the mark? I had a man bring me flowers I was allergic to once. He was mortified. But it was only a second date, he had no way to know, and the thought was sweet and still very much appreciated.

Also, does he say one thing and mean another? Is he feeling constrained by his own idea of having to be the "Prince Charming" and provider instead of just being himself and being open about the fact that he has needs at all? Or is he doing the whole emotional macho act and pretending needs are for wimps?

Respect and appreciation do mean different things to different women - that was my whole point. One size doesn't fit all, and we know when we're being lumped in that category and told what we want instead of asked. If you're talking about much beyond a one night stand, keeping a lady's interest in or out of bed means finding out what that means to her. AND letting her know what that means to you. Believe it or not, any good woman who cares about her man at all wants to make sure she's treating him right and satisfying his needs too. But she's no more a mind reader than he is.

Now, if you're just looking to get your rocks off and go your own way it's a whole different set of rules, and where the hot bad boys come in. But that didn't seem to be what was being asked.

Like I said----it's not all that simple having the agggressor hormones. Finding out what it is that actually makes an individual woman feel respected and appreciated for something more than sex takes work. If she is witholding sex until he finds this right combo he's also trying to figure all this out with a brain that's drowning in testosterone. Not as simple as one might think. How many men have made a complete ass of themselves trying to get a piece of one ? Do you think it's because they are stupid ?

Have you ever just tried asking what does it for them?

I don't think that's a really great line to start out with for most women but I'll give it a shot

 

[goldcatt]

Like I said----it's not all that simple having the agggressor hormones. Finding out what it is that actually makes an individual woman feel respected and appreciated for something more than sex takes work. If she is witholding sex until he finds this right combo he's also trying to figure all this out with a brain that's drowning in testosterone. Not as simple as one might think. How many men have made a complete ass of themselves trying to get a piece of one ? Do you think it's because they are stupid ?

Have you ever just tried asking what does it for them?

I don't think that's a really great line to start out with for most women but I'll give it a shot

You don't? Oh my.....herein lies the problem. Women LIKE to be asked. We WANT to be asked. The caveat being then we do sort of expect you to listen to the answers.

Syrenn is 100% right. Just ask already!

 

[Shadow]

What do women use as a prize to seduce men ?

Maybe if men keep running into this problem. Sex being used as reward/punishment. They are dating the wrong kind of women, and need to figure out why they are attracted to this quality (not all women do this you know).

I think there's a question of a self-fulfilling prophecy here too. If you keep having the same experience, is it that every woman (or man) you are attracted to is that wrong for you or are you doing something to cause the problem? Could be either, or both.

That was exactly what I was getting at. Dillo,said the same thing. Men and women keep repeating the same patterns/using the same tools,but expecting a different result for some reason. The people who are letting us down are just being themselves,yet we keep getting disappointed and we then wonder why.

 

[dilloduck]

Have you ever just tried asking what does it for them?

I don't think that's a really great line to start out with for most women but I'll give it a shot

You don't? Oh my.....herein lies the problem. Women LIKE to be asked. We WANT to be asked. The caveat being then we do sort of expect you to listen to the answers.

Syrenn is 100% right. Just ask already!

walk into a bar and say---" hey baby--what does it for you ? " I think not !

 

[goldcatt]

I don't think that's a really great line to start out with for most women but I'll give it a shot

You don't? Oh my.....herein lies the problem. Women LIKE to be asked. We WANT to be asked. The caveat being then we do sort of expect you to listen to the answers.

Syrenn is 100% right. Just ask already!

walk into a bar and say---" hey baby--what does it for you ? " I think not !

Now what did I say about one night stands having different rules?

But what's stopping you from asking what she likes to do, for example? Her favorite (movies/places/color/music/food/fill in the blank) and then ask her on a date involving one of those things you think you'd both enjoy? It's not that hard, really. Just ask, listen and show her you were listening. If she's the right kind of person she'll appreciate it and reciprocate.

 

[dilloduck]

You don't? Oh my.....herein lies the problem. Women LIKE to be asked. We WANT to be asked. The caveat being then we do sort of expect you to listen to the answers.

Syrenn is 100% right. Just ask already!

walk into a bar and say---" hey baby--what does it for you ? " I think not !

Now what did I say about one night stands having different rules?

But what's stopping you from asking what she likes to do, for example? Her favorite (movies/places/color/music/food/fill in the blank) and then ask her on a date involving one of those things you think you'd both enjoy? It's not that hard, really. Just ask, listen and show her you were listening. If she's the right kind of person she'll appreciate it and reciprocate.

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

 

[goldcatt]

walk into a bar and say---" hey baby--what does it for you ? " I think not !

Now what did I say about one night stands having different rules?

But what's stopping you from asking what she likes to do, for example? Her favorite (movies/places/color/music/food/fill in the blank) and then ask her on a date involving one of those things you think you'd both enjoy? It's not that hard, really. Just ask, listen and show her you were listening. If she's the right kind of person she'll appreciate it and reciprocate.

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

If all you want is to go to a bar, pick up a chick and take her home with you for a night, can't help you there. That's a whole different game, and one most women with any self-respect stopped playing soon after high school, maybe college. Once they got old and wise enough to understand they're not immortal anyway.

Yes, you've got to do a little work if you want a woman who's worth the effort. Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

If all you want is somebody willing to put out wihout any effort, you'll find her but she probably isn't going to be anything like what you really want. But hey, happy hunting!

 

[dilloduck]

Now what did I say about one night stands having different rules?

But what's stopping you from asking what she likes to do, for example? Her favorite (movies/places/color/music/food/fill in the blank) and then ask her on a date involving one of those things you think you'd both enjoy? It's not that hard, really. Just ask, listen and show her you were listening. If she's the right kind of person she'll appreciate it and reciprocate.

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

If all you want is to go to a bar, pick up a chick and take her home with you for a night, can't help you there. That's a whole different game, and one most women with any self-respect stopped playing soon after high school, maybe college. Once they got old and wise enough to understand they're not immortal anyway.

Yes, you've got to do a little work if you want a woman who's worth the effort. Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

If all you want is somebody willing to put out wihout any effort, you'll find her but she probably isn't going to be anything like what you really want. But hey, happy hunting!

Oh bull---there are a lot of women with self respect that want sex without all the formalities.
It doesn't make em sluts. And sure--I think men understand that if the women is someone he wants to spend time with that he will want to put the energy into it. Hopefully the woman realizes it too instead of waiting to make sure that the guy does the appropriate amout of kow towing. They miss out on a lot that way by over estimating their worth.
Fortunately women do some hunting these days too so men aren't the ones taking all the risks.

 

[dilloduck]

Now what did I say about one night stands having different rules?

But what's stopping you from asking what she likes to do, for example? Her favorite (movies/places/color/music/food/fill in the blank) and then ask her on a date involving one of those things you think you'd both enjoy? It's not that hard, really. Just ask, listen and show her you were listening. If she's the right kind of person she'll appreciate it and reciprocate.

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

Making the woman work ? I think your getting the point now. You mean it's not something that's expected from them ?>

 

[Shadow]

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

If all you want is to go to a bar, pick up a chick and take her home with you for a night, can't help you there. That's a whole different game, and one most women with any self-respect stopped playing soon after high school, maybe college. Once they got old and wise enough to understand they're not immortal anyway.

Yes, you've got to do a little work if you want a woman who's worth the effort. Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

If all you want is somebody willing to put out wihout any effort, you'll find her but she probably isn't going to be anything like what you really want. But hey, happy hunting!

Oh bull---there are a lot of women with self respect that want sex without all the formalities.
It doesn't make em sluts. And sure--I think men understand that if the women is someone he wants to spend time with that he will want to put the energy into it. Hopefully the woman realizes it too instead of waiting to make sure that the guy does the appropriate amout of kow towing. They miss out on a lot that way by over estimating their worth.
Fortunately women do some hunting these days too so men aren't the ones taking all the risks.

Well,if it's true that there are lots of women who just want sex without the formalities...guess you wouldn't really need to seduce them. So "hey baby,how do you want it" could work after all. Give it a shot.

Define what you mean by "Kow towing". What do you think is unreasonable in the way of a woman's expectations in getting to know her partner before sex takes place in a relationship?

 

[goldcatt]

I've gone back to Lumpy's scenario which is basically ' what does a man have to do to get sex these days '. A lot or a little. I say it depends on the all the variables.

If all you want is to go to a bar, pick up a chick and take her home with you for a night, can't help you there. That's a whole different game, and one most women with any self-respect stopped playing soon after high school, maybe college. Once they got old and wise enough to understand they're not immortal anyway.

Yes, you've got to do a little work if you want a woman who's worth the effort. Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

If all you want is somebody willing to put out wihout any effort, you'll find her but she probably isn't going to be anything like what you really want. But hey, happy hunting!

Oh bull---there are a lot of women with self respect that want sex without all the formalities.
It doesn't make em sluts. And sure--I think men understand that if the women is someone he wants to spend time with that he will want to put the energy into it. Hopefully the woman realizes it too instead of waiting to make sure that the guy does the appropriate amout of kow towing. They miss out on a lot that way by over estimating their worth.
Fortunately women do some hunting these days too so men aren't the ones taking all the risks.

Of course sex happens without the formalities, and a lot of it. No, it doesn't make a woman a slut. But the scenario you describe isn't usually how that happens. This isn't the height of the sexual revolution anymore, we're not in our teens or early twenties and full of ourselves anymore, and there aren't many mature, intelligent women who are going to just hop on home with a total stranger based on nothing more than a pickup line in a bar. There are real psychos out there. There are diseases. If you're looking for casual, past a certain age there are the inevitable drunk, insecure and desperate who will misunderstand your intentions. There are good men still out there, but there are also users and abusers and bitter freaks of all kinds. The older and wiser the women get the more they want to have some idea what they're getting into first. There are ways to get hooked up that are much safer on every level than heading home with a stranger in a bar. Or so I'm told.

Who said women don't hunt or take on any risk? Dear lord, of course we do.

You think a woman is overestimating her worth when she wants a man to want to get to know her and value her for who she is, not just what she can provide in terms of sex or who he imagines her to be? Wow, that's rough. It has nothing to do with kowtowing, or at least not for a lot of us, but if you honestly think simply asking is a bad thing I can see how you might believe that.

You know, the number one mistake men make is assuming the current woman he's with is the last woman who stepped all over him, and he treats her accordingly. Women can make the same mistake, don't get me wrong. But how is it too much to ask to want to be appreciated for ourselves, and for some outward acknowledgement so we know it? Something as simple as remembering how we like our coffee can go a long way. So can something as simple as....asking.

 

[dilloduck]

If all you want is to go to a bar, pick up a chick and take her home with you for a night, can't help you there. That's a whole different game, and one most women with any self-respect stopped playing soon after high school, maybe college. Once they got old and wise enough to understand they're not immortal anyway.

Yes, you've got to do a little work if you want a woman who's worth the effort. Making the woman do a little work isn't a bad idea either, it gives you a chance to find out what kind of person she is and whether she's appreciative and willing to reciprocate.

If all you want is somebody willing to put out wihout any effort, you'll find her but she probably isn't going to be anything like what you really want. But hey, happy hunting!

Oh bull---there are a lot of women with self respect that want sex without all the formalities.
It doesn't make em sluts. And sure--I think men understand that if the women is someone he wants to spend time with that he will want to put the energy into it. Hopefully the woman realizes it too instead of waiting to make sure that the guy does the appropriate amout of kow towing. They miss out on a lot that way by over estimating their worth.
Fortunately women do some hunting these days too so men aren't the ones taking all the risks.

Well,if it's true that there are lots of women who just want sex without the formalities...guess you wouldn't really need to seduce them. So "hey baby,how do you want it" could work after all. Give it a shot.

Define what you mean by "Kow towing". What do you think is unreasonable in the way of a woman's expectations in getting to know her partner before sex takes place in a relationship?

Good point--if neither partner has to do a hell of a lot of seducing then I guess that's what you call both of them getting lucky

I don't think there is any reasonable norm as far as expectations go. Again it all depends on the individual man and woman. Men are the agressors and women are the gate keepers.
It's just the way it is. Men have to pass the test and the woman is in control of consenting.
Surely women understand they have such power.