Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Sixties Fan]

No.

What we keep saying is that the Muslims have over 50 countries from lands they have conquered.

And if their life depends on it, the Jews will never be allowed to keep their ONE State, because Islam does not allow the Jews to be sovereign on land once conquered by Muslims.

Is that clear enough for you, now?

What does that even have to do with anything?

I don’t support the demise of Israel. Are we clear on that?

I support the rights of the Palestinian people to have their own state or some system of autonomy that does not include the destruction of Israel. Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Palestiniansas a people. Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Jews as a people. Are we clear on that?

None of the above is dependent on how many countries Muslims happen to have.

And here is another example on how amazingly dense you are. Sorry.

The Jews have always said ok to having an Arab state along a Jewish one. From 1937 on, when the British started pushing it in order to put an end to the attacks.

The Arabs will always reject any peace with Israel. They want the whole land.

They cannot allow Jews to be sovereign of any land, especially with Muslims being not the ones in power and in Government, as it is in Israel.

You can support the recognition of both people all you like.

The Arab Muslims who started the war against the Jews and any Jewish State in 1920, do not, and will not, as long as endless money keeps coming their way.

Take the number of Muslim states out of your mind.


It is about the existence on ANY Jewish state on any part of land once conquered by Muslims, any Muslims.

Which explains why for 700 years, the Arabs never rose against the Turks.

But bring the Jews to become sovereign over their own ancient homeland......


Hell broke loose.

Again. What does that have to do with what I just said? And I am confused as to what your position actually is because you seem to contradict yourself.

It sounds as if you are saying that a Palestinian State and a Jewish state can not both exist.

If that is the case than what the heck do you propose as a solution?

One more time:

Arab Palestinians, as well as many other Arabs and Muslims......

Cannot allow a Jewish State to exist on any land once conquered by Muslims.

Therefore, if Arabs have their way, someday Israel will be destroyed and all that will be left is a Palestinian State, if that is what their leaders are going to continue to wish to call it.


What is the solution of giving money endlessly to a people whose leaders want to see the end of a country so that their own can exist?

So what do you propose as a solution then if it isn’t two states or some other form of autonomy?

With the current leaders and the mentality they continue to foster.....

There is no solution with all the Billions pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, the EU, etc. Not one of them is working for solving the two state solution.
They are giving them money to make sure the Palestinians do one day succeed in destroying Israel, one way or another.
Israel gave up Gaza for peace. Victory for them.
They hope Israel will continue to give up more land and more rights, until there is none.
Victory.

To keep feeding the beast hoping that it will change its stripes.......does not work.

So, one needs to take away those stripes, one by one, and show the beast that the only way is to be like everyone else and seek peace.

Take away the Billions, and it will be like Egypt and Jordan. It will need to come to the table to negotiate, for peace.

 

[Coyote]

What does that even have to do with anything?

I don’t support the demise of Israel. Are we clear on that?

I support the rights of the Palestinian people to have their own state or some system of autonomy that does not include the destruction of Israel. Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Palestiniansas a people. Are we clear on that?

I support the recognition of Jews as a people. Are we clear on that?

None of the above is dependent on how many countries Muslims happen to have.

And here is another example on how amazingly dense you are. Sorry.

The Jews have always said ok to having an Arab state along a Jewish one. From 1937 on, when the British started pushing it in order to put an end to the attacks.

The Arabs will always reject any peace with Israel. They want the whole land.

They cannot allow Jews to be sovereign of any land, especially with Muslims being not the ones in power and in Government, as it is in Israel.

You can support the recognition of both people all you like.

The Arab Muslims who started the war against the Jews and any Jewish State in 1920, do not, and will not, as long as endless money keeps coming their way.

Take the number of Muslim states out of your mind.


It is about the existence on ANY Jewish state on any part of land once conquered by Muslims, any Muslims.

Which explains why for 700 years, the Arabs never rose against the Turks.

But bring the Jews to become sovereign over their own ancient homeland......


Hell broke loose.

Again. What does that have to do with what I just said? And I am confused as to what your position actually is because you seem to contradict yourself.

It sounds as if you are saying that a Palestinian State and a Jewish state can not both exist.

If that is the case than what the heck do you propose as a solution?

One more time:

Arab Palestinians, as well as many other Arabs and Muslims......

Cannot allow a Jewish State to exist on any land once conquered by Muslims.

Therefore, if Arabs have their way, someday Israel will be destroyed and all that will be left is a Palestinian State, if that is what their leaders are going to continue to wish to call it.


What is the solution of giving money endlessly to a people whose leaders want to see the end of a country so that their own can exist?

So what do you propose as a solution then if it isn’t two states or some other form of autonomy?

With the current leaders and the mentality they continue to foster.....

There is no solution with all the Billions pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, the EU, etc. Not one of them is working for solving the two state solution.
They are giving them money to make sure the Palestinians do one day succeed in destroying Israel, one way or another.
Israel gave up Gaza for peace. Victory for them.
They hope Israel will continue to give up more land and more rights, until there is none.
Victory.

To keep feeding the beast hoping that it will change its stripes.......does not work.

So, one needs to take away those stripes, one by one, and show the beast that the only way is to be like everyone else and seek peace.

Take away the Billions, and it will be like Egypt and Jordan. It will need to come to the table to negotiate, for peace.

So yo DO think a two state or some similar autonomy is a possible solution then if you can bring them to the table?

 

[Sixties Fan]

They have not.
It is nothing but a ruse for the Jews to keep giving up their own land and trade it for peace that the Palestinians have no intention of agreeing to.....as long as Israel exists.

Yes. They have. According to polls done on Palestinians. But hell, your mind is made up.

Polls mean nothing.

Their leaders are in command of everything and they are never going to give up destroying Israel as long as they have all the money in the world and weapons to keep doing it.

Do you not understand who is in charge? And whose decisions matter?

Then why are you punishing the Palestinian people when they have no effect on what their leaders do?

The Palestinian Leaders are the ones punishing their powerless people.
That is how it works in any dictatorship.

One more time.

Removing humanitarian aid directly punishes the people. WE control the aid.

Since you have said the people have no effect on their leaders why do you support punishing them?

That is the way it is, Coyote.

Should the Allies felt sorry for all the Germans with all the sanctions they imposed on the Nazis?
Or the Japanese people because the Emperor chose war?

That is what happens in war.

The Israeli people have been suffering because the Arabs chose war on the Jews and Israel. But they are willing to suffer what comes, because they know what the consequences of not holding on and fighting is. Death and the destruction of Israel.

On the Arab side, it is not about survival.
It is about conquest and power and the need to conquer that little bit of the Mandate that escaped the Arabs.

They want that slice of the pizza. And their people are used to kill, injure, steal, any part and all parts of what is Israel.

Two people, two totally different reasons as to why they exist, and why each struggles to be.

 

[Coyote]

I don’t think Egypt and Jordan are comparable. Both were already autonomous countries and along with Israel, all three were ready for peace and the right leaders to get it done were in place. Nofinancial aid was involved. Unfortunately I do not see leaders of that caliber today among the Palestinians or in Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

And here is another example on how amazingly dense you are. Sorry.

The Jews have always said ok to having an Arab state along a Jewish one. From 1937 on, when the British started pushing it in order to put an end to the attacks.

The Arabs will always reject any peace with Israel. They want the whole land.

They cannot allow Jews to be sovereign of any land, especially with Muslims being not the ones in power and in Government, as it is in Israel.

You can support the recognition of both people all you like.

The Arab Muslims who started the war against the Jews and any Jewish State in 1920, do not, and will not, as long as endless money keeps coming their way.

Take the number of Muslim states out of your mind.


It is about the existence on ANY Jewish state on any part of land once conquered by Muslims, any Muslims.

Which explains why for 700 years, the Arabs never rose against the Turks.

But bring the Jews to become sovereign over their own ancient homeland......


Hell broke loose.

Again. What does that have to do with what I just said? And I am confused as to what your position actually is because you seem to contradict yourself.

It sounds as if you are saying that a Palestinian State and a Jewish state can not both exist.

If that is the case than what the heck do you propose as a solution?

One more time:

Arab Palestinians, as well as many other Arabs and Muslims......

Cannot allow a Jewish State to exist on any land once conquered by Muslims.

Therefore, if Arabs have their way, someday Israel will be destroyed and all that will be left is a Palestinian State, if that is what their leaders are going to continue to wish to call it.


What is the solution of giving money endlessly to a people whose leaders want to see the end of a country so that their own can exist?

So what do you propose as a solution then if it isn’t two states or some other form of autonomy?

With the current leaders and the mentality they continue to foster.....

There is no solution with all the Billions pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, the EU, etc. Not one of them is working for solving the two state solution.
They are giving them money to make sure the Palestinians do one day succeed in destroying Israel, one way or another.
Israel gave up Gaza for peace. Victory for them.
They hope Israel will continue to give up more land and more rights, until there is none.
Victory.

To keep feeding the beast hoping that it will change its stripes.......does not work.

So, one needs to take away those stripes, one by one, and show the beast that the only way is to be like everyone else and seek peace.

Take away the Billions, and it will be like Egypt and Jordan. It will need to come to the table to negotiate, for peace.

So yo DO think a two state or some similar autonomy is a possible solution then if you can bring them to the table?

In a hundred years, maybe.

If the new leaders want peace with Israel.

If they are willing to negotiate.

If the Billions given are taken away.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I don’t think Egypt and Jordan are comparable. Both were already autonomous countries and along with Israel, all three were ready for peace and the right leaders to get it done were in place. Nofinancial aid was involved. Unfortunately I do not see leaders of that caliber today among the Palestinians or in Israel.

Both Egypt and Jordan were part of the Arab League which wanted Israel destroyed and the land being given back to Muslims.

Exactly, no financial aid was involved, so once the countries found themselves in trouble, the leaders were wise enough to say Enough war, the people and the country were more important.

And they came to the table and negotiated.

Take all the financial aid from the Palestinians and see what happens.

 

[Sixties Fan]

They have not.
It is nothing but a ruse for the Jews to keep giving up their own land and trade it for peace that the Palestinians have no intention of agreeing to.....as long as Israel exists.

Yes. They have. According to polls done on Palestinians. But hell, your mind is made up.

Polls mean nothing.

Their leaders are in command of everything and they are never going to give up destroying Israel as long as they have all the money in the world and weapons to keep doing it.

Do you not understand who is in charge? And whose decisions matter?

Then why are you punishing the Palestinian people when they have no effect on what their leaders do?

The Palestinian Leaders are the ones punishing their powerless people.
That is how it works in any dictatorship.

One more time.

Removing humanitarian aid directly punishes the people. WE control the aid.

Since you have said the people have no effect on their leaders why do you support punishing them?

It is war.

That is how war works.

The Romans wanted to defeat the Jews.

They cut all ways for them to survive in Masada.

And then, one day the Romans broke through and conquered Masada.

War.

One side loses.

One side wins.

 

[Sixties Fan]

(video online)


This kind of explains why those paraded as “peace activists” (like ‘Shirley Temper‘) don’t seem “peaceful” at all.

If that’s their definition of “peace”, this mindset sounds a lot like that of Islamists from the time of the Arab conquests in the Middle Ages (after they expelled non-Muslims from Arabia and later started expanding outside of Arabia and they even went to Spain). They declared areas that they didn’t rule “Dar Al-Harb” (translation: House of War), and started waging war on those around them and after violently subjugating, enslaving and expelling others, declared areas they conquered “Dar Al-Salam” (translation: House of Peace), even though they weren’t “peaceful” at all.

(full article online)

What Do Palestinian Propagandists Actually Mean by “Peace”?

 

[Shusha]

They all have holy sites.

So easy to have a holy site when you can just steal it from another people.

 

[Shusha]

Jews are an amalgam of many peoples and Jewish origins include a multitude of languages, nations, tribes, and skin colors.



What is so bad about this?

Um. Because its completely, totally and insultingly wrong.

The Jewish people are not an amalgam of many peoples. They are one single, existing people who have, through miracles (!), managed to retain their culture, customs and traditions despite ethnic cleansing from their indigenous territory by invaders and the constant pressure to assimilate and erase their culture, customs and traditions, even in the face of pogroms, persecution, discrimination, forced conversion, expulsions and genocide. The Jewish origins do NOT include a "multitude" of languages, nations, tribes and skin colors. (Bringing up that last is gross, btw). The Jewish origins are a single, united, unified origin with ONE language and ONE nation and ONE land.

When you talk about Arab Palestinians you mostly make sense. But, wow, when you start talking about Jews, its ugly.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have indicated no such thing. Stop lying.

I fear you have been hacked, then, Coyote, because as all the good posters in this thread can see, the Islamist poster called Coyote DID say so right here:

Trump freezes Palestinian Authorities BANK ACCOUNTS

Are there two of you running around?

You are such a liar. You are taking what I said in relation to AID and using it to imply I feel Palestinians do nothing wrong in any context. You dishonest piece of shit. I should not be surprised.

You said they have done nothing wrong so should continue to get aid.

It was as clear cut as all get up.

I said they have done nothing wrong to cause a total cessation of aid and I went on to support my points through multiple posts by providing examples of countries with similar issues who continue to receive aid.

Are you continue down this dishonest path? Were you able to refute any of the points I made or are you limited to taking a statement out of context and lying about it?

What nobody ever mentions is that without Israel the Palestinians would not need aid.

You see that all over the world. A people can live in a place for a thousand years. Foreigners show up and the next thing you see is aid. They never needed it before.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You seem to be arguing against recognizing Palestinian identity and agreeing with those who deny it.

On the contrary, I simply think we should honest about what it is.

It exists. But it was not a natural outgrowth of a unique culture which developed in place. It arose within a specific political context as a direct response to other political events. And it still is not strong enough as a culture to bring about a unified nationality and liberation movement.

Does that mean Arab Palestinians have no identity? Of course not.

Most of us on Team Israel can see the reality and express it as such. And discuss it.

Without that strong development of a national identity, I think it likely the Palestinians will eventually be re-absorbed into the surrounding nations. In fact, I've expressed several times that might be the best solution to the conflict.

Does it matter how it arises? Because we don’t know how most identities arose. How came into being as a result of conflict?

Yes. It does matter.

Else I wouldn't be arguing for the honesty.

No, I disagree. Saying it matters is just a subtle way of denying it..

It matters because it has not presented itself as a viable national identity. Yet. Hope endures.

This whole argument is so stupid.

The Palestinians do have a viable national identity.

They are citizens of Palestine. Nothing else is needed.

 

[rylah]

I have indicated no such thing. Stop lying.

I fear you have been hacked, then, Coyote, because as all the good posters in this thread can see, the Islamist poster called Coyote DID say so right here:

Trump freezes Palestinian Authorities BANK ACCOUNTS

Are there two of you running around?

You are such a liar. You are taking what I said in relation to AID and using it to imply I feel Palestinians do nothing wrong in any context. You dishonest piece of shit. I should not be surprised.

You said they have done nothing wrong so should continue to get aid.

It was as clear cut as all get up.

I said they have done nothing wrong to cause a total cessation of aid and I went on to support my points through multiple posts by providing examples of countries with similar issues who continue to receive aid.

Are you continue down this dishonest path? Were you able to refute any of the points I made or are you limited to taking a statement out of context and lying about it?

What nobody ever mentions is that without Israel the Palestinians would not need aid.

You see that all over the world. A people can live in a place for a thousand years. Foreigners show up and the next thing you see is aid. They never needed it before.

Let's pretend Arabs didn't ruin their lives by going out to murder Palestinian Jews...
With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

If Arabs weren't so dumb they'd join and support Israel in their struggle for independence and territory, we'd all have villas and lands for our herds by now. The decision to become welfare frauds was totally a coordination between the Arab states and the UN, an excuse to keep financing the same war that failed them.

Let's not pretend that the rest of the Arab world is a flourishing oasis - they're dysfunction and unstable societies to the core, though You'd like to blame all life's mystery on the Jews, Israel has nothing to do with their impotence as a society, they're just the same as all other badly neglected Arab shitholes.

And yes they will sacrifice everything to keep them shitholes -
WHY? Pictures of poor impoverished Arabs generate billions of "aid" into Hamas and PLO personal pockets. Prolonging the misery of their people is their main (if not only) source of income.

 

[P F Tinmore]

With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?

 

[rylah]

With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?

Israel is a lucrative invention hub, a real magnet for investments and returns, it has proven itself more than any Arab, or Western state that have much more available resources.
On the other hand it's pretty funny when generational welfare frauds call others moochers.
You don't get more shadow projection than that.

What did Arabs generate from their US aid?

 

[Hollie]

On the contrary, I simply think we should honest about what it is.

It exists. But it was not a natural outgrowth of a unique culture which developed in place. It arose within a specific political context as a direct response to other political events. And it still is not strong enough as a culture to bring about a unified nationality and liberation movement.

Does that mean Arab Palestinians have no identity? Of course not.

Most of us on Team Israel can see the reality and express it as such. And discuss it.

Without that strong development of a national identity, I think it likely the Palestinians will eventually be re-absorbed into the surrounding nations. In fact, I've expressed several times that might be the best solution to the conflict.

Does it matter how it arises? Because we don’t know how most identities arose. How came into being as a result of conflict?

Yes. It does matter.

Else I wouldn't be arguing for the honesty.

No, I disagree. Saying it matters is just a subtle way of denying it..

It matters because it has not presented itself as a viable national identity. Yet. Hope endures.

This whole argument is so stupid.

The Palestinians do have a viable national identity.

They are citizens of Palestine. Nothing else is needed.

Your usual appeal to an invented national identity tied to a "country" you invented that has never existed.

 

[rylah]

With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?

My point is simple - establish direct connections on the ground, work on specific projects under survailance of progress. Demand time frames for each program, de-fund everything that ends up in Hamas personal account.
The US and the recipients would be able to get more results and respect, when people see direct investments in their future, instead of simply providing for failed governments.

Establish a relationship on the ground, not through NGO, but directly - and work from there bypassing the dysfunctional Jihadi organizations (aka Palestinian governments).

Isn't that more practical?

 

[rylah]

It is bizarre to measure what is right by the religious make up of a nation even when those nations are culturally diverse...sharing only a religion.

Guess we can’t have any more Christian nation’s or Muslim nation’s even if there are legitimate groups wanting autonomy. Too many of them. The Buddhists and Jews have to catch up. Oh and there are NO nations for Yazidi’s, B’hai, Zororastians, Pagans, Jains, or Mandaeans either. I hope you are keeping a tally of all this (or is it only Muslim nation’s).

So in order to NOT have a Jewish state , one is ready to call some 60 nations out of existence?
Nice... sorry I didn't prepare my "surprised" look beforehand.

Yazidis state depends on the decolonization of Muslim forces.
Zoroastians as well. Pagans have a huge country and several others.
Others I don't know. Kurds need to decolonize Syria and Iraq as well for their independence....
Spain did that once, they're independent ever since. Greeks come to mind as well.

For Jews there's an opposite demand.

Kurds are Muslim, along with other religions...who would they decolonize? Pagans would have to decolonize much of Europe and the Americas. Jains are screwed as Hindus predate them.

Kurds are ethnicity, Jews are ethnicity.
Pagans, Christians and the cockroach worshippers are not. Yet You have no problem with cokroach worship-like states.
Just the Jewish one.

It's sunrise here, I go to pray.
Later.

I do not have a problem with a Jewish state as I have repeatedly said, so stuff it. I just fail to understand YOUR insistence that a Palestinian state can not also exist or that it can ONLY exist at the expense of a Jewish state. I disagree with you on that.

Ok, the word state is what is getting You all mixed up here.
There can't be a unified state, not because it's bad or good, it's the natural reality of the society.
One of the problems of European involvement in the middle east is that the drew borders around totally divided groups, hoping they'll sing kumbaya, neglecting that they've been in mutual rivalry for at least a millennial.
Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Libya can't hold those societies under (very poor) control without internal war.
You suggest a state - I hear "Let's add oil to the fire, push them at each others' throats by attempting to squeeze them like a tuna canned fish". It's counterproductive and damaging.

Look at the tribal divisions in Yemen, Iraq...any of the failing shitholes. Then look at how successful Arab states look regarding their social boundaries.

You don't solve anything by motivating several hostile tribes to form a unified control over a piece of land.
It only exacerbates the problem.

If You're still interested in the topic other than telling us who You beleive Jews to be, we could actually find a set of more productive conducts regarding those investments in the society.
You could even send some to Your congressman giving them an opportunity to develop a more wise plan, preferably less expensive - who wouldn't buy into a more effective and cheap way to produce results on the ground?

I don't' care what You guys think, the US and Israel too will win from that. It's just important to make sure that the AID doesn't reach channels hostile to both. I think it's only fair for an investor to expect that his contribution no to be used against his positions. The way it is done today hurts all 3 parties.

 

[P F Tinmore]

With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?

My point is simple - establish direct connections on the ground, work on specific projects under survailance of progress. Demand time frames for each program, de-fund everything that ends up in Hamas personal account.
The US and the recipients would be able to get more results and respect, when people see direct investments in their future, instead of simply providing for failed governments.

Establish a relationship on the ground, not through NGO, but directly - and work from there bypassing the dysfunctional Jihadi organizations (aka Palestinian governments).

Isn't that more practical?

You are ducking my post.

 

[rylah]

With the aid they've received Israel could make those places into heaven on earth.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

What is your point?

My point is simple - establish direct connections on the ground, work on specific projects under survailance of progress. Demand time frames for each program, de-fund everything that ends up in Hamas personal account.
The US and the recipients would be able to get more results and respect, when people see direct investments in their future, instead of simply providing for failed governments.

Establish a relationship on the ground, not through NGO, but directly - and work from there bypassing the dysfunctional Jihadi organizations (aka Palestinian governments).

Isn't that more practical?

You are ducking my post.

Am I?
You just don't want to discuss anything constructive, just want the aid flow with no results or obligations. For You it's all Jews to blame and end of story.


Read it again and answer the question. For once care about Palestinians more than You hate Jews. And let's discuss something like normal adults, without You suggesting that I must be killed for them to prosper.