Republicans: Not our fault

[WillowTree]

I guess the more I learn the less surprised I am that the GOP is trying to make the Big 3 go bankrupt. I guess since the next election is 2 years away, they can pull some crap like that. But it sure isn't going to win them back any seats anytime soon.

But I guess I can't fault the GOP or Toyota for wanting the Big 3 to fail.

But they aren't in power. I guess what bugs me is we only have a month to go before these jerks are out of office and they are still reaking havoc on our economy!

And boy have you jerks enjoyed it. Don't get used to this kind of power. It'll be a looooooong time before you feel power like this again.

Wait till we tax the shit out of Honda and Toyota, or turn their factories Union. Won't matter, I will still buy toyota.. it's a much better car..

That's one of their biggest fears. That's why they want them to go bankrupt.

I hope someone you love has a pension and it goes bye bye.

I usually don't wish bad on people, but why should I care about people who don't care about us?

Michigan is surrounded by the Great Lakes. I suspect Michigan will be successful eventually no matter what. Whether we have an auto industry or not.

Of course I defend wages for all Americans, even in the deep dirty south. Even though they don't care about me, I know we are all in this together.

kkep calling us names buddy,, keep us pissed, we like it like that,,

 

[Red Dawn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/12auto.html?scp=2&sq=senate gop&st=cse

Actually, it is in large part Congress's fault. I have my doubts that the auto companies would be in financial trouble if the economy wasn't in such bad shape. And the reason the economy is in such bad shape has a lot to do with policies and lack of regulation on the part of Congress.

I blame Unions, gays, secular progressives, and americans who were against the war in Iraq.

If only we'd elected more republicans, and had more deregulation, and had more uneccessary wars, the economy would be firing on all cylniders.

 

[sealybobo]

You just said they get $25/hr.....which is it $15 or $25? Make up your mind.

I know. Wait until people realize the Toyota's and Honda's down south pay really well.

But wait till the big 3 are gone. They'll stop paying so much. They'll pit you against mexican and chinese workers.

We've been right about everything so far. 8 straight years of us being right and you being deadly wrong, yet here we are and you still arguing.

Guess it hasn't happened to you yet.

And I don't know any real life business owners who talk like you guys do. They seem to get it. They know what's wrong.

So it seems this is going to turn blue states even bluer and red states even redder.

As long as we keep Ohio, Indiana, Colorado, Florida and Pennsylvania, I'm cool with that.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I know. Wait until people realize the Toyota's and Honda's down south pay really well.

But wait till the big 3 are gone. They'll stop paying so much. They'll pit you against mexican and chinese workers.

We've been right about everything so far. 8 straight years of us being right and you being deadly wrong, yet here we are and you still arguing.

Guess it hasn't happened to you yet.

And I don't know any real life business owners who talk like you guys do. They seem to get it. They know what's wrong.

So it seems this is going to turn blue states even bluer and red states even redder.

As long as we keep Ohio, Indiana, Colorado, Florida and Pennsylvania, I'm cool with that.

Wow....ummm....it sounds like it might be time for your next dose of lithium.

 

[sealybobo]

Wow....ummm....it sounds like it might be time for your next dose of lithium.

Why would they pay Toyota and Honda employees so much when the Big 3 are gone? There will be more people out looking for jobs and,

Just as people like Willow say, "why pay them a random number like $30 hr, rather than pay them what they are worth".

If jobs are scarce, they'll stop paying Toyota employees so much. And they won't have a union to protect them. They'll say it's either take less money or they'll send the jobs overseas.

Why is it so hard for you idiots to see that you're next after they deal with us?

Look how much Toyota employees make! Way too much:

Union jobs at the Big Three plants pay a dollar or two more an hour -- about $26 an hour compared with $24 or $25 an hour for the nonunion jobs at the foreign plants. But compensation at the American automakers swells to an average of $55 an hour when health care, cost of living and other benefits are counted, compared with $48 an hour, on average, at Toyota.

$48 labor costs? Way too much!!!!! Don't get used to those wages stupid.

 

[WillowTree]

Why would they pay Toyota and Honda employees so much when the Big 3 are gone? There will be more people out looking for jobs and,

Just as people like Willow say, "why pay them a random number like $30 hr, rather than pay them what they are worth".

If jobs are scarce, they'll stop paying Toyota employees so much. And they won't have a union to protect them. They'll say it's either take less money or they'll send the jobs overseas.

Why is it so hard for you idiots to see that you're next after they deal with us?

Look how much Toyota employees make! Way too much:

Union jobs at the Big Three plants pay a dollar or two more an hour -- about $26 an hour compared with $24 or $25 an hour for the nonunion jobs at the foreign plants. But compensation at the American automakers swells to an average of $55 an hour when health care, cost of living and other benefits are counted, compared with $48 an hour, on average, at Toyota.

$48 labor costs? Way too much!!!!! Don't get used to those wages stupid.

it comes down to this sealybobo,, if you are miserable,, I am happy! capiche?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Then what would be the point to being union if they just bend over and give all that they worked for away? They already gave enough concessions.

They could give up everything, the deep dirty south wants the unions broken. And it's not just the dirty south. Corporations in Michigan also want to break the unions. I'm sure Ford and GM want to also. They can all fuck off. Why should labor give up anymore? Pensions to retirees are not on the table. Job banks, gone. Starting people off at $15, fine. But you aren't taking a retirees pension away.

Do you know what my brother told me today? That Ford in Tennessee or Kentucky are union, but employees don't have to be union. BUT, if the company fires that person, the union has to defend them anyways.

Anyways, I would conceed now if I were the unions and just get it all back next year when the GOP is gone.

Do you really live in the kind of denial that tells you the Unions can make their labor costs anything and the corporation just has to pay regardless of whether they can? This is why these corporations need to go through bankruptcy, because the unions need to understand basic economics. At some point enough is too fucking much.

The unions have to understand that if they ask to much, then the company goes belly up and bye bye jobs, bye bye pension, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I can't tell you how pissed I get hearing these smug union fuckers talking. they have benefits nobody in the United States have and that act like it's their right to have. Well fuck them! They need to climb down here with the rest of us.

 

[Ravi]

Do you really live in the kind of denial that tells you the Unions can make their labor costs anything and the corporation just has to pay regardless of whether they can? This is why these corporations need to go through bankruptcy, because the unions need to understand basic economics. At some point enough is too fucking much.

The unions have to understand that if they ask to much, then the company goes belly up and bye bye jobs, bye bye pension, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I can't tell you how pissed I get hearing these smug union fuckers talking. they have benefits nobody in the United States have and that act like it's their right to have. Well fuck them! They need to climb down here with the rest of us.

It is pretty much their right while the contract is valid because that is the agreement the companies and the union made.

 

[WillowTree]

It is pretty much their right while the contract is valid because that is the agreement the companies and the union made.

well, what? when the company folds? You have your rights and no job.. that's a fine howdy doody

 

[sealybobo]

it comes down to this sealybobo,, if you are miserable,, I am happy! capiche?

I wove you two wiwotwee.

But seriously, you defend them cutting our pay. Who'll stop them from lowering your pay eventually?

I'm going home for the weekend. Gonna go to a white elephant party. We call it a willowtree party. Bring a gift that you got in the past that you don't want and regift it. It's a lot of fun.

Seriously, search your heart this weekend. Think really hard what you are arguing for. You are a middle class American, yet you defend cutting the middle class' pay. What's wrong with you? You must feel safe from a potential economic meltdown.

And try to go to sleep knowing that Bush made me very angry for the last 7.5 years, but right at the end he's going to give my state the money it needs.

Just like for the last 8 years the dirty south gave Toyota and Honda BILLIONS in tax breaks.

That was my fucking money! If I knew the dirty south would use Toyota and Honda to hurt the middle class....

Actually, this goes along with what I've been saying all along. The GOP controlled everything in Washington for the past 8 years and this mess is all their fault.

These dirty politicians from Alabama are just prooving me right.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Why would they pay Toyota and Honda employees so much when the Big 3 are gone? There will be more people out looking for jobs and,

Just as people like Willow say, "why pay them a random number like $30 hr, rather than pay them what they are worth".

If jobs are scarce, they'll stop paying Toyota employees so much. And they won't have a union to protect them. They'll say it's either take less money or they'll send the jobs overseas.

Why is it so hard for you idiots to see that you're next after they deal with us?

Look how much Toyota employees make! Way too much:

Union jobs at the Big Three plants pay a dollar or two more an hour -- about $26 an hour compared with $24 or $25 an hour for the nonunion jobs at the foreign plants. But compensation at the American automakers swells to an average of $55 an hour when health care, cost of living and other benefits are counted, compared with $48 an hour, on average, at Toyota.

$48 labor costs? Way too much!!!!! Don't get used to those wages stupid.

Cuz, you idiots are too stupid to leave Michigan..... Toyota doesn't compete for labor with you nutjobs up in Michigan, you have no effect on the price of labor in Alabama. You may like to think you do, but you don't.

If you knew anything about business, you would understand that having a loyal, trained and dedicated work force that does not turn over is valuable to a company. That value influences wages. It also influences the quality of the product. That's why they pay above market wages when they don't technically need to. They could have as many bodies as they want for $20/hr. But they want more than bodies.

Just stand back and let Toyota show you how it's done some more. You would have thought you idiots would have learned by now, but clearly you need some more ass-whipping until you understand.

 

[WillowTree]

I wove you two wiwotwee.

But seriously, you defend them cutting our pay. Who'll stop them from lowering your pay eventually? I don't work remember?
I'm going home for the weekend. Gonna go to a white elephant party. We call it a willowtree party. Bring a gift that you got in the past that you don't want and regift it. It's a lot of fun.

Seriously, search your heart this weekend. Think really hard what you are arguing for. You are a middle class American, yet you defend cutting the middle class' pay. What's wrong with you? You must feel safe from a potential economic meltdown. I have no problem cutting your pay.. you don't earn it,, caphice?
And try to go to sleep knowing that Bush made me very angry for the last 7.5 years, but right at the end he's going to give my state the money it needs. yes, but not additional money,, it comes out of the original bailout.. soon will will give california a bunch so they can keep the illegals.. Just like for the last 8 years the dirty south gave Toyota and Honda BILLIONS in tax breaks.

That was my fucking money! If I knew the dirty south would use Toyota and Honda to hurt the middle class.... I love the dirty South,, whistle Dixie..
Actually, this goes along with what I've been saying all along. The GOP controlled everything in Washington for the past 8 years and this mess is all their fault.

These dirty politicians from Alabama are just prooving me right.

 

[Tech_Esq]

It is pretty much their right while the contract is valid because that is the agreement the companies and the union made.

Did you actually read the whole post? Just in case you missed it:

The unions have to understand that if they ask to much, then the company goes belly up and bye bye jobs, bye bye pension, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

See if their rights will keep the snow off them and keep them warm at night. Keep their kids fed.

If they go in to bankruptcy, you know those "rights" as well as the contract are VOID don't you?

 

[Ravi]

Did you actually read the whole post? Just in case you missed it:



See if their rights will keep the snow off them and keep them warm at night. Keep their kids fed.

If they go in to bankruptcy, you know those "rights" as well as the contract are VOID don't you?

No, I didn't read the whole post. I understand what you are saying. We learned the other day that their salaries are the same as they'd get working for Toyota. And the Union did say they would be willing to renegotiate after the current contract expired.

I think the problem here is you seem to think it is somehow the salaries that are hurting the automotive industry when in fact it is the economy. Which is also starting to hurt Toyota and no doubt every auto company.

 

[Tech_Esq]

No, I didn't read the whole post. I understand what you are saying. We learned the other day that their salaries are the same as they'd get working for Toyota. And the Union did say they would be willing to renegotiate after the current contract expired.

I think the problem here is you seem to think it is somehow the salaries that are hurting the automotive industry when in fact it is the economy. Which is also starting to hurt Toyota and no doubt every auto company.

When the economy was going great guns in 2005, GM was losing $10 Billion per quarter. The problem is not that salaries of the union workers are out of line, it's the benefits that are out of line. They make more in benefits than they do in salary. You don't. Why should they?

In real life where the rest of us poor dumb SOBs work the cost of an employee is 1.4 x salary. That's health, dental, vacation, employment tax the whole shootin' match. They are making like 2.05 x salary.

GM cannot compete against Toyota with that ring around it's neck. If they can't compete, then we will have to pay $4 billion per month until the union contract runs out in 2011. You want to do that?

 

[Red Dawn]

Is that news to you? Did you not read Sealy's story? $2 million UAW dollars to the Dems $14,000 to the Repubs. They aren't trying to build up the Republican party now are they?

If you asked the president of the UAW how many Republicans he would like to see in Congress if he had his way, what do you think he would say?

Of course the union is actively attempting to reduce the Republican party in every way they can. They have clearly picked political sides and it should not surprise them that Repub would try to do the same to them. (Reduce their number by whatever means possible.)

At least you're being honest about your partisanship, and your desire to see the middle class of the midwest, and much of the country destroyed. At least you're truthful that you want unions destroyed out of sheer partisan spite, regardless of what it means for the country.

Like I always said, there's a lot of republicans that put loyalty to Party above everything else. Including loyalty to America.

In stark contrast, I never heard one Democrat say we shouldn't bail out Wall Street out of spite, because Wall Street backs the republican party and is a major source of their funding. I heard a lot of reasons to be against the wall street bailout, but never one as blatantly partisan and unamerican as yours.

 

[Ravi]

When the economy was going great guns in 2005, GM was losing $10 Billion per quarter. The problem is not that salaries of the union workers are out of line, it's the benefits that are out of line. They make more in benefits than they do in salary. You don't. Why should they?

In real life where the rest of us poor dumb SOBs work the cost of an employee is 1.4 x salary. That's health, dental, vacation, employment tax the whole shootin' match. They are making like 2.05 x salary.

GM cannot compete against Toyota with that ring around it's neck. If they can't compete, then we will have to pay $4 billion per month until the union contract runs out in 2011. You want to do that?

I'd like to see them have the same chance to recuperate that the airlines did after 9/11 because I really don't see a difference between economic disasters and other disasters.

Maybe I'd think differently about the opinion's of the libertarians on this board if they were as enraged about the following as they are enraged about bread-and-butter Americans:



(CBS) Insurance giant AIG was given $152 billion in bailout money by the federal government since nearly collapsing in September. Now the company is planning to take millions of that money and hand it over to employees in a program that sounds a lot like bonuses.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'd like to see them have the same chance to recuperate that the airlines did after 9/11 because I really don't see a difference between economic disasters and other disasters.

Maybe I'd think differently about the opinion's of the libertarians on this board if they were as enraged about the following as they are enraged about bread-and-butter Americans:



(CBS) Insurance giant AIG was given $152 billion in bailout money by the federal government since nearly collapsing in September. Now the company is planning to take millions of that money and hand it over to employees in a program that sounds a lot like bonuses.

Are you kidding? We've repeatedly said that we've been against all bailouts, for any and all failed businesses. That applies to banks, mortgage companies, insurance companies, automakers, restaurants, and anything else you can think of.

I don't know about the other Libertarians, but I am personally not surprised at all that AIG is using their bailout for bonuses. If you let corrupt politicians give taxpayer money to corrupt and failed businesses, why would you expect them to not think they can do whatever they want?

 

[Paulie]

Seriously, Rav.

How have you gotten the impression that the libertarians here are anything less than exasperated at ALL of the bailouts?

I personally made a pretty big stink about AIG when it was happening. That was back when we all started to realize just how socialist the Bush admin really was.

Matter of fact, I think the libertarians have been the most outspoken against all the bailouts. I've seen a lot of the mainstream conservatives around here agreeing with some of the bailouts, namely TARP, because they were tricked into thinking it was necessary thanks to the MSM and the governments' fear tactics of "the sky is falling".

You tell people theres a potential for catastrophe, and they'll pretty much agree to anything.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I'd like to see them have the same chance to recuperate that the airlines did after 9/11 because I really don't see a difference between economic disasters and other disasters.

Maybe I'd think differently about the opinion's of the libertarians on this board if they were as enraged about the following as they are enraged about bread-and-butter Americans:



(CBS) Insurance giant AIG was given $152 billion in bailout money by the federal government since nearly collapsing in September. Now the company is planning to take millions of that money and hand it over to employees in a program that sounds a lot like bonuses.

You are kidding, right? I felt strongly enough about that to write all of my representatives in Congress and tell them not to support that bailout. I've already posted the response I got from one of them.

On your first point, It isn't like they were doing ok and then this disaster hit. They were not competitive, then oil spiked, then they lost the ability to borrow money. It is only rational that if they want to borrow money from us that they at least have the ability to become competitive again. Getting them back to a position where they are losing fewer billions of dollars per month than that are now, is not a solution.