Religion and the greatest story ever told..

[Helios]

Animals have no sense of self or so we are taught by SCIENCE. And of course the Bible tells us animals are here for our use but that we are to care for them.

Until you provide me some evidence an animal is self aware and capable of complex thought AND capable of communication other than grunts whines squeals and whale song then have no reason to think any would be ABLE to believe in much of anything.

Now I admit Whales and Dolphins intrigue me. They are pretty smart it would seem, but then so are a lot of chimps and apes.

Nineteen centuries ago, Plutarch, a Greek moralist and biographer made this statement: "to the dolphin alone, beyond all other, nature has granted what the best philosophers seek: friendship for no advantage". 1 In our own times Barbara Tufty made the comment "he [Dolphins] also exhibits a friendly willingness to cooperate with other earth creatures -- a rare attribute which another animal, Homo Sapiens, has not yet learned to do with any consistency".2 Apparently there is something quite impressive about Dolphins. Not only now, when we are learning so much more about them, but even in the year 62 AD!

Outside of his striking friendliness, the Dolphin seems to have been blessed with a well developed sense of humor. Dolphins have been known to silently maneuver behind an unsuspecting pelican and snatch its tail feathers -- usually leaving the bird minus a few. Other pranks include grabbing unsuspecting fish by the tail, pulling them backward a few feet as well as bothering slow turtles by rolling them over and over. Once a dolphin was seen placing a piece of squid near a grouper's rock cranny. When the fish came out, the dolphin promptly snatched the bait away, leaving the puzzled fish behind.

In 1965 Anthropologist Gregory Bateson made the discovery that dolphins live in social groups dominated by a leader. This tie is so strong that dolphins kept in total isolation will suffer ill health and possibly death. It has also been observed that dolphins frequently stroke each other with their flippers, hence, indicating that they require physical contact much like humans. A dolphin's skin is extremely delicate and easily injured by rough surfaces--very similar to human skin.

At Marine Studio Oceanarium, Bimbo, an 18 foot pilot whale stopped eating and became aggressive to smaller dolphins in the tank. The trainers, after a long issue, decided that maybe his ego needed bolstering. So they proceeded to drain the tank to the three-foot level. Bimbo, now stranded, began to whistle piteously. Soon all the dolphins gathered around and comforted him with conversation which consisted of whistles, chirps and the usual dolphinese sounds. When the tank was again refilled, Bimbo's manners improved immediately.3

Underwater Dolphins
Photo by Daniel McCulloch © 1991
Do dolphins talk? Maybe. The above, the next two incidents, and the others scattered throughout this paper will probably lead you to the conclusion that they at least communicate with each other.

In 1962 Dr. Dreher and Dr. Evans were aboard the research vessel Sea Quest, 300 miles south of San Diego, studying gray whales. They had strung a number of vertical aluminum poles and microphones inside Scammon's Lagoon, erecting a type of barrier. A short time later five Pacific Bottle-nosed dolphins were spotted about 500 yards from the barrier. After a few minutes of what was labeled conversation, a scout was sent from the group. Microphones picked up his sonar soundings as he closely surveyed the poles. When he returned to the pod an explosion of whistles, chirps and Bronx cheer-like noises were recorded via microphones. After several minutes of conversation the dolphins proceeded through the barrier and into the bay.4

A similar occurrence was noted when, in 1962, several Lockheed Aircraft Corporation scientists erected a similar barrier across a channel, this time with stronger microphones. As the dolphins approached clicking noises were heard -- possibly sonar soundings. They gathered into a group in nearby shallow water about 400 feet from the barrier. During this time lots of clicks and squeaky-door sounds were recorded. A scout left the group and examined the barrier. When the dolphin returned he was greeted in the same manner as before. After about four minutes of conversation another scout was sent out. Upon his return he too was greeted with the explosion of whistles. After about two and a half minutes the dolphins merrily clicked through the barrier. Returning into the bay that afternoon, and the next morning leaving the bay, the pod did not send a scout when they came to the barrier.....nor did they even slow down.5

Dr. John C. Lilly, who has provided extensive research on dolphins, performed the following two experiments which I consider well worthy of notice.

* Using a mind probe set in the brain, which when stimulated with an electrical current gave the dolphin a rewarding sensation, Dr. Lilly set up a switch where Dolphin #6 could reward himself by pushing a lever. "While I was assembling it, I noticed that the dolphin was closely watching what I was doing. Almost before I could finish assembling and placing the rods necessary to push the switch (which was out of the water above the animal), the dolphin started pushing on the rod. By the time the switch was connected to the rest of the apparatus he had learned the proper way to push it."6

There was no random or apparent accidental contacts before the dolphin learned how. The same thing happened with three different dolphins. They seemed to anticipate the purpose of the switch. Probably from seeing him push it and connecting the push to the reward. Dr. Lilly had used this same technique on monkeys and made the statement that it usually took a chimp about 100 random tries before he learned to push the button, and then a few more to learn how to push the button.

* Dr. Lilly was attempting to make Dolphin #8 whistle a burst of a given pitch, duration and intensity in order to obtain a reward. The dolphin quickly caught on. Every time he whistled his blowhole would move and a whistle would be emitted. Then Dr. Lilly noticed that the dolphin had added a new rule to the game. He was raising the pitch of each subsequent whistle. Suddenly, the blowhole twitched, but no sound. He had passed our hearing range. No sound-- no reward. Dolphin #8 emitted two more supersonic twitches and the third was hearable. From that time on he did not go out of Dr. Lilly's acoustic range. The Dolphin had determined what his hearing range was and stayed within it.

Unfortunately the water temperature dropped too low and this dolphin was lost shortly after this session.7

As far as I know this is the first time that an obvious experiment has been performed on a human by another species -- and put into use afterwards. Dolphin #8 belonged to the species Tursiops truncatus; or commonly called a bottle-nosed dolphin.

The brain size of a bottle-nosed dolphin is comparable to ours at birth and, during their lifetime develops well into the upper levels of the maximum size for modern man -- about 1700 grams. A dolphin's brain size increases very rapidly during youth and seems to slow down at nine years of age. This decrease is less than our slow down which occurs at our equivalent age of 17 years and afterwards.

Complete: http://www.littletownmart.com/dolphins/

Now tell me again how dolphins aren't "self-aware."

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Not of any G-d I know...

that's MY truth.

Oh gee... guess you aren't the only one who thinks your beliefs are right.

There is no Hell to begin with. Man made that up and the Catholic Church used it to good effected followed by most of the Protestant religions.

Read the Bible. If the requirement for Hell is that Satan rules there, that would then mean WE all live in Hell, cause Satan rules the Earth until Jesus returns and drives him out and all his minions and followers.

When you die, you do not go to heaven, you are dead until the resurrection and judgement. Those that are so evil as to be condemned will not be resurrected at all. Those that are judged and found to not pass will be returned to permanent death. Even then there will be no Hell, they will just be DEAD. Further the Bible is clear, only 144000 will go to Heaven to reside in the presence of God. The rest will remain here on earth under the Kingdom of Jesus. All that are found within the commandments of God will be given 'Everlasting" life. Though technically this may only be 1000 years as that is the length the Bible States Jesus will rule on Earth. Perfect bodies, no disease or sickness. No wanting for food either.

The Bible refers to death as "sleep" in most passages. But they are all very clear, your dead until the resurrection.

( this is not an attack on you Jillian, I just quoted you because the previous post is slightly wrong)

 

[jillian]

Complete: http://www.littletownmart.com/dolphins/

Now tell me again how dolphins aren't "self-aware."

An animal being self-aware means they recognize themselves. That article shows dolphins are intelligent. And they probably *are* self-aware, but that's not what the article talks about.

 

[Helios]

There is no Hell to begin with. Man made that up and the Catholic Church used it to good effected followed by most of the Protestant religions.

Read the Bible. If the requirement for Hell is that Satan rules there, that would then mean WE all live in Hell, cause Satan rules the Earth until Jesus returns and drives him out and all his minions and followers.

When you die, you do not go to heaven, you are dead until the resurrection and judgement. Those that are so evil as to be condemned will not be resurrected at all. Those that are judged and found to not pass will be returned to permanent death. Even then there will be no Hell, they will just be DEAD. Further the Bible is clear, only 144000 will go to Heaven to reside in the presence of God. The rest will remain here on earth under the Kingdom of Jesus. All that are found within the commandments of God will be given 'Everlasting" life. Though technically this may only be 1000 years as that is the length the Bible States Jesus will rule on Earth. Perfect bodies, no disease or sickness. No wanting for food either.

The Bible refers to death as "sleep" in most passages. But they are all very clear, your dead until the resurrection.

( this is not an attack on you Jillian, I just quoted you because the previous post is slightly wrong)

Wow, quite a fairytale you got going on. You should write children's books. Oh wait, that's FROM a children's book.

 

[jillian]

There is no Hell to begin with. Man made that up and the Catholic Church used it to good effected followed by most of the Protestant religions.

Read the Bible. If the requirement for Hell is that Satan rules there, that would then mean WE all live in Hell, cause Satan rules the Earth until Jesus returns and drives him out and all his minions and followers.

When you die, you do not go to heaven, you are dead until the resurrection and judgement. Those that are so evil as to be condemned will not be resurrected at all. Those that are judged and found to not pass will be returned to permanent death. Even then there will be no Hell, they will just be DEAD. Further the Bible is clear, only 144000 will go to Heaven to reside in the presence of God. The rest will remain here on earth under the Kingdom of Jesus. All that are found within the commandments of God will be given 'Everlasting" life. Though technically this may only be 1000 years as that is the length the Bible States Jesus will rule on Earth. Perfect bodies, no disease or sickness. No wanting for food either.

The Bible refers to death as "sleep" in most passages. But they are all very clear, your dead until the resurrection.

( this is not an attack on you Jillian, I just quoted you because the previous post is slightly wrong)

Not a prob, though I edited that post.'

What you're describing isn't so far off from what I was taught, though I don't recall any specific number going to heaven. This is where the difference in how Jews and Christians see the Messiah comes into play. We don't see it as a spiritual savior to the extent that He is a Messianic King of the line of David who will bring a thousand years of peace and .. well, you know the rest, but it's tied in with the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. It isn't someone we need to *get* to
G-d, but he brings resurrection of dead souls.

A discussion of the concept of sheol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

BTW, You did see the article I posted on elephants being self-aware, right?

 

[Helios]

Not a prob, though I edited that post.'

What you're describing isn't so far off from what I was taught, though I don't recall any specific number going to heaven. This is where the difference in how Jews and Christians see the Messiah comes into play. We don't see it as a spiritual savior to the extent that He is a Messianic King of the line of David who will bring a thousand years of peace and .. well, you know the rest, but it's tied in with the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. It isn't someone we need to *get* to
G-d, but he brings resurrection of dead souls.

A discussion of the concept of sheol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

BTW, You did see the article I posted on elephants being self-aware, right?

So wait, you believe in the concept of Sheol? Looks like the classic fire and darkness in a cave hell.

 

[Helios]

I do not believe evolution that creates new several new species from one. I do believe, since there is solid proven evidence of it, that a Species can evolve. However that has nothing to do with this conversation. I am waiting for you to provide me with this animal species.... or are you claim that since maybe someday, possibly, could be, one of them MIGHT evolve a brain and system like ours we should all starve ourselves to death and die off to allow them to get there?

Evidence has been provided. What do you have to say against it?

Ohh and in case your not aware I DO NOT believe man evolved from an "ape like" creature.

Then you don't believe in evolution. Ya see, there's some theories you should believe in since there is an overwhelming body of data to suggest they are correct.. ("science" discovers theories), like gravity and newtons second law and... evolution. And there's some theories that don't make a lot of sense, like saying theres a supreme being is keepin a good watch on us, and his all powerful holiness sent his son down to earth to save a couple thousand of us? If you look around and see what's actually going on in the world, you will notice something is fucked up. If there is a god, he doesn't give a shit anymore, I can guarantee you that.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Evidence has been provided. What do you have to say against it?



Then you don't believe in evolution. Ya see, there's some theories you should believe in since there is an overwhelming body of data to suggest they are correct.. ("science" discovers theories), like gravity and newtons second law and... evolution. And there's some theories that don't make a lot of sense, like saying theres a supreme being is keepin a good watch on us, and his all powerful holiness sent his son down to earth to save a couple thousand of us? If you look around and see what's actually going on in the world, you will notice something is fucked up. If there is a god, he doesn't give a shit anymore, I can guarantee you that.

Evolution has NOT been proven to exist to the extent that 2 or more totally different distinct species of ANIMALS have evolved from one species. The Horse proves that WITHIN a species evolution occurs. BUT there is no record like that shows 2 or more different species linked to a single species.

Your late to the game, been round this briar patch a couple times with the resident scientific faithful. None of them can provide any proof so I doubt you have any, unless your secretly waiting to disclose it and win that Nobel Science prize.

All science has it a theory that if this and if that were true then this occurred. No bone records to connect to, like with the Horse. Ohh and don't bother with try to compare single cell life and or plant life, they do not function like animals. Sorry but until you can show me where I can slice off a chinese guys arm, graft it to a white womans body and she has half chinese and half white babies as a virgin you aren't gonna sell that magic bean.

 

[Helios]

Evolution has NOT been proven to exist to the extent that 2 or more totally different distinct species of ANIMALS have evolved from one species. The Horse proves that WITHIN a species evolution occurs. BUT there is no record like that shows 2 or more different species linked to a single species.

Your late to the game, been round this briar patch a couple times with the resident scientific faithful. None of them can provide any proof so I doubt you have any, unless your secretly waiting to disclose it and win that Nobel Science prize.

All science has it a theory that if this and if that were true then this occurred. No bone records to connect to, like with the Horse. Ohh and don't bother with try to compare single cell life and or plant life, they do not function like animals. Sorry but until you can show me where I can slice off a chinese guys arm, graft it to a white womans body and she has half chinese and half white babies as a virgin you aren't gonna sell that magic bean.

I'll break it down for ya.
Life on Earth began about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago.
It began when an amino acid bonded with a protein in the primeval soup.
Through a series of fossil records, scientists have determined that changes occurred gradually, and since all life began from a single celled organism, species continued to split until they formed the multitude of life on Earth today.
Hence, evolution.

And if you say fossils were put here to test our faith my brain will implode into a black hole of disbelief.

 

[Dr Grump]

All science has it a theory that if this and if that were true then this occurred. No bone records to connect to, like with the Horse. Ohh and don't bother with try to compare single cell life and or plant life, they do not function like animals. Sorry but until you can show me where I can slice off a chinese guys arm, graft it to a white womans body and she has half chinese and half white babies as a virgin you aren't gonna sell that magic bean.

But you'll believe some guy 2000 years ago was born of a virgin mother, performed miracles, was the son of a god, was crucified and then rose from the dead??? oookkkayyyy.....

 

[Diuretic]

Animals have no sense of self or so we are taught by SCIENCE. And of course the Bible tells us animals are here for our use but that we are to care for them.

Until you provide me some evidence an animal is self aware and capable of complex thought AND capable of communication other than grunts whines squeals and whale song then have no reason to think any would be ABLE to believe in much of anything.

Now I admit Whales and Dolphins intrigue me. They are pretty smart it would seem, but then so are a lot of chimps and apes.

I doubt if dolphins or primates have developed a religion. That's the province of the human animal.

 

[Diuretic]

It doesn't matter if someone believes in evolution or not, it's like not believing in the Amazon jungle, regardless of someone's belief, it exists and its existence can be proven.

Religion and science are just so different from each other that using religion to reflect on science is simply pointless. Mind you, it does work the other way. When it comes to providing convincing proof of anything then religion is out of the race. I think that's why some religious people are anti-science, science has accelerated past religion as a way of explaining our universe.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'll break it down for ya.
Life on Earth began about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago.
It began when an amino acid bonded with a protein in the primeval soup.
Through a series of fossil records, scientists have determined that changes occurred gradually, and since all life began from a single celled organism, species continued to split until they formed the multitude of life on Earth today.
Hence, evolution.

And if you say fossils were put here to test our faith my brain will implode into a black hole of disbelief.

Prove it. Again you can not. You chose to have faith in this unproven theory just as I have faith in God. Ohh and none of what you said includes the idea that a single animal species turned into two different ones. In fact it is much more likely that the different species evolved in your scenario independently of one another.

Ohh and why is it that billion of years ago all these species evolved and according to you split into multiple species by evolution yet we have absolutely NO record of it actually happening, just guess work based on assumptions? And of course the question ... why hasn't such evolution ever been evident to any human ever in the thousands of years we have been on the planet?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

But you'll believe some guy 2000 years ago was born of a virgin mother, performed miracles, was the son of a god, was crucified and then rose from the dead??? oookkkayyyy.....

Funny enough we have actual proof he existed. Independent of the writings of numerous of his followers.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It doesn't matter if someone believes in evolution or not, it's like not believing in the Amazon jungle, regardless of someone's belief, it exists and its existence can be proven.

Religion and science are just so different from each other that using religion to reflect on science is simply pointless. Mind you, it does work the other way. When it comes to providing convincing proof of anything then religion is out of the race. I think that's why some religious people are anti-science, science has accelerated past religion as a way of explaining our universe.

And there we have the ignorant religion of science talking. Science and religion are in fact NOT incompatible at all. As a hell of a lot of scientist know since they also BELIEVE in God or Gods.

 

[Taomon]

Only 9 signers of the Constitution were Masons.

I totally disagree with you about spirituality. I believe "spirituality" is influenced by the things matt mentioned, personality, ego and education. Some people are smarter, some people have a deeper understanding of the world, some people have deeper emotions.. these people are not "enlightened." There is no magical ascension into a higher form of consciousness. Stop watching so much Star Trek. We are born naked and dumb as fuck. Everything we are, we become. We are given certain genes, and thats it. You gotta make yourself, and god ain't got shit to do with it. The afterlife is for those who fear death, wont accept death and don't want to think about it. It sure makes things a lot easier taking the blue pill, but YOURE LIVING A FANTASY.

No, we are more than carbon animals with large brains.

 

[Taomon]

I grant you that people have a desire to feel connected to things outside of themselves. They want to have an influence in the world and hope that the world cares about them to some degree and in some fashion. Thy also want to believe that there is something more to life than death. Such a strong desire can cause people to go to great extremes mentally and physically. This does not mean that a spiritual realm exists outside of one’s imagination and desires. Wanting and believing something, no matter how strongly, does not make it real.

I disagree, and we will leave it at that.

 

[Taomon]

Your distorting the Word. Those of God's elect have His unconditional love and forgiveness. Its called Grace. Those that do not are subject to judgment and eternal damnation. And its not my interpretation, its Truth.

No, that is not truth since you cannot prove it. It is your interpretation of ancient myths.

 

[Taomon]

There is no Hell to begin with. Man made that up and the Catholic Church used it to good effected followed by most of the Protestant religions.

Read the Bible. If the requirement for Hell is that Satan rules there, that would then mean WE all live in Hell, cause Satan rules the Earth until Jesus returns and drives him out and all his minions and followers.

When you die, you do not go to heaven, you are dead until the resurrection and judgement. Those that are so evil as to be condemned will not be resurrected at all. Those that are judged and found to not pass will be returned to permanent death. Even then there will be no Hell, they will just be DEAD. Further the Bible is clear, only 144000 will go to Heaven to reside in the presence of God. The rest will remain here on earth under the Kingdom of Jesus. All that are found within the commandments of God will be given 'Everlasting" life. Though technically this may only be 1000 years as that is the length the Bible States Jesus will rule on Earth. Perfect bodies, no disease or sickness. No wanting for food either.

The Bible refers to death as "sleep" in most passages. But they are all very clear, your dead until the resurrection.

( this is not an attack on you Jillian, I just quoted you because the previous post is slightly wrong)

That is one of many beliefs. There are many religions and off shoots within each because there are so many types of people with varying needs spiritually.

This is why you believe in what you posted here and I believe in something else and Jillian believes in a variance on your tale. She is not wrong and neither are you...it is a belief. Religious thought is emotion based. That is why it can so easily be misconstrued.

The important factors are belief in an almighty deity (even if you worship lesser dieties like Mohammed, Jesus, Krishna, and so on), compassion and empathy for all other creatures, and a life of moral/ethical stature (as best as we can manage).

 

[Helios]

Funny enough we have actual proof he existed. Independent of the writings of numerous of his followers.

Let's see this proof.