Proposed Iranian Law on Marrying One's Adopted Child......

[Peterf]

I have attend the Friday services of many different mosques throughout the years.

And not once has the Holocaust been the subject of a lecture at the mosque. ..

I have attended friday services at mosques too. -----try to stay awake----for a better
understanding of the filth you learn-----ask bright adolescents what they BELIEVE.
Adolescent kids are excellent parrots and more attentive to the details of "BELIEF"

You may be surprised as to how CREDULOUS children are

Regardless of whether or not such things are taught in the mosque, its unhealthy to assume such is true in MOST cases. There is nothing special about Islam that makes it some horribly evil religion, no more than any other religion. Christianity and Judaism have been used for evil throughout history as well. They're a vessel that the right person can use to further their political agenda, that's all. Many Christian churches throughout America teach you to hate homosexuals, or hate yourself if you are homosexual. Certain churches even practice polygomy. Many Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel wouldn't even want women at certain public spaces. I just don't like us to single out Islam like it's the ONLY problematic religion in the world, or that the Qur'an is some book of pure evil.

But it's a question of degree. All religions are to some extent bad. At various times in history Christianity has been very bad. But these days there is only one religion which is a murderous death cult, which is utterly intolerant, which is not only non-democratic but anti-democratic. And that is Islam.

 

[MHunterB]

Sambino, while I admire your attempt to refrain from imposing 'Western' morality on anyone else - the issue was NOT 'Western' objections, but the objections from CHILD PROTECTIVE GROUPS IN IRAN, from other Iranians.

Does your list of 'ethnocentric' issues include FGM as well - I'm curious. How about chopping off a finger joint or two as a sign of mourning ? IF you're willing to draw a line, just where would that be?
\
Is there NO practice of any other culture which you can bring yourself to see as harmful?

 

[irosie91]

Regardless of whether or not such things are taught in the mosque, its unhealthy to assume such is true in MOST cases. There is nothing special about Islam that makes it some horribly evil religion, no more than any other religion. Christianity and Judaism have been used for evil throughout history as well. They're a vessel that the right person can use to further their political agenda, that's all. Many Christian churches throughout America teach you to hate homosexuals, or hate yourself if you are homosexual. Certain churches even practice polygomy. Many Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel wouldn't even want women at certain public spaces. I just don't like us to single out Islam like it's the ONLY problematic religion in the world, or that the Qur'an is some book of pure evil.

Thats nice that you do not like to single out islam as the only problematic
religion-----your comment suggests that I DID. I did not----I pointed out that
the standard islamic partyline regarding Israel is "DESTROY HER" .....and also ---
muslim children are taught to believe very negative things about jews.
My sense is that you know nothing about it. I have interacted with muslims in the
USA for more than the past 50 years and my husband was born in a shariah adherent
society.

There are all kinds of social situations in the world about which I know
nothing------I generally do not comment as if I do. Sometimes I ask people
who DO KNOW given the opportunity.

For the record----muslim children are also taught to believe some very
startling things about christianity----in the mosques

Muslims I have known from south-east asia clearly grew up hating
hindus

Pakistanis I have known----clearly hated shiites

Iranians gag at the word "arab"

In all societies there are a whole bunch of COMMONLY HELD BELIEFS ----denying
that fact is -----dumb

I apologize if I mis-represented your beliefs, that was not my intention. My intention also was not to make a comment in a way that made it seem like I felt I knew everything..far from it. I am certainly no expert in the subject, but I am aware of the things you have stated, and agree with all of them. There just seems to be a fixation by some people on Islam, or Middle Eastern culture, as a particularly hateful one, and all I'm saying is there are the same problems in Europe or North America or South America or Africa or Asia as well. I'm sure you agree with this.

well,, no----I do not agree with you. I do not agree with you that ALL
HUMAN SOCIETIES ARE THE SAME and share the same hatreds or
"comprable hatreds" and the same mechanisms for dealing with them.

I grew up in a kinda "nazi" town-----lots of highly bigoted people-----
the UBER population was WASP who hated blacks, jews,
hispanics, vulcans and in some cases---catholics . My first encounter
with a THEOLOGICAL DISPUTE was at age six when I witnessed
a catholic playmate and a protestant play mate debating
MARY (mother of jesus) The protestant girl said with
bitter denigration "YOU PRAY TO MARY" ------I am a jew---
but I got the picture Lots of people had a "reason" to hate---
their neighbors ------but somehow none of the churches EXPLODED---
nor did the synagogues. There was PLENTY of hatred expressed----
but no bombs A nearby city became progressively "muslim" over the
decades THAT CITY EXPLODED IN JUBILANT CELEBRATION ---
on 9-11-01. Some societies are a lot more genteel in their hatreds
than others ------another city---a bit further away is known as the place
wherein the first bombing of the WORLD TRADE CENTER 1993----was
planned. When I was a kid----no one was planning to bomb major
buildings there

 

[Jos]

Does your list of 'ethnocentric' issues include FGM as well - I'm curious. How about chopping off a finger joint or two as a sign of mourning ? IF you're willing to draw a line, just where would that be?
\
Is there NO practice of any other culture which you can bring yourself to see as harmful?

Do you tolerate Male genital cutting?

 

[sambino510]

As a general reply to everyone who has criticized my posts, I'll say this. Never would I try to make excuses for people that do horrible things to others. That is not my intention, and has never been my intention. I'm just saying that when you get down to the nuts and bolts, many societies in this world aren't necessarily on the moral high ground.

First off, I agree with pretty much everything you've all said, in terms of what is fairly commonly taught in madrassas and mosques and that some of the practices, such as cutting off limbs and the like, are deplorable.

Secondly, it is also true that, MOST of the time, other religions only speak of their prejudices and their hatred, rather than act on it, but I think that isn't necessarily much of a distinction. Not one that comforts me anyways, especially when homosexuals still are being encouraged to go to correctional therapy or are beat up by their classmates or the like. Just one example, but that's a whole other issue. Yes, I'm aware Islam also does not generally look highly on homosexuals, so no need to state that as well.

Thirdly, in terms of villages celebrating 9/11 or planning the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center or all that, death of the enemy is celebrated in all major cultures. Now, one would probably argue with me that us having celebratory barbeques outside the white house and chanting "USA" after we killed Bin Laden is different than a village or group cheering at the death of 3000 people, and for the most part I'd tend to agree. However, there are historical comparisons that can be drawn. In World War II, for instance, I think most Americans, Englishmen, Russians, etc., didnt give a damn about the average German or Japanese citizen, and vice versa. The more that died the better. They were all seen as part of the evil. This has been true for hundreds of conflicts throughout human time. I'm not saying I agree with such views, but it's not THAT unrealistic for people to cheer the death of a country across the world that has interfered in their affairs for a century. There was no doubt people that cheered the bombing of Baghdad as well, or would cheer an invasion of Iran, etc.

All that being said, let's just say Islam truly is, at its heart, the most "evil" religion in this world and that it's a serious problem. How do we suppose we will solve this problem? Invading various countries and installing a democracy and abolishing Sharia? If these countries wish to change their culture and "progress", they can and will do so some day, some how. Until then, we have to combat evil in this world with good, hate with love, and refrain from hateful generalizations about any particular ethnicity or religion. Even if others, (Muslims, for example) say hateful things about us. I'm not saying any of you display such qualities, just food for thought.

 

[sambino510]

This is a bit off topic, I admit, but at least Iran "proposes" or "votes" on laws. At least they are, technically speaking, a democracy, despite whatever influence Ayatollah Khamenei has. Other U.S. allies, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and others, are still ruled by nepotistic royal families. Egypt would also be on this list of monarchic/dictatorial U.S. allies if not for the Arab Spring, which we went along with to save face. Yet, we never bring up their backwards ways in the discussion of Islamic culture, because we don't want to rock the boat and ruin our military and trade deals with them. I'll be the first to say that Iran has many strange or immoral practices, but the double standard has to stop some day.

Also, as we (most of us who I assume are American) analyze these other countries, we must remember that there is no strict "right" way of doing things. That is, just because the Western world doesn't allow men to marry their adopted daughters, that doesn't mean other countries around the world don't behave in such a way. Not only that, but who are we to say that our way is morally superior? That's the definition of ethnocentrism.

Iranian 'democracy' is an illusion: only candidates approved by the theocracy are allowed to stand for election to public office. Don't be fooled by the propaganda.

What is the point of people fighting to establish democracy in their countries if the rest of the world will just view it as a hoax? Shall the Iranian voters stay home next time? I, personally, have seen no proof of any interference by the Guardian Council or Ayatollah, and until I do, cannot make assumptions about Ahmadinejad's re-election, Rouhani's "allowed" election, or otherwise. The theocracy does only allow particular candidates to run, that much is certain, but in terms of manipulating the votes, I'm skeptical. Just because a theocracy picks their candidates and political parties pick ours, doesn't make their system less Democratic or ours more so. I'd rather have a broken democracy than a nepotistic monarch like Saudi Arabia or Bahrain any day, though certainly neither is preferable.

 

[MHunterB]

Er, while 'political parties' pick our candidates - the supposition is that they do so via caucuses and VOTING by the members of the party, ordinary citizens.

There appears to be no such 'grassroots' approach to candidacy in Iran. Further, their 'democratic representation' of minority communities consists of a single set-aside seat. There are more Muslims in the Knesset than Jews in the Iranian legislature.

 

[Peterf]

This is a bit off topic, I admit, but at least Iran "proposes" or "votes" on laws. At least they are, technically speaking, a democracy, despite whatever influence Ayatollah Khamenei has. Other U.S. allies, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and others, are still ruled by nepotistic royal families. Egypt would also be on this list of monarchic/dictatorial U.S. allies if not for the Arab Spring, which we went along with to save face. Yet, we never bring up their backwards ways in the discussion of Islamic culture, because we don't want to rock the boat and ruin our military and trade deals with them. I'll be the first to say that Iran has many strange or immoral practices, but the double standard has to stop some day.

Also, as we (most of us who I assume are American) analyze these other countries, we must remember that there is no strict "right" way of doing things. That is, just because the Western world doesn't allow men to marry their adopted daughters, that doesn't mean other countries around the world don't behave in such a way. Not only that, but who are we to say that our way is morally superior? That's the definition of ethnocentrism.

Iranian 'democracy' is an illusion: only candidates approved by the theocracy are allowed to stand for election to public office. Don't be fooled by the propaganda.

What is the point of people fighting to establish democracy in their countries if the rest of the world will just view it as a hoax? Shall the Iranian voters stay home next time? I, personally, have seen no proof of any interference by the Guardian Council or Ayatollah, and until I do, cannot make assumptions about Ahmadinejad's re-election, Rouhani's "allowed" election, or otherwise. The theocracy does only allow particular candidates to run, that much is certain, but in terms of manipulating the votes, I'm skeptical. Just because a theocracy picks their candidates and political parties pick ours, doesn't make their system less Democratic or ours more so. I'd rather have a broken democracy than a nepotistic monarch like Saudi Arabia or Bahrain any day, though certainly neither is preferable.

If you allow only candidates that meet your requirement to stand there is no need 'to manipulate the votes'. 'Democracy' in Iran IS a hoax an it is entirely appropriate for the rest of the world - me - to point that out.

In what is know as the West a multiplicity of parties pick the candidates; in Iran a single theocracy does. I expect that if you think about it you will be able to see there is a difference in terms of democracy.

 

[Nox]

This is just cultural way of thinking , not an universal rule . According to what you determine the moral values while you judge islam . An atheist cannot determine moral values without cultural influences or religious influences .

Allah says, you call them as my children (for adopted persons) but this is just the word you use , they're not your real children and they have to know their real parents , if you dont know who is their parents , then they are your brothers and sisters in faith and your pals .

 

[Sunni Man]

No two countries democracies are the same.

The U.S. has a representative style democracy.

Whereas, England uses a direct parliamentary type of democracy.

Italy, France, Greece, Brazil, etc., all have different democratic systems based on their history and traditions.

Thus, Iran is no different in having a democratic process that reflects it's unique culture. ..

 

[Peterf]

This is just cultural way of thinking , not an universal rule . According to what you determine the moral values while you judge islam . An atheist cannot determine moral values without cultural influences or religious influences .

Allah says, you call them as my children (for adopted persons) but this is just the word you use , they're not your real children and they have to know their real parents , if you dont know who is their parents , then they are your brothers and sisters in faith and your pals .

We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals. The latter come with rather too much religious baggage. And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture. Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere? And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?

 

[Sunni Man]

We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals. The latter come with rather too much religious baggage. And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.

That's exactly what the Soviet era communists used to say.

How well did that work out?? .

 

[Nox]

We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals. The latter come with rather too much religious baggage. And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture. Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere? And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?

You atheists figure your moral values under the influence of your social environment , you just dont avare of it . You think that marrying with your adopted girl is a very bad situation , but there are atheists who marry with his OWN daughter in Sweden and its met very normal by other atheists .

Maybe an atheist behave honest on his trade works , because people wont work with him if he behave bad and this will harm his financial situation . But sometimes you can do little tricks in your jobs , this will allow you the advantage .

A believer will behave honest on his trade , because being honest is the correct way recommended by God,Allah,Cosmos whatever ... Even though being honest will harm his trade , he will continue to be honest .


This is the difference ...

 

[Peterf]

We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals. The latter come with rather too much religious baggage. And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture.

That's exactly what the Soviet era communists used to say.

How well did that work out?? .

Very badly. But I am not a Soviet era - or any other era - communist.

 

[Peterf]

We atheists prefer talking about ethics rather than morals. The latter come with rather too much religious baggage. And we think we can devise an ethical system valid in any culture. Don't you think that honesty in commercial transactions, for example, is desirable everywhere? And is not government with the consent of the governed a universal good?

You atheists figure your moral values under the influence of your social environment , you just dont avare of it . You think that marrying with your adopted girl is a very bad situation , but there are atheists who marry with his OWN daughter in Sweden and its met very normal by other atheists .

Maybe an atheist behave honest on his trade works , because people wont work with him if he behave bad and this will harm his financial situation . But sometimes you can do little tricks in your jobs , this will allow you the advantage .

A believer will behave honest on his trade , because being honest is the correct way recommended by God,Allah,Cosmos whatever ... Even though being honest will harm his trade , he will continue to be honest .


This is the difference ...

No one in Sweden has ever married his own daughter. There have men who raped their daughter and have been punished for it - though imo not severely enough.

I am honest - honestly - not because of some imaginary deity but because I despise dishonesty. If I stole even a low value item from a store my self-respect would suffer. Feeling reasonably good about oneself is pleasant. The saying "Virtue is its own reward" has much to commend it.

 

[GHook93]

Iran lawmakers pass bill allowing men to marry adopted daughters | World news | theguardian.com

"Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years.

Activists have expressed alarm that the bill, approved by parliament on Sunday, opens the door for the caretaker of a family to marry his or her adopted child if a court rules it is in the interests of the individual child.

Iran's Guardian Council, a body of clerics and jurists which vets all parliamentary bills before the constitution and the Islamic law, has yet to issue its verdict on the controversial legislation......"

Now this bill hasn't been 'ratified' by the clerics yet - but the fact that there was enough support for it to pass to begin with suggests it has a degree of support.

Actually, the most upsetting sentence in the entire article, IMO, was this one: "Execution of juvenile offenders in Iran has also been in spotlight in recent years amid confusion between the age of majority – when minors cease to be legally considered children – and the minimum age of criminal responsibility, which is 15 for boys and nine for girls under Iranian law.

Come on now. Once wife #1 gets old and ugly, then need to adopt and marry and 2nd and 3rd wife!

 

[GHook93]

Didn't the juden actor Woody Allen do basically the same thing when he married his adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn?? ..

First he is a professed atheist and second, he is a sick fuck!

 

[irosie91]

As a general reply to everyone who has criticized my posts, I'll say this. Never would I try to make excuses for people that do horrible things to others. That is not my intention, and has never been my intention. I'm just saying that when you get down to the nuts and bolts, many societies in this world aren't necessarily on the moral high ground.

First off, I agree with pretty much everything you've all said, in terms of what is fairly commonly taught in madrassas and mosques and that some of the practices, such as cutting off limbs and the like, are deplorable.

Secondly, it is also true that, MOST of the time, other religions only speak of their prejudices and their hatred, rather than act on it, but I think that isn't necessarily much of a distinction. Not one that comforts me anyways, especially when homosexuals still are being encouraged to go to correctional therapy or are beat up by their classmates or the like. Just one example, but that's a whole other issue. Yes, I'm aware Islam also does not generally look highly on homosexuals, so no need to state that as well.

Thirdly, in terms of villages celebrating 9/11 or planning the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center or all that, death of the enemy is celebrated in all major cultures. Now, one would probably argue with me that us having celebratory barbeques outside the white house and chanting "USA" after we killed Bin Laden is different than a village or group cheering at the death of 3000 people, and for the most part I'd tend to agree. However, there are historical comparisons that can be drawn. In World War II, for instance, I think most Americans, Englishmen, Russians, etc., didnt give a damn about the average German or Japanese citizen, and vice versa. The more that died the better. They were all seen as part of the evil. This has been true for hundreds of conflicts throughout human time. I'm not saying I agree with such views, but it's not THAT unrealistic for people to cheer the death of a country across the world that has interfered in their affairs for a century. There was no doubt people that cheered the bombing of Baghdad as well, or would cheer an invasion of Iran, etc.

All that being said, let's just say Islam truly is, at its heart, the most "evil" religion in this world and that it's a serious problem. How do we suppose we will solve this problem? Invading various countries and installing a democracy and abolishing Sharia? If these countries wish to change their culture and "progress", they can and will do so some day, some how. Until then, we have to combat evil in this world with good, hate with love, and refrain from hateful generalizations about any particular ethnicity or religion. Even if others, (Muslims, for example) say hateful things about us. I'm not saying any of you display such qualities, just food for thought.

Strange as it may seem I do agree with your point that there it is not a good idea
for the USA to try to impose "democracy" on muslim societies. I did not figure
it out myself. I have it from people who have escaped the filth of shariah----my own
husband is one-----but I also have it from other escapees. -----christian, hindu, and
jewish. AND.... I have it from muslims. Islamic society is simply not receptive
to western style democracy Islamic ideology is "UTOPIAN"-----the teaching is---
SOCIETIES RULED BY SHARIAH LAW ARE IDEAL on the same level that communists
teach that communist societies are ideal. For muslims this concept is RELIGION.----it
is an ABSOLUTE BELIEF -

as to your notion of combatting evil with "good" ---well---that is the "BUSH" concept
in his silly notion of combatting the evils of SADDAAM HUSSEIN with "democracy"----
it don't work The way to combat evil is to erect a BARRIER between us and them.

 

[Nox]

No one in Sweden has ever married his own daughter. There have men who raped their daughter and have been punished for it - though imo not severely enough.

I am honest - honestly - not because of some imaginary deity but because I despise dishonesty. If I stole even a low value item from a store my self-respect would suffer. Feeling reasonably good about oneself is pleasant. The saying "Virtue is its own reward" has much to commend it.

I have been in Sweden and I saw this people : ) I didnt read it from newspaper . Baltic states are considered as most free countries of the world and correspondingly they're the most perverted countries of the world : )

You will behave honest because you will think that if the same thing was done to you , you would not like it . But still this is not an obstance , you will always want to behave in accordance with your own interests and sometimes cheating people will work for you , this is not moral , this is just your instinct . Maybe you wont stole it from store , but you're gonna it put your pocket when you see it in the middle of the pavement . A believer will think that this is not the true way and going to deliver it to the police station : )

This is not because of actually believer want to steal it but he/she is afraid of God . This is because of they has self-developed themselves in this way , beucase maybe stealing it will provide short-term benefits but will bring long-term damage .

 

[Sunshine]

First cousins can marry in these states, and they call us 'inbred' in KY:


Cousin marriage legal

Alabama

Alaska

California

Colorado

Connecticut

District of Columbia

Florida

Georgia

Hawaii

Maryland

Massachusetts

New Jersey

New Mexico

New York

North Carolina*

Rhode Island

South Carolina

Tennessee

Vermont

Virginia

State Laws Regarding Marriages Between First Cousins