President Obama DERELICT at his number 1 responsibilty

[Iriemon]

Because as the President of the USA he got this ball a-rolling, he could have stopped it dead in it's tracks and he didn't . He should never have released those documents, they were considered TOP SECRET, he did this against the advise of 4 former directors of the CIA including George Tennet and he did it anyway. It will come back to bite him and bite him hard it will. This will cost him alot of support, because Americans consider their safety first and foremost.

Democrats have always been considered weak on defense, and guess what, he just confirmed that.

BTW: Is it considered torture to blow up a US Naval Vessel with American soldiers aboard???? Hmmmmmmmmm

I think in the war on terror, which is really a war of ideals, American ideals will triumph over the values of Islamic radicalism, even though it has a strong point in being religiously based.

But I think the principles of human rights, rule of law, equality before law, democracy, and freedom that made America what Reagan called the shining city on the hill win out over radicalism in the battle for minds.

When America acts consistent with those ideals, she proves their valor. When America slumps to the level of the extremists, with torture, locking people away without due process and disregarding human rights, the line between the good guys and the bad guys gets blurred. Our enemies can say we are hypocrites and that the principles we pretend to stand for are meaningless.

That is why I applaud Obama. It may put us a little more at risk, though I don't think much. But it shows the world that we stand by our principles. Same with closing down Gitmo and trying the prisoners. Same with our nation electing a black man.

We win the war of ideas by standing by what America stands for.

Congratulations. You have the only rational post here touting the left viewpoint. I think there's some good wisdom in it.

I personally am against torture. However, from everything I've heard so far, come on.... these guys weren't tortured. As was pointed out... much of this stuff [and the like] we do to our own soldiers in SERE training. To me, torture is cutting fingers and toes off, or breaking bones systematically. Psyching them out with a physician standing right next to them in the case of an emergency? Not even close. I think the left are only calling it torture to help gain opposition against it. Our boys are being treated much worse by them.
Has America become a bunch of pansies?

And before you getting on the "The Right Wing are Kooks" book tour, I think we shoudl look at the big picture. The Democrats will whine and wail because we made a couple of terrorists cry by putting them in a room with a caterpillar, calling it gross and inhumane, while consistently campaigning to legalize and expand abortion, which kills unborn children (I realize that's a separate matter open to debate, but I think its pertinent to provide a contrast). Its ok to kill babies, but not ok to make a terrorist, whose stated intent is to wipe us off the earth, from crying for a little while, AFTER they killed 3,000 civilian americans (the number would have been higher, but a couple of other plane hijacks were foiled)? That to me presents a muddled message of human rights.

Lets all grow a pair

Thanks for the compliment.

I cannot debate whether I think waterboarding or other forms of "enhanced interrogation" is torture because I have not experienced it, though accounts of those who have certainly seem to qualify IMO.

However, in addition to the issues of principles I discussed in my post you responded to, I am more persuaded by the fact that prior to the Bush Administration, our own government considered it torture and prosecuted, convicted, and punished those who did it to our guys as war criminals.

Also I am guided by what rule I would want to have in place for when US soldiers or citizens are interrogated.

Abortion is a separate issue.

 

[Iriemon]

Maggie Mae, do you have any idea or conception of how many Iraqi's Saddam Hussein tortured and beleive me it was not just waterboarding, then they were hung up by their thumbs and electro shocked every part of their bodies.he had rape rooms and forced many husbands and brothers to watch their wives and sisters and daughters being raped, do you not remember the road side assasinations of Iraqi's. If you spoke against him he took your entire family out for torture and murder. You need to get some history here. The other night I was watching a program and the Iraqi's were out at night in downtown Bagdad living it up. They are free now and that's because of our great military. Saddam tortured and murdered thousands upon thousands of Iraqi's.

Putting aside the questionable validity of some of these claims against Hussein which came from the came kind of sources that informed us about his WMD, its irrelevant what Hussein did to what we should do.

We don't adopt the morals of the lowest common denominators.

We are America. Not two bit ME dictators.

 

[Iriemon]

You think that Obama's position on tough interogation MAY put us more at risk? Are you willing to risk your life and that of your family, because of an ideology? Because I am not. I don't want to risk anyone's life on an ideology. Life is much too precious to risk. I could care less how America is viewed by a bunch of murdering terrorists who have no value for life of any kind, who are full of hate for anyone they consider an infidel, who are intent and committed to the idea that should anyone, man, woman, or child who does not beleive in their philosophy is worthy, and therefore should be murdered. No thank you, idealogy or proving to these insane fanatics is of no importance to me whatsoever, keeping American men, women and children safe from these serial killers is of far more value to me.
Because I value life and I value the right to life.

That is where we differ. I value life too but some things are greater than my life. I am willing to risk my life, and the lives of my family, for the ideology of democracy, human rights, freedom, due process, liberty -- things that make America the shining city on the hill.

 

[Iriemon]

Irie... you have a rough time understanding points of debates,dont ya....what was Red Dawn saying here......

"So if we ever fought a war with China, russia, or north korea, you recommend that they waterboard, and torture captured americans, in the name of their national security interests?"

i know its hard to comprehend.....take your time....read it slowly.....sound out the words....get a dictionary ....look up the big words....
now tell me what i said has to do with what you said....

Well it's certainly possible I misunderstood, I do read posts quickly.

Here's what I understood:

RD asked if in the next war say with Korea, they should be able to waterboard US soldiers if the rule is a country can waterboard in the name of its security interest.

Your reply was basically, is Kim going to care? the Koreans are going to do it anyway. In essence, you are arguing that a rule that says waterboarding is OK isn't going to change the behavior of folks like the N Koreans.

My response then was, if we adopt that rule and as you say, the Koreans waterboard, then what are we going to do against the interrogators who waterboarded our guys? We cannot prosecute them for war crimes if we are saying its ok to waterboard.

The further implication would be that if Korean interrogators even had an inkling of the possiblity they might lose the war, they'd focus on waterboarding to torture our guys comfortable with the fact that even if they lose, they can't be prosecuted for it.

So if I missed the meaning of something please clarify.

basically Irei....i felt RD was saying that those other countries would NEVER consider boarding our guys if captured....and if we do it, then they will reciprocate...but only if WE do it.....and i feel that there are some countries (N.Korea) that will, no matter how good we are to our POW's,i mean they treat their own people like shit,and no doubt torture them if need be,so they are not going to care about their POW's,no matter how good we are to ours....same thing with Al Qaeda.....to get info these types will do what has to be done,no matter how nice we are to ours.....is all im sayin..

I'm pretty sure that RD's point was if we adopt a rule that says waterboarding is OK, what are we going to say when others waterboard our guys? Not whether them might do it or not.

to me the interrogators who torture, are obviously people who get off on this type of shit,....ESPECIALLY those who torture or fuck with all the prisoners,just because they can....those kind should be takin out back and shot.....no matter who they are.....

There is a legitimate reason to interrogate prisoners. But there are methods that don't involve torture.

 

[007]

Rant on.

In just 100 days, Abama has given the Republicans enough stuff to talk about and debate in the next Presidential election and win hands down. It's gettin comical out here in the real country. Can't you just vision all the Presidential hopefuls taking careful detailed notes on this joke of a President. Giving out TOP SECRET info to the terrorists who want to kill us all. Pushing through an 810 billion dollar stimulus bill that no one had the time to read before they voted on it and it was full of very amusing pork. One of which Chris Dodd wrote in bonuses for failed AIG execs, of course, no one knew it, because they did not have the chance to read it. Then we got the Omnibus bill with 9,000 earmarks one of which we are going to study why pigs stink. Now we are going to prosecute the Bush administration people for torture during interogation proceedings of 3 top leaders. lol
We have not even gotten to the cap and trade debaucle, which will cost $2,000 to $4,000 per American household and I can hardly wait for the $3.7 Trillion dollar budget that he's gonna pile on here. lol Oh, I forgot, Nattional health care, what could that possibly entail.
This is hilarious, and it's going to be a slaughterhouse in the next election. Keep it up Obama, there won't be a liberal democrat left in the house or senate.

Rant off.

Pretty damned good rant I'd say...

 

[Maple]

I don't think for one second that during an interogation technique, that making a prisoner uncomfortable, sleep deprivation, cold rooms with no clothing and if still no answers water boarding constitutes torture. The 3 terrorists that were waterboarded provided a wealth of information, prevented further attacks, led to the arrests of other terrorists and likely saved many lives. They did not just run off at the mouth and volunteer up this information without coersion. They fought against saying anything every step of the way.

If we did not apply these tough interogation techniques, we would have gotten nothing from the master mind of 9-11.

 

[Iriemon]

I don't think for one second that during an interogation technique, that making a prisoner uncomfortable, sleep deprivation, cold rooms with no clothing and if still no answers water boarding constitutes torture. The 3 terrorists that were waterboarded provided a wealth of information, prevented further attacks, led to the arrests of other terrorists and likely saved many lives. They did not just run off at the mouth and volunteer up this information without coersion. They fought against saying anything every step of the way.

If we did not apply these tough interogation techniques, we would have gotten nothing from the master mind of 9-11.

Thanks for your opinion.

The US government disagreed, prosecuting convicting and sentencing those who waterboarder as war criminals.

Until the Bush administration took power.

 

[Maple]

Obama made a huge blunder in allowing the release of the top secret interrogation techniques against the advise of 4 former CIA directors. This has opened a huge can of worms that will come back and discredit him as a leader. He will appear very weak on national defense which will hurt him with democrats, independents and republicans alike who supported him and voted for him.

The number one concern of this nation right now is the economy, but the very close 2nd is our national security and on both accounts he is failing this nation and failing it miserably.

 

[Maple]

Interviewed a retired CIA director, forgot his name, but he is flaming mad about Obama releasing the TOP SECRET documents on interogation techniques and stated that we are much less safe because of him doing that.

He stated that it is akin to asking our soldiers to fight a war in a certain country and then when the next administration comes in to prosecute the soldiers for following orders. He was firm and resolved about the fact that Obama has now tied the CIA's hands and that they will no longer do the things that need to be done to keep this country safe. He was resolute when he stated that this will cause more terrorism not less and that Americans are much less safe.

He was disgusted that the Commander in Chief, POLITICIZED NATIONAL SECURITY AND THAT HE HAS NOW PUT AMERICANS AT RISK.

What an absolute idiot this President is turning out to be, in less than 100 days he has outspent president Bush's 8 years and undone many of the things that kept this country safe from another attack. I do not feel safer and this is not going to dissapear, Obama will rue the day that he felt it necessary to go against the experts in this field and ignore his own director of the CIA.

 

[WorldAHope]

Interviewed a retired CIA director, forgot his name, but he is flaming mad about Obama releasing the TOP SECRET documents on interogation techniques and stated that we are much less safe because of him doing that.

He stated that it is akin to asking our soldiers to fight a war in a certain country and then when the next administration comes in to prosecute the soldiers for following orders. He was firm and resolved about the fact that Obama has now tied the CIA's hands and that they will no longer do the things that need to be done to keep this country safe. He was resolute when he stated that this will cause more terrorism not less and that Americans are much less safe.

He was disgusted that the Commander in Chief, POLITICIZED NATIONAL SECURITY AND THAT HE HAS NOW PUT AMERICANS AT RISK.

What an absolute idiot this President is turning out to be, in less than 100 days he has outspent president Bush's 8 years and undone many of the things that kept this country safe from another attack. I do not feel safer and this is not going to dissapear, Obama will rue the day that he felt it necessary to go against the experts in this field and ignore his own director of the CIA.

You are wrong on all your supposed 'facts' and so your opinion means nothing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Interviewed a retired CIA director, forgot his name, but he is flaming mad about Obama releasing the TOP SECRET documents on interogation techniques and stated that we are much less safe because of him doing that.

He stated that it is akin to asking our soldiers to fight a war in a certain country and then when the next administration comes in to prosecute the soldiers for following orders. He was firm and resolved about the fact that Obama has now tied the CIA's hands and that they will no longer do the things that need to be done to keep this country safe. He was resolute when he stated that this will cause more terrorism not less and that Americans are much less safe.

He was disgusted that the Commander in Chief, POLITICIZED NATIONAL SECURITY AND THAT HE HAS NOW PUT AMERICANS AT RISK.

What an absolute idiot this President is turning out to be, in less than 100 days he has outspent president Bush's 8 years and undone many of the things that kept this country safe from another attack. I do not feel safer and this is not going to dissapear, Obama will rue the day that he felt it necessary to go against the experts in this field and ignore his own director of the CIA.

US Army Counter Insurgency Field Manual:

Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal, and unprofessional.

Those who engage in cruel or inhuman treatment of prisoners betray the standards of the profession of arms and U.S. laws. They are subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The Geneva Conventions, as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, agree on unacceptable interrogating techniques.

Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information.

No exceptional circumstances permit the use of torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Only personnel trained and certified to interrogate can conduct interrogations. They use legal, approved methods of convincing enemy prisoners of war and detainees to give their cooperation. Interrogation sources are detainees, including enemy prisoners of war


7-44. To the extent that the work of interrogators is indispensable to fulfilling the state's obligation to secure its citizens' lives and liberties, conducting interrogations is a moral obligation. The methods used, however, must reflect the Nation's commitment to human dignity and international humanitarian law. A commander's need for information remains valid and can be met while observing relevant regulations and ethical standards. Acting morally does not necessarily mean that leaders give up obtaining critical information. Acting morally does mean that leaders must relinquish certain methods of obtaining information, even if that decision requires Soldiers and Marines to take greater risk.


Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War


During the Algerian war of independence between 1954 and 1962, French leaders decided to permit torture against suspected insurgents. Though they were aware that it was against the law and morality of war, they argued that-

This was a new form of war and these rules did not apply.
The threat the enemy represented, communism, was a great evil that justified extraordinary means.
The application of torture against insurgents was measured and nongratuitous.

This official condoning of torture on the part of French Army leadership had several negative consequences. It empowered the moral legitimacy of the opposition, undermined the French moral legitimacy, and caused internal fragmentation among serving officers that led to an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1962. In the end, failure to comply with moral and legal restrictions against torture severely undermined French efforts and contributed to their loss despite several significant military victories. Illegal and immoral activities made the counterinsurgents extremely vulnerable to enemy propaganda inside Algeria among the Muslim population, as well as in the United Nations and the French media. These actions also degraded the ethical climate throughout the French Army. France eventually recognized Algerian independence in July 1963.


US Army Counter Insurgency Manual, Chapter 7, Sections 7-42 to 7-44

 

[WorldAHope]

Obama made a huge blunder in allowing the release of the top secret interrogation techniques against the advise of 4 former CIA directors. This has opened a huge can of worms that will come back and discredit him as a leader. He will appear very weak on national defense which will hurt him with democrats, independents and republicans alike who supported him and voted for him.

The number one concern of this nation right now is the economy, but the very close 2nd is our national security and on both accounts he is failing this nation and failing it miserably.

You post as if you are under the impression that you have more than the tiniest speck of knowledge about that which you are commenting upon.
You do not have any knowledge or idea of what you are talking about, and that is blatantly obvious because you supply no facts,
only baseless and ignorant opinion statements.

 

[Annie]

Obama made a huge blunder in allowing the release of the top secret interrogation techniques against the advise of 4 former CIA directors. This has opened a huge can of worms that will come back and discredit him as a leader. He will appear very weak on national defense which will hurt him with democrats, independents and republicans alike who supported him and voted for him.

The number one concern of this nation right now is the economy, but the very close 2nd is our national security and on both accounts he is failing this nation and failing it miserably.

You post as if you are under the impression that you have more than the tiniest speck of knowledge about that which you are commenting upon.
You do not have any knowledge or idea of what you are talking about, and that is blatantly obvious because you supply no facts,
only baseless and ignorant opinion statements.

and your CV? since you are the one judging others?

 

[Maple]

Have you been watching any of the news stations lately, it's all over Fox. Is this blowing your hopey changy vision of the world, one in which you obviously have had your head stuck in the sand and did not know that the terrorists are at war with us. Remember 9-11?????

THIS PRESIDENT HAS JUST SOLD OUT OUR SECURITY TO FURTHER HIS FAR LEFT AGENDA. IT'S DISGRACEFUL.

I hope you get that nice warm snuggly feeling when you go to bed at night knowing that President Obama and his new hound dog are sitting on the front porch looking out for you, after tying the hands of the professionals in the field of the (CIA) against the advise of 4 former directors and even his own director. What arrogance!!! This President has abandoned his number one responsibility and that is to keep Americans safe.

THIS IS GONNA BE HIS DOWNFALL, IT'S NOT GOING AWAY He opened that can of worms and there is no putting them back in the can. Hope you sleep well at night.

 

[Maple]

This is just from one of the former CIA directors,

– Former CIA Director Michael Hayden says the Obama administration is endangering the country by releasing Justice Department memos that detail the CIA's interrogation techniques authorized by the Bush administration.

Hayden tells The Associated Press the release will give terrorists a precise guide for what to expect in a CIA interrogation if those methods are ever approved for use again.

The Obama administration outlawed the techniques but has a task force reviewing the military's interrogation methods to determine if they are sufficient for CIA use.

Hayden says he worries the revelations will also deter other governments from cooperating with the United States because it shows the U.S. "can't keep anything secret

Feel safer now?????

 

[Maple]

Although the Obama administration has said it will not prosecute CIA agents who used these methods, ABC News reports that in addition to many former CIA directors, several spies have begun speaking out.

Other former CIA officials have also spoken out against the Obama administration's decision to release the memos, saying it has put intelligence gathering operations at risk and demoralized the agency writ large.

"People in the intelligence community have the sense that they're really not being backed up, that this administration is not really giving them their cover that they feel they need," former intelligence officer Mark Lowenthal said.

As the debate continues to intensify about what actions should or shouldn't be taken against former CIA officials, The Times of London reports that the Obama administration may have unexpectedly opened a can of worms. While Obama has said he will not prosecute CIA operatives, under the US Constitution he has no power to determine who should and should not be put on trial.

Amid the list of challenges facing Obama – namely the economy and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – The Times reports that "frustration at the White House was palpable" as the public and government officials continued to focus on the memos. "We really do want to move on and we don't want to look back. It can absorb a lot of time and attention and we have a lot to do," said a senior White House aide cited in the Times piece.

The release of the memos may affect Obama's popularity. The President currently has a 61.8 percent approval rating, but releasing the memos may have damaged his support in Congress where he has only a 34.3 percent approval rating.

In a collection of experts' reviews of Obama's first 100 days in office, an Atlanta Journal Constitution article indicates that Obama may have mishandled the release of the memos, which could hurt him moving ahead.

The Atlanta Journal Constitution cites Audrey Haynes, an associate professor of international affairs at the University of Georgia, as saying the following:

Releasing the memos on torture will be a distraction to other areas; likely this information would have come out anyhow given the various lawsuits being pursued in this area, but the timing could have been delayed, perhaps a bipartisan commission utilized.

Terrorism and Security: A Daily Update
04/26/09
Did CIA 'enhanced interrogation techniques' work or not?
04/23/09
Turkey, Armenia agree on road map to normalize ties
04/22/09
Sri

Feeling safer now???? Because I sure don't. What an idiotic thing for this President to do, he DID NOT have to release those memos but he caved to the far left fringe in his party which makes up less than 5% of the vote. This has got to be the one of the stupidist things I have ever seen any President do. GO FOR IT OBAMA, in 3 1/2 years you will have cooked your own political goose.

 

[Maple]

Washington

The administrations release of classified Bush-era memos on harsh CIA interrogations was delayed for nearly a month in part because of strenuous objections from four former intelligence directors.

Former CIA chiefs Michael Hayden, Porter Goss, George Tenet and John Deutch all told the White House that release of the so-called "torture memos" would compromise intelligence operations, current and former officials say. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to detail internal government discussions.

The former CIA directors also warned that the release would deter foreign intelligence services from sharing information with the United States, and they worried that the memos would be used to target CIA officers, the officials said.

President Barack Obama ultimately overruled those concerns after repeated internal discussions, the officials said.

Filed by Nick Sabloff

Of course he overruled them , he knows whats better than they do. After all he has been a community organizer, a 1 term do nothing but vote for tax increases senator, and a lawyer for Acorn. Of course, he knows how to keep Americans safe, these people are just the stupid dopes who have never done anything to protect Americans.

 

[007]

You seem to have stopped the oblahmabots dead in their tracks Maple. That's not an easy feat, seeing as how brain washed they are. My hats off to you girl.

Great articles. Lots of facts. Liberals HATE facts...

 

[oreo]

Obama made a huge blunder in allowing the release of the top secret interrogation techniques against the advise of 4 former CIA directors. This has opened a huge can of worms that will come back and discredit him as a leader. He will appear very weak on national defense which will hurt him with democrats, independents and republicans alike who supported him and voted for him.

The number one concern of this nation right now is the economy, but the very close 2nd is our national security and on both accounts he is failing this nation and failing it miserably.

You post as if you are under the impression that you have more than the tiniest speck of knowledge about that which you are commenting upon.
You do not have any knowledge or idea of what you are talking about, and that is blatantly obvious because you supply no facts,
only baseless and ignorant opinion statements.

What terrorist was "tortured" or "waterboarded" PRIOR to 9/11?

If you or Obama want to stand on the "point" that enhanced interrogation procedures only creates more terrorists--then with your superior knowledge I want YOU to name one single terrorist that was "tortured" prior to 9/11.

Out of the 3 terrorists that were actually waterboarded--I also would like you to address how "they" were able to telephone their cohurts in terror & describe their torture at the hands of the U.S. military--that would have created more terrorists, as You claim.

How would you CONNECT the dots in the future? Or do you simply believe that someone with the name Barack Husien Obama--that somehow--terrorists love Americans now & there is no longer need to consider us the enemy? This while we're still fighting Al Queda & the Taliban in Afganistan.

Liberals must have the attention span of a NAT. We are at war with an enemy that would do anything to commit mass casualty on the United States. They are there, & they have been waiting patiently for a President Obama. One who is interested in lowering the defenses of this country--emboldening them to make another attempt.

They only need to be right ONCE, we have to be right ALL OF THE TIME--to prevent attacks on this country.

Obama AGAINST the advice of all former CIA chiefs, including former Clinton appointee, George Tenet made a HUGE mistake.

"Because a terrorist will always seek the least path of resistance"

 

[Dr Grump]

What a load of crap....Obama did the right thing. Good on him. About time the spooks stopped thinking they are a law unto themselves....