Non orthodox reasons to tax the wealthy.

Mexicano

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2023
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I will cover two scenarios: 1. The current state of affairs where the US is the main reserve currency . 2. When the US is no longer the main currency reserve (this may take at least 15 years or it may never happen at all).
Scenario 1. The US is the issuer of the main reserve currency.
This means the US government can issue all the debt it needs to run whatever program it wants to run, there will always be someone willing to buy the bonds because the USD is seen as a safe haven.
The problem is that since bondholders are mostly rich people trying to secure their assets, it increases wealth inequality.
This wealth disparity also translates into powerful lobbying groups that create laws that favor the ultra-rich (1%) and in all likelihood don't favor the rest of the 99%. This can include measures like cutting social spending and enacting controls in the healthcare system. This in turn creates a rentier class that is interested in extracting wealth instead of innovating, decreasing productivity. Alas when taxes are too high they can also discourage productivity.
In a nutshell: inequality, weakened internal consumption, the proliferation of a rentier class, decrease of productivity.

Scenario 2. The US is no longer the holder of the main reserve currency (far in the future).
This means the US has no longer a guaranteed positive capital flow.
In addition of the risks of scenario 1 there are new risks:
If interest rates are not high enough , investors may seek other countries to invest their capital. This in turn weakens the dollar increasing the costs of imports, which can also create inflation. The devaluation-> inflation cycle can be averted by applying an industrial policy directed towards securing critical inputs ( energy, minerals, oil, fertilizers) and rebuilding the industrial base.
In a nutshell: the risks of scenario 1 + devaluation risks, inflation risk.
 
Socialists and neo socialists whine about the current economic statis under a democrat regime but they offer no solution. The best way to achieve social equity is to elect Donald Trump.
 
A snore fest thread.

Uhm let’s get down to it:

We. Already. Do. Tax. The. Wealthy. Very. Very. Heavily.
They are taxed heavily in theory, but not in practice, effective tax rates are rather low.
The problem is that the FIRE sector is quite a large chunk of the economy ( 20%) and the trend is that it will continue to grow . In general this means housing and insurance are getting more expensive, while the real economy remains stagnant.

 
I will cover two scenarios: 1. The current state of affairs where the US is the main reserve currency . 2. When the US is no longer the main currency reserve (this may take at least 15 years or it may never happen at all).
Scenario 1. The US is the issuer of the main reserve currency.
This means the US government can issue all the debt it needs to run whatever program it wants to run, there will always be someone willing to buy the bonds because the USD is seen as a safe haven.
The problem is that since bondholders are mostly rich people trying to secure their assets, it increases wealth inequality.
This wealth disparity also translates into powerful lobbying groups that create laws that favor the ultra-rich (1%) and in all likelihood don't favor the rest of the 99%. This can include measures like cutting social spending and enacting controls in the healthcare system. This in turn creates a rentier class that is interested in extracting wealth instead of innovating, decreasing productivity. Alas when taxes are too high they can also discourage productivity.
In a nutshell: inequality, weakened internal consumption, the proliferation of a rentier class, decrease of productivity.

Scenario 2. The US is no longer the holder of the main reserve currency (far in the future).
This means the US has no longer a guaranteed positive capital flow.
In addition of the risks of scenario 1 there are new risks:
If interest rates are not high enough , investors may seek other countries to invest their capital. This in turn weakens the dollar increasing the costs of imports, which can also create inflation. The devaluation-> inflation cycle can be averted by applying an industrial policy directed towards securing critical inputs ( energy, minerals, oil, fertilizers) and rebuilding the industrial base.
In a nutshell: the risks of scenario 1 + devaluation risks, inflation risk.


Tax the rich is just a rubes chant and nothing more because they already pay a lot of taxes and a little more won't change a thing.

Fact is the rich can afford tax attorneys and lawyers to help keep as much money as they can. I for one do not blame them. If I could find a way to pay less taxes you better believe I would in a heartbeat, no one wants to pay taxes




It's just like trump said when debating Hillary, he uses the tax laws as they are written. If they want the rich to pay more taxes then they need to change the tax laws. But they won't do it because that would effect them, it would effect their rich friends and it would effect their rich donors
 
I don't mind paying my taxes. I overpay on purpose just to keep them off my back. Hate the paperwork. As all my income is automatically reported, I wish they would just send me a bill.
 
They are taxed heavily in theory, but not in practice, effective tax rates are rather low.
The problem is that the FIRE sector is quite a large chunk of the economy ( 20%) and the trend is that it will continue to grow . In general this means housing and insurance are getting more expensive, while the real economy remains stagnant.

They pay the vast majority of all the government “revenues”. Haven’t you seen the actual figures?

 
Tax the rich is just a rubes chant and nothing more because they already pay a lot of taxes and a little more won't change a thing.

Fact is the rich can afford tax attorneys and lawyers to help keep as much money as they can. I for one do not blame them. If I could find a way to pay less taxes you better believe I would in a heartbeat, no one wants to pay taxes




It's just like trump said when debating Hillary, he uses the tax laws as they are written. If they want the rich to pay more taxes then they need to change the tax laws. But they won't do it because that would effect them, it would effect their rich friends and it would effect their rich donors

You can do as you will , I am only pointing out that such actions ( an effective low tax rate) are not without consequences. And those consequences are quite tangible.
 
A snore fest thread.

Uhm let’s get down to it:

We. Already. Do. Tax. The. Wealthy. Very. Very. Heavily.
This thread is not about taxing the wealthy. It is about rent seeking, which effectively is a tax on all of us that redistributes wealth to the already wealthy. What we need to do to expand the frontier curve, to increase GDP, to expand incomes for all Americans, is simple, make more pie. Rent seeking is when resources are used, not to make more pie, but to get more of the pie that is already there. Think about it, using resources without creating anything. Worse, it is using resources to take something away from someone else.

Mexicano has mentioned the increased share of GDP garnished by the FIRE industries, but I would focus on just the "F"--"finance". The finance industries share of the overall economy has quadrupled in the last forty years, thank you Ronald Reagan--just had to throw that in there. What have we got for it?

But during that time, trend growth, of course, has not grown. And there have been a number of metrics about number of startups falling, entrepreneurial zeal going down by a variety of measures, R&D spending going down relative to, say, share buybacks in companies, that show that business has actually suffered as finance has gotten bigger. And there’s a lot of studies—it’s all cited in the books, so—and there’s smart people who’ve done some of these studies on the—on the stage here, so I won’t go into them. But basically, by a lot of metrics, the size of finance in the U.S. has started to slow growth. And, in fact, there’s some studies, BIS studies and others, that show that that happens actually when finance is just half the size that it is in the U.S. right now.


From the link I first posted in this thread,

And in the bizarre world of a rent-seeking market many of the normal rules of economics are turned on their head. More competition results in less efficiency (Tullock 1980). Political agents profit by doing nothing (McChesney 1987, 1997). Entrepreneurial activity hampers growth (Baumol 1990; Murphy et al. 1991, 1993). And in the end, even those who are privileged often fail to reap above-normal returns to their investments (Tullock 1975).

As the finance industry has continued to consume greater amounts of the total economy it has become less efficient. And it is all due to rent-seeking.

Back to the link in this post,

. So, if you go back to kind of, you know, the original nature of what the capital markets were supposed to do to business, they’re supposed to take everybody’s savings, you put it in financial institutions, the financial institutions lend that money out to business, business grows and creates jobs. Actually, there are some deep academic studies that show about only 15 percent of all the financial flows in the U.S. financial institutions right now are going to business lending. The rest of it is basically trading against existing assets—stocks, bonds, houses, the real estate market being a large part of that, of course.

When the capital markets do what they are supposed to do, which in reality is make more pie-- "business grows and creates jobs.", the economy benefits. But when the capital markets devote the majority of their resources in garnishing more of the pie that is already out there, "The rest of it is basically trading against existing assets", we have a misallocation of resources, growth is stifled, opportunities are limited, and growing portions of the economy are dedicated to what I said in the beginning, resources are dedicated to taking away something from someone else, nothing is created, and those dedicated resources are lost.

This might all appear complicated, but it really isn't. It is kind of common damn sense.
 
I will cover two scenarios: 1. The current state of affairs where the US is the main reserve currency . 2. When the US is no longer the main currency reserve (this may take at least 15 years or it may never happen at all).
Scenario 1. The US is the issuer of the main reserve currency.
This means the US government can issue all the debt it needs to run whatever program it wants to run, there will always be someone willing to buy the bonds because the USD is seen as a safe haven.
The problem is that since bondholders are mostly rich people trying to secure their assets, it increases wealth inequality.
This wealth disparity also translates into powerful lobbying groups that create laws that favor the ultra-rich (1%) and in all likelihood don't favor the rest of the 99%. This can include measures like cutting social spending and enacting controls in the healthcare system. This in turn creates a rentier class that is interested in extracting wealth instead of innovating, decreasing productivity. Alas when taxes are too high they can also discourage productivity.
In a nutshell: inequality, weakened internal consumption, the proliferation of a rentier class, decrease of productivity.

Scenario 2. The US is no longer the holder of the main reserve currency (far in the future).
This means the US has no longer a guaranteed positive capital flow.
In addition of the risks of scenario 1 there are new risks:
If interest rates are not high enough , investors may seek other countries to invest their capital. This in turn weakens the dollar increasing the costs of imports, which can also create inflation. The devaluation-> inflation cycle can be averted by applying an industrial policy directed towards securing critical inputs ( energy, minerals, oil, fertilizers) and rebuilding the industrial base.
In a nutshell: the risks of scenario 1 + devaluation risks, inflation risk.
the wealthy are not only already taxed but taxed at a higher rate than anyone else,,

anything more would be theft,,
 
Damn odd choice of thread headline, then.
They are related topics. Financialization and rent-seeking seem to be the preferred way to increase wealth.
And why wouldn't they be? As long as the system allows increasing the money supply through credit and banks get bailed out it is easier to increase the wealth through financial speculation than through actual investment.
 
They are related topics. Financialization and rent-seeking seem to be the preferred way to increase wealth.
And why wouldn't they be? As long as the system allows increasing the money supply through credit and banks get bailed out it is easier to increase the wealth through financial speculation than through actual investment.
Nope. It’s a misleading thread title. Ta intentional.

As for you; go start your own thread. 👍
 
A snore fest thread.
Uhm let’s get down to it:
We. Already. Do. Tax. The. Wealthy. Very. Very. Heavily.
The wealthy are still gaining while the rest are losing.
We need to remove the cap on SS, remove the capital gains tax break, and add a new transaction tax on financial transactions.
Every American owes $100,000 as his share of the Debt, every taxpayer owes $250,000. How do we start paying that down?

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