NATO Is panicking after Russia’s Kinzhal hypersonic Missiles smashed Kiev’s Patriots

[para bellum]

Satellite imagery from the 17th shows no damage at Kiev Int'l Airport.

So sad...

 

[ESay]

Well, there was a report of the Ukrainian military that they shoot down six Kinzhals at this day. Maybe the Russians really fired that number of the rockets and some of them hit the target.

 

[Litwin]

Well, there was a report of the Ukrainian military that they shoot down six Kinzhals at this day. Maybe the Russians really fired that number of the rockets and some of them hit the target.

 

[Baron]

ivan , you are so funny )))

And you Sharon are f....wit, ( mudak )

 

[para bellum]

Well, there was a report of the Ukrainian military that they shoot down six Kinzhals at this day. Maybe the Russians really fired that number of the rockets and some of them hit the target.

The attack and claimed intercepts happened the day before this satellite image, the video from the Kiev Citycam showed one (presumed) impact on May 16 at 2 a.m.

But maybe the Khinzals flew around the earth a few times and hit the airport next day, those Khinzals are very special missiles!

 

[Mushroom]

Patriot Radar Station and Five Missile Batteries Destroyed in Russian Hypersonic Strike on Kiev

Oh, that is so wrong.

Five batteries? Ukraine does not even have five batteries, it has one and maybe two at most.

 

[Mushroom]

Of course USA starts to deny the Patriot's failure to stop Kinzhal
Otherwise which idiot will purchase them and NATO stays practically defenseless

And your reference is... a former Cavalry commander?

Sorry, that is about as realistic as having some Destroyer commander giving "expert opinion" on the capabilities of the B-1 bomber.

If it was an opinion of the effectiveness of Russian Armor and tactics, I would take him seriously. But he is trying to talk about something very much out of his depth, as the most he would have commanded in Air Defense would have been some AVENGER HMMWVs.

 

[ESay]

The attack and claimed intercepts happened the day before this satellite image, the video from the Kiev Citycam showed one (presumed) impact on May 16 at 2 a.m.

But maybe the Khinzals flew around the earth a few times and hit the airport next day, those Khinzals are very special missiles!

Yes, there is no visual evidence that the Patriot was hit. And if it was not about Ukrainian claimes about 6 downed Kinzhals, it would be possible to forget about it and move on.

But this claims give some food for thoughts. If there were really 6 Kinzhals, then what happened to them? All 6 were downed? Okay, maybe. But that would mean that a Kinzhal is a piece of crap and is worth nothing. Again, there is no evidence. Not a single piece of metal.

The Russians destroyed the whole system with 6 Kinzhals? Maybe. But again, there is no evidence.

As always, the truth is somewhere in between.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yes, there is no visual evidence that the Patriot was hit. And if it was not about Ukrainian claimes about 6 downed Kinzhals, it would be possible to forget about it and move on.

But this claims give some food for thoughts. If there were really 6 Kinzhals, then what happened to them? All 6 were downed? Okay, maybe. But that would mean that a Kinzhal is a piece of crap and is worth nothing. Again, there is no evidence. Not a single piece of metal.

The Russians destroyed the whole system with 6 Kinzhals? Maybe. But again, there is no evidence.

As always, the truth is somewhere in between.

It was always just a matter of time until someone found a solution to hypersonic missiles, at least to the low end kind Russia has, and it's not at all difficult to believe the Patriot system is the answer. This was the first time the Kinzhal had been tested against the Patriot system, and the Kinzhal failed the test.

The United States Department of Defense has confirmed that Ukraine's military has successfully shot down a hypersonic missile called “Kinzhal” (NATO reporting name Killjoy) using the Patriot air defense system.

The Pentagon spokesperson, Patrick Ryder, confirmed the news and stated that the system is part of a broader range of air defense assets that the United States and the international community have provided to Ukraine.

The Ukrainian Air Force Commander, Mykola Oleshchuk, had reported last week that the Patriot system had shot down a Kinzhal missile launched by Russia during a strike on Ukraine on May 4. Oleshchuk stated that a missile was fired by a MiG-31K aircraft from the Russian territory and was shot down over the Kyiv region.

Pentagon Confirmed Patriot System Shot Down a Hypersonic ‘Kinzhal’ Missile Over Kyiv Region

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed in August 2022 that the so-called hypersonic air-launched missile was “impossible to detect or intercept.”

www.kyivpost.com

 

[ESay]

It was always just a matter of time until someone found a solution to hypersonic missiles, at least to the low end kind Russia has, and it's not at all difficult to believe the Patriot system is the answer. This was the first time the Kinzhal had been tested against the Patriot system, and the Kinzhal failed the test.

The United States Department of Defense has confirmed that Ukraine's military has successfully shot down a hypersonic missile called “Kinzhal” (NATO reporting name Killjoy) using the Patriot air defense system.

The Pentagon spokesperson, Patrick Ryder, confirmed the news and stated that the system is part of a broader range of air defense assets that the United States and the international community have provided to Ukraine.

The Ukrainian Air Force Commander, Mykola Oleshchuk, had reported last week that the Patriot system had shot down a Kinzhal missile launched by Russia during a strike on Ukraine on May 4. Oleshchuk stated that a missile was fired by a MiG-31K aircraft from the Russian territory and was shot down over the Kyiv region.

Pentagon Confirmed Patriot System Shot Down a Hypersonic ‘Kinzhal’ Missile Over Kyiv Region

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed in August 2022 that the so-called hypersonic air-launched missile was “impossible to detect or intercept.”

www.kyivpost.com

I really hope so. I definitely want to see more Patriots in Ukraine and Western jets as soon as possible.

 

[Ringo]

The Kinzhal attack on the Patriot system likely resulted in NATO mercs getting liquidated. According to Military Watch Magazine, it's not possible to train proficient operators in the time it took from decision to deployment. Given that one system came from the US and the other from Germany, the Patriot operating personnel in Kiev are likely German and American. It seems Western personnel are performing many roles in Ukraine, including extensive CIA stealth networks.

 

[Ringo]

The G7 leaders made a statement: "Mr. Putin made a fatal mistake by underestimating us. We would have taken all of the first seven places in the competition of the half-wits."

 

[Mushroom]

It was always just a matter of time until someone found a solution to hypersonic missiles

It was never a problem.

Missiles have long been able to shoot down hypersonic aircraft. The only reason the SR-71 was safe was that the ramjet allowed it to fly so high, over 85,000 feet so it was out of range of Soviet missiles and Soviet fighters with conventional jet engines could not operate at that altitude.

The entire idea that anything hypersonic is immune to missiles or fighters is entirely a myth, and one that makes little sense. Especially as missiles are not fired behind a target and try to catch it, but they are fired in front of it and try to zoom in at a nose to nose profile. Every time somebody tries to say "der, but it can't catch a hypersonic missile", I just shake my head and laugh. The preferred angle of attack for air defense has always been at an angle from the side, or from the front. Never from the rear, as it is almost impossible to hit even a fighter as it is flying away from the launching point. It would be like trying to hit one of the old Navy Pegesus class hydrofoils from the rear with a torpedo. Yes, the torpedoes indeed did travel faster than even the hydrofoils, but as the saying goes "a stern chase is a long chase" and the attacked ship actually gains some advantages in that kind of situation. Make one fast course correction that the weapon can not follow in time, and it just missed the target and likely will not be able to acquire again.

 

[para bellum]

But this claims give some food for thoughts. If there were really 6 Kinzhals, then what happened to them? All 6 were downed? Okay, maybe. But that would mean that a Kinzhal is a piece of crap and is worth nothing. Again, there is no evidence. Not a single piece of metal.

I have seen fragments of a downed missile that was either a Khinzal or Iskander. They are the same missile, so you can't differentiate by looks. The only difference is the trajectory.

I have only seen one pic, it was identified by the fins and the decoy dispensers that are arranged around the rear of the rocket. The other pics that have been identified as Khinzal are questionable and probably misidentified.

The Russians destroyed the whole system with 6 Kinzhals? Maybe. But again, there is no evidence.

A Patriot battery typically has 10-12 pieces, not counting support vehicles. The radar, the control station, the antenna group, and the generator make up the nerve center, and they need to be in relatively close proximity to each other. There are typically 6-8 launchers in a battery. The launchers have their own power supply and communications link, so they aren't deployed all bunched up- they can be spread out over a wide area and do not require a physical connection to the engagement module.

Ukraine has received 2 Patriot batteries, and a third is upcoming. The number of launchers hasn't been disclosed, You also have one SAMP/T battery with 4 launchers, which is equivalent to Patriot in terms of range and capability.

The Pentagon said that the generator and "parts of the electronic systems" took minor damage from flying debris, but were never taken offline during the attack. There were no direct hits, and both systems are fully operational.

You can lose a part of the system, it will be replaced, there are back-ups available. They are a prime target for Russia, losses are to be expected just like anything else. It's a reality that people need to get used to.

 

[Mushroom]

A Patriot battery typically has 10-12 pieces, not counting support vehicles. The radar, the control station, the antenna group, and the generator make up the nerve center, and they need to be in relatively close proximity to each other. There are typically 6-8 launchers in a battery. The launchers have their own power supply and communications link, so they aren't deployed all bunched up- they can be spread out over a wide area and do not require a physical connection to the engagement module.

Well, typical emplacement is around 100 meters apart. But they are rarely dispersed much more than that as the crews have to be able to reach them for service and maintenance.

And although they do not "require" a physical connection, they are almost every time. Via a fiber optic cable strand up to 1.2 km away from the control van.

And while they can be operated via radios, that is almost never done as radio signals can be jammed and scrambled, rendering any launchers connected in that way inoperable. Such a deployment might make sense if the opposition is not much more capable than say the Palestinians or those fighting in Yemen. But I can't think anybody would use the radio link capabilities against a more sophisticated enemy like Russia or China which have some sophisticated jamming capabilities.

And the Antenna-Mast Group is not really required for a single battery to operate. That is part of the network that allows the Battalion to link with the various batteries operating under it. In a single Battery deployment it is not even needed so you can eliminate the AMG. Just the EPP, RADAR, command van, and launchers.

This is not unlike what an actual Battery might look like when emplaced. In this instance with 4 launchers in the top center, and the fifth and sixth on the left and lower left. And in this example, it is about half a kilometer from the crew area to the launchers. That is a hell of a distance to be expected to traverse every 2 hours or so, at any time of the day or night.

 

[para bellum]

And the Antenna-Mast Group is not really required for a single battery to operate. That is part of the network that allows the Battalion to link with the various batteries operating under it. In a single Battery deployment it is not even needed so you can eliminate the AMG. Just the EPP, RADAR, command van, and launchers.

Most of what I would ask can't be answered in a public forum, but this:

The AMG is not needed for mid-course updates?

That emplacement sort of matches the way the launchers appeared to be setup the night of the big missile strike. About 2/3 of the missiles appearing to come from closely spaced launchers and 1/3 coming from 2 launchers that were placed further away.

Without knowing any specifics, at least 2 of the assistance packages for Ukraine included "equipment to integrate Western air defense launchers, missiles, and radars with Ukraine’s air defense systems".

It would be interesting to know what that actually entails...

 

[Mushroom]

The AMG is not needed for mid-course updates?

Nope, not at all. That is all between the command van and the RADAR. Remember, the RADAR itself guides the missile.

The AMG is used by the various Batteries and Battalion to coordinate their operations, through what is known as PADIL. The PATRIOT Data Information Link. This allows them to share data between each other, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual firing or guidance of the missiles. It is essentially a private WAN between the Battalion and their Batteries (and sometimes Battalions and Brigade). At the Battalion level, it lets them "see" what all of the RADAR units see in a single display, and all of the targets they are engaging.

That emplacement sort of matches the way the launchers appeared to be setup the night of the big missile strike. About 2/3 of the missiles appearing to come from closely spaced launchers and 1/3 coming from 2 launchers that were placed further away.

And yes, most of the firing appeared to be consistent with a PAC-3 launcher literally firing as fast as it could. I saw that and literally just shook my head, as it made me think of "Mad Minute" in an infantry defensive position. ADA should never try to operate in that way, for that exact reason. They soon run out of missiles and then have nothing left to defend with. I was able to identify at least one PAC-3 and two PAC-2 launchers, before it became just a complete mess and I decided it was not worth the bother of trying to map out exactly how many launchers were firing.

However, it did appear to be consistent with a US or German Battery. That would be one PAC-3 launcher and five PAC-2 launchers.

And that is largely just training and experience. Most US crews before they deploy to a war zone would have 2 years or more of experience in various forms of air battles, literally hundreds of hours sitting in the command van running simulations via RADAR injects. And it is even more intense when deployed, as then they will on average go through 10 or more 1-3 hour long theatre wide air battles a week.

And even then, mistakes can be made.

U.S. forces in Qatar accidentally fired a Patriot missile at a farm in the Gulf Arab state but caused no injuries, the Pentagon said on Tuesday.

The U.S. military is investigating the missile launch, first reported by Al Jazeera television. The Patriot is an anti-missile system.

“Those things are not supposed to accidentally discharge,” said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman. “It was not supposed to happen.”

Whitman said the missile was fired into an unpopulated farm area. The missile was fired during a training exercise, said Lt. Gen. Carter Ham, director of operations for the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Misfired Patriot missile hits farm in Qatar

U.S. forces in Qatar accidentally fired a Patriot missile at a farm in the Gulf Arab state but caused no injuries, the Pentagon said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

There are several things the operators are supposed to do during those training exercises, two of the steps are changing their feed from the RADAR itself to the inject, and to send all fire commands to the inject system and not the missiles themselves. In that 2007 incident they missed the latter step, and when trying to fire in the exercise they launched an actual missile.

Ooops.

And yes, the training is always and only done on the actual system that they use for combat, there are no "insulated systems" that are only for training. But I can promise that those operators in Ukraine had nowhere near that much training, probably just a rushed 60 day course then they were sent into the thick of it. Before we deployed in 2009, we spent two 30 day intense training cycles back to back at one of those facilities (running 10 air battles a day of 1-2 hours each). And even stateside, we will go through such a training iteration several times a year for 1 to 2 weeks at a time.

Not including other missions, like say being sent out for 30 days to defend Atropia once again from an invasion by Donovia.

Oh, and yes I am also being very careful in what I say, and vetting myself via several sources already in the public access.

 

[Mushroom]

Without knowing any specifics, at least 2 of the assistance packages for Ukraine included "equipment to integrate Western air defense launchers, missiles, and radars with Ukraine’s air defense systems".

And from that, it seems that in reality is going to be nothing more than integrating their existing systems with PADIL. They will not be able to use the systems of each other, they will simply be completely incompatible (like trying to hook up a computer with Token Ring onto an ETHERNET network). However, it might be possible to combine the feed from the various systems so that the Battalion commanders and higher can get a unified air defense picture so they can more easily coordinate their defense.

I know that is something the US can do, as we have unified systems that can take the feed from Air Force, Navy, Marine, and Army systems and integrate them into a single display. That was how I was able to watch the boats dancing around off of Somalia during the Maersk Alabama incident. Literally watching the RADAR images from the US destroyers that were in the area.

And that is where PADIL comes in, as Battalions feed their data through it to Brigade, and it then sends it forward to the DoD system so all others can see it. If the fit hit the shan in the Persian Gulf tomorrow, I know that in the Pentagon they would have people there watching the air battle in real time via that system. And likely the President would be watching it also in his war room.

But it is one way, all they can do is monitor what is going on.

 

[para bellum]

Nope, not at all. That is all between the command van and the RADAR. Remember, the RADAR itself guides the missile.

Well yes, but you still need some communications to provide mid-course updates.

Maneuvering target.
Missile is launched.
Target detects launch, maneuvers to beam missile (or whatever)
Radar tracks target maneuver, calculates new heading for missile.
Target update sent to missile how???

There is a period of time between the launch and when the seeker takes over for the terminal guidance. The Patriot radar is still in charge, but it can't communicate directly with the missile without a datalink.

edit to add: I found my answer, you're right. The TVM downlink and Command uplink are Tx/Rx via the radar set, not the AMG like I was assuming.

 

[Silver Cat]

Does anyone remember the drone attack on the Kremlin a few weeks ago? The only reasonable answer would have been a Kingal attack on some government building in Kiev.

As long as the Putin regime hasn't been able to do even that, you stupid Russian clowns had better shut up. You sound silly and ridiculous.

But, for a some reason Zelenskiy is still not returning in Ukraine. Funny, isn't it?
It's stupid - just to scratch a roof of a building.
Killing Zelenskiy will be much more interesting thing. And he knows it.