Ukraine in NATO?!

[rightwinger]

Circular logic,

Russia told the US during the BUSH admin that admission of Ukraine into NATO was the reddest of their red lines. So we ran a coup, ousted the Democratically elected pro Russian leader and installed a pro western leader, and kept moving them toward NATO membership.

If Russia entered into an anti American alliance with Mexico and gave them arms, training. etc we would 100% not let that stand. Using your logic any intervention by the US would validate Mexico's alliance with Russia and Russia's meddling in Mexico.

We've moved the NATO borders closer to Russia not the other way around.

We had no intention of admitting Ukraine or Sweden or Finland into NATO until……..
Putin is his own worst enemy

 

[Couchpotato]

Why can’t I post in this thread???

 

[Couchpotato]

rightwinger

Cool story, also a fantasy.


At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit that Ukraine would eventually become a NATO member with the MAP as an integral part of the process, and Ukraine's right to determine its future dand foreign policy without outside interference.[7] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO "as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do."

Unless of course that country is aligned with the desires of the west is I sure what he meant to say….


wouldnt let me post the link but thats from the “Ukraine NATO relations“ wiki.

 

[Couchpotato]

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red Front]

Im am referring to the rank and file voter. You are referring to the swamp.

The so-called "rank and file" elect the swamp people into office. The problem isn't just one party but is found in both.

 

[el midgetron]

The so-called "rank and file" elect the swamp people into office. The problem isn't just one party but is found in both.

 

[Red Front]

View attachment 922443

Why did he fill his administration full of swamp people? His administration was "The Swamp", with several former bank execs from Goldman Sachs like Steve Bannon and Steve Mnuchin, and neocon warmongers like John Bolton. You're clueless, thinking Trump is your buddy. He pretends to care about the working class; you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

 

[el midgetron]

Why did he fill his administration full of swamp people? His administration was "The Swamp", with several former bank execs from Goldman Sachs like Steve Bannon and Steve Mnuchin, and neocon warmongers like John Bolton. You're clueless, thinking Trump is your buddy. He pretends to care about the working class; you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

They attack him the way they do for a reason. Whatever i
he is guilty of, at least he hasn’t killed the amount of poor people that communism has….

 

[Red Front]

They attack him the way they do for a reason. Whatever i
he is guilty of, at least he hasn’t killed the amount of poor people that communism has….

Capitalist imperialism has killed a lot more people than communism, so spare me the death toll arguments. As a defender of capitalist imperialism, you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your crooked, feculent finger at communists.

 

[Couchpotato]

Capitalist imperialism has killed a lot more people than communism, so spare me the death toll arguments. As a defender of capitalist imperialism, you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your crooked, feculent finger at communists.

You’ve lost that argument over and over.

 

[Red Front]

You’ve lost that argument over and over.

Only in your ignorant mind have I ever lost such an argument.

 

[Couchpotato]

Only in your ignorant mind have I ever lost such an argument. It doesn't matter what more you crap out of your keyboard in response to this post, that's always the case.

Sure champ. Have you moved out of this capitalistic hellhole and to your socialist paradise yet?

 

[Red Front]

Sure champ. Have you moved out of this capitalistic hellhole and to your socialist paradise yet?

Capitalist hellholes will be transformed into socialist economies as technology continues to advance in the area of automation and artificial intelligence. Non-profit, centrally planned, democratic mass production is inevitable, thanks to advanced 21st-century technology.

Socialists don't have to leave anywhere, they can stay here in the United States (the big bully capitalist empire) and turn it socialist (it's inevitable). If anyone should leave somewhere it's you, not socialists like me. Stop supporting the US federal government's brutal economic sanctions regime against countries that identify as socialist, or you don't have the ideological luxury or leverage to say socialism doesn't work.

After WW2, the US became the exclusive holder of the world's reserve currency, giving it control over most of the world's economies. Compared to Western Europe, the Soviets, and East Asia, the US came out of the war unscathed, so it became the manufacturing hub of the world, raising the standard of living for all Americans, beyond anything experienced before. Unfortunately, Ronald Reagan and his right-wing, wealthy capitalist handlers handed the US economy to Wall Street, turning it into a casino economy. Whatever you right-wingers touch, you destroy.

 

[Couchpotato]

Capitalist hellholes will be transformed into socialist economies as technology continues to advance in the area of automation and artificial intelligence. Non-profit, centrally planned, democratic mass production is inevitable, thanks to advanced 21st-century technology.

Socialists don't have to leave anywhere, they can stay here in the United States (the big bully capitalist empire) and turn it socialist (it's inevitable). If anyone should leave somewhere it's you, not socialists like me. Stop supporting the US federal government's brutal economic sanctions regime against countries that identify as socialist, or you don't have the ideological luxury or leverage to say socialism doesn't work.

After WW2, the US became the exclusive holder of the world's reserve currency, giving it control over most of the world's economies. Compared to Western Europe, the Soviets, and East Asia, the US came out of the war unscathed, so it became the manufacturing hub of the world, raising the standard of living for all Americans, beyond anything experienced before. Unfortunately, Ronald Reagan and his right-wing, wealthy capitalist handlers handed the US economy to Wall Street, turning it into a casino economy. Whatever you right-wingers touch, you destroy.

So no then? Still here in this terrible place where you get to do what you want, spew your bullshit rhetoric about failed government systems without reprisal from the Government and take advantage of all the things the evil capitalists have given you access to? That's what I figured.

 

[Red Front]

So no then? Still here in this terrible place where you get to do what you want, spew your bullshit rhetoric about failed government systems without reprisal from the Government and take advantage of all the things the evil capitalists have given you access to? That's what I figured.

Of course not, we're not leaving, you leave. We're transforming this place into a socialist society, whether you like it or not. Stop supporting a government that imposes economic sanctions upon socialist countries, or you have no right to complain about socialists living here.

Capitalism can't survive without socialism, that's why the government has to step in every few years to bail it out, lest the economy collapses. Without socialism, you wouldn't even have an economy in this country.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly

Without socialism, or plenty of government interventions, capitalism crumbles.

 

[Couchpotato]

Of course not, we're not leaving, you leave. We're transforming this place into a socialist society, whether you like it or not. Stop supporting a government that imposes economic sanctions upon socialist countries, or you have no right to complain about socialists living here.

Capitalism can't survive without socialism, that's why the government has to step in every few years to bail it out, lest the economy collapses. Without socialism, you wouldn't even have an economy in this country.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly

Without socialism, or plenty of government interventions, capitalism crumbles.

Sure Buddy. You keep believing that. You should move to China and talk about how bad the Government is there. If you get out of the reeducation camps you can tell us how awesome it was. After that you can try it in NK. I'll wait. Hell I'll start a go fund me to buy your ticket.

 

[Red Front]

Sure Buddy. You keep believing that. You should move to China and talk about how bad the Government is there. If you get out of the reeducation camps you can tell us how awesome it was. After that you can try it in NK. I'll wait. Hell I'll start a go fund me to buy your ticket.

I'm not Chinese, I'm an American, so why would I leave to another country? If anyone should leave this country it's you. This country has its own injustices and oppression, so it makes no sense to pretend America doesn't have its own problems. American society has its version of "re-education" camps in the form of societal cancelation (being canceled), losing your livelihood because of your politics or social ideals. There are many challenges that the American working class has to deal with that aren't prevalent in Western Europe with its more socialist, mixed economies. So your disingenuous portrayal of America being a "capitalist paradise" couldn't be further from the truth.

My mother and her husband had to file for bankruptcy 15 years ago when they were in their 50s, due to a medical emergency, and their private health insurance not covering the cost of the treatment. My step-father almost died, due to not being able to afford the health coverage he needed, forcing him and my mother to become dirt poor, to qualify for Medicaid. That doesn't occur in Western Europe, where socialism and capitalism work together to provide the public with everything they need. Here in America due to ignorant people like yourself, the pursuit of profits is the top priority, rather than creating a society where everyone has their needs met and live well.

I don't have to move to Europe to enjoy what they have there, because I and every American can have that here. I'm for socialism here, not somewhere else, hence your assertion that American socialists are morally obligated to move somewhere else, is silly. You move.

 

[el midgetron]

Capitalist imperialism has killed a lot more people than communism, so spare me the death toll arguments. As a defender of capitalist imperialism, you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your crooked, feculent finger at communists.

Capitalism and the free market have saved more lives than communism is ever capable of. How many live saving medicines have been developed in communist countries? How many innovations in treatments for serious diseases?

The commie posting about “capitalism” on their smart phone…

FFS, the most successful communist county in the world today “Chi-na“ has forced labor and concentration camps. The people outside the major cities are so poor they eat dogs.

 

[Red Front]

Capitalism and the free market have saved more lives than communism is ever capable of. How many live saving medicines have been developed in communist countries? How many innovations in treatments for serious diseases?

The commie posting about “capitalism” on their smart phone…

FFS, the most successful communist county in the world today “Chi-na“ has forced labor and concentration camps. The people outside the major cities are so poor they eat dogs.

You're spouting nonsense. The so-called "free market" only exists in your fantasy world, because it relies heavily on the government to exist, hence it's not "free" in any meaningful way. Every few years the government has to bail out the capitalists with public funds, to the tune of trillions of dollars to stop the economy from collapsing and plunging the nation into social unrest and civil war.

Suppose we factor in the tens of millions of lives that have been ruined and lost from the capitalist-imperialist pursuit of profits and power, through wars, coups, and crony capitalism. In that case, it makes communists look like saints with halos glowing over their heads.

As far as your stupid comments about smartphones and China. The Soviets invented the first mobile phones:

Why did the first Soviet mobile phone in 1957 never go into production? (PHOTOS)

For several years, citizens of the Soviet Union lived in imminent anticipation of being able to talk to one another from anywhere. The invention was...

www.rbth.com

​

If it weren't for the US Federal Government there would be no smartphones or Internet:

​

Chinese workers aren't "forced" and there are no "concentration camps", most Chinese with few exceptions are happy with how the government has improved their standard of living and is managing China's economy. China is a mixed economy with plenty of central planning and yet it's incredibly successful, and that's why American elites hate it.

​

Capitalism can't be "free" because it always needs government infrastructure and services. Without it capitalism collapses. In other words, capitalism needs socialism to function. Socialism will inevitably replace capitalism due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence.

 

[el midgetron]

You're spouting nonsense. The so-called "free market" only exists in your fantasy world, because it relies heavily on the government to exist, hence it's not "free" in any meaningful way. Every few years the government has to bail out the capitalists with public funds, to the tune of trillions of dollars to stop the economy from collapsing and plunging the nation into social unrest and civil war.

Seems like “every few years“ is still better than “all the time”. In communism the government bails out some communism jerk all the time.