Native English Speakers

[SmedlyButler]

I've heard this from several sources; LINK

Physiological studies have found that speaking two or more languages
is a great asset to the cognitive process. The brains of bilingual people operate differently than single language speakers, and these differences offer several mental benefits.

Below are seven cognitive advantages to learning a foreign language. Many of these attributes are only apparent in people who speak multiple languages regularly – if you haven’t spoken a foreign tongue since your A levels, your brain might not be reaping these bilingual benefits. However, people who begin language study in their adult lives can still achieve the same levels of fluency as a young learner, and still reap the same mental benefits, too.

You become smarter

Speaking a foreign language improves the functionality of your brain by challenging it to recognise, negotiate meaning, and communicate in different language systems. This skill boosts your ability to negotiate meaning in other problem-solving tasks as well.

• >> 10 easiest foreign languages to learn: in pictures

Students who study foreign languages tend to score better on standardised tests than their monolingual peers, particularly in the categories of maths, reading, and vocabulary.

 

[Pogo]

Allegedly from Mark Twain:

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter c would be dropped to be replased either by k or s, and likewise x would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which c would be retained would be the ch formation, which will be dealt with later.

Year 2 might reform w spelling, so that which and one would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish y replasing it with i and Iear 4 might fiks the g/j anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.

Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez c, yand x — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais ch,sh, and th rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

Sooo.... basically he predicted texting. Awesome!


In any event, as an avid writer and reader, I am quite fond of our English or whatever you wish to call it (Engrish is the one I hear most often.) That said, I have attempted to teach myself French, German, and Spanish, unfortunately without having regular contact with anyone who speaks any of those languages plus English, I've been both unable to understand the nuances, and find I'm unable to retain it. Unfortunately they don't have any 'open' classes for them in my area that I am aware of.

...Anyone here interested in teaching me the nuances of French, German, or Spanish? I'm a quick learner

You are correct; it's best to be immersed in it. That way your forced (shouldn't say 'forced' -- it sounds like work) to ingest the lingua franca from everything that happens around you all day. Way better than a daily exercise where you know you're doing an exercise rather than applying to your day.

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily.

Within the confines of this platform you could always start threads in those respective languages and restrict to those languages, for what it's worth. Given a native or fluent speaker you could always poke them with questions on the finer points of grammar and such.
.

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning.

That too --- for me music more than TV/movies. I learned a whole lot of Portuguese that way.

 

[Unkotare]

You are correct; it's best to be immersed in it. That way your [sic] forced (shouldn't say 'forced' -- it sounds like work) to ingest the lingua franca from everything that happens around you all day. Way better than a daily exercise where you know you're doing an exercise rather than applying to your day....

Well, that's simplifying it a bit too much. Depending on one's goals and circumstances CALP is as important as BICS, but your statement seems to value the latter at the expense of the former.

 

[Pogo]

You are correct; it's best to be immersed in it. That way your [sic] forced (shouldn't say 'forced' -- it sounds like work) to ingest the lingua franca from everything that happens around you all day. Way better than a daily exercise where you know you're doing an exercise rather than applying to your day....

Well, that's simplifying it a bit too much. Depending on one's goals and circumstances CALP is as important as BICS, but your statement seems to value the latter at the expense of the former.

Not meant to be a value judgment between the two but rather a personal observation on 'what works' to address the poster's comment on learning -- particularly initial learning. I used both to learn French but being immersed in it (i.e. living in France, and more to the point shifting into that mind mode of heightened sensual awareness that necessarily comes with being a traveller/foreigner) taught me way many times more of practical value than any other method.

It left some holes in the finer points of, say, grammar, but when I came out of there I could communicate with anybody, which was certainly not the case going in despite all the dry left-brained prep that preceded it.

 

[Unkotare]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

 

[Unkotare]

.

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning.

That too --- for me music more than TV/movies. I learned a whole lot of Portuguese that way.

Here too, caution is advisable. Songs very often contain phrases and constructions that are uncommon or even inappropriate for communication in any other context. Students need to understand exactly what they are learning from songs or other media. This can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. But again, as a supplement they have their uses.

 

[Pogo]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

 

[Pogo]

.

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning.

That too --- for me music more than TV/movies. I learned a whole lot of Portuguese that way.

Here too, caution is advisable. Songs very often contain phrases and constructions that are uncommon or even inappropriate for communication in any other context. Students need to understand exactly what they are learning from songs or other media. This can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. But again, as a supplement they have their uses.

You can't very well learn a word yet have no idea what it means. You can learn what it sounds like, that's about it.
Popular song lyrics tend to also be delivered in that same vernacular, like the comic books. The point of all of which is representation of the real language used in common parlance -- as opposed to the dry analysis of technical instruction. The latter, for instance, will declare that the French negative operative is "ne... pas". In common speech though, the ne is almost never used, and putting it in identifies the speaker as a book learner, even awkward.

The point being that what one learns from casual arts will reflect more of the street-level reality.

 

[Unkotare]

You are correct; it's best to be immersed in it. That way your [sic] forced (shouldn't say 'forced' -- it sounds like work) to ingest the lingua franca from everything that happens around you all day. Way better than a daily exercise where you know you're doing an exercise rather than applying to your day....

Well, that's simplifying it a bit too much. Depending on one's goals and circumstances CALP is as important as BICS, but your statement seems to value the latter at the expense of the former.

Not meant to be a value judgment between the two but rather a personal observation on 'what works' to address the poster's comment on learning -- particularly initial learning. I used both to learn French but being immersed in it (i.e. living in France, and more to the point shifting into that mind mode of heightened sensual awareness that necessarily comes with being a traveller/foreigner) taught me way many times more of practical value than any other method.

It left some holes in the finer points of, say, grammar, but when I came out of there I could communicate with anybody, which was certainly not the case going in despite all the dry left-brained prep that preceded it.

The problem (sometimes) is that for younger students who may have long-term academic goals, proficiency in BICS can sometimes develop into a hindrance to greater proficiency in CALP.

 

[Unkotare]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

 

[Pogo]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

The language is "geared toward children" in the sense of being simple enough for one of that age to comprehend, which is also a good match for the beginning or rudimentary learner.

But the content is not based on children. It's designed to prepare them for the greater adult world.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to discredit an effective learning tool.

 

[Unkotare]

.

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning.

That too --- for me music more than TV/movies. I learned a whole lot of Portuguese that way.

Here too, caution is advisable. Songs very often contain phrases and constructions that are uncommon or even inappropriate for communication in any other context. Students need to understand exactly what they are learning from songs or other media. This can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. But again, as a supplement they have their uses.

You can't very well learn a word yet have no idea what it means. You can learn what it sounds like, that's about it.
Popular song lyrics tend to also be delivered in that same vernacular, like the comic books. The point of all of which is representation of the real language used in common parlance -- as opposed to the dry analysis of technical instruction. The latter, for instance, will declare that the French negative operative is "ne... pas". In common speech though, the ne is almost never used, and putting it in identifies the speaker as a book learner, even awkward.

The point being that what one learns from casual arts will reflect more of the street-level reality.

How often do you talk like the lyrics of popular music?

 

[Pogo]

.

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning.

That too --- for me music more than TV/movies. I learned a whole lot of Portuguese that way.

Here too, caution is advisable. Songs very often contain phrases and constructions that are uncommon or even inappropriate for communication in any other context. Students need to understand exactly what they are learning from songs or other media. This can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. But again, as a supplement they have their uses.

You can't very well learn a word yet have no idea what it means. You can learn what it sounds like, that's about it.
Popular song lyrics tend to also be delivered in that same vernacular, like the comic books. The point of all of which is representation of the real language used in common parlance -- as opposed to the dry analysis of technical instruction. The latter, for instance, will declare that the French negative operative is "ne... pas". In common speech though, the ne is almost never used, and putting it in identifies the speaker as a book learner, even awkward.

The point being that what one learns from casual arts will reflect more of the street-level reality.

How often do you talk like the lyrics of popular music?

Rarely if ever. But how often do you actually use "la plume de ma tante" in actual conversation?
Same thing. See the forest, not the tree.

 

[Unkotare]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

The language is "geared toward children" in the sense of being simple enough for one of that age to comprehend, which is also a good match for the beginning or rudimentary learner.

But the content is not based on children. It's designed to prepare them for the greater adult world.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to discredit an effective learning tool.

The language in comic books like Donald Duck is not merely simplified, it is childish. Children do not just communicate like "simple" adults, they use different words, phrases, and syntax than most adults in most circumstances. Adults should not learn to communicate like children. Doing so can create barriers to more complete acquisition later. Again, such things can be used as a supplement if they are carefully considered for what they are.

 

[Unkotare]

Rarely if ever. But how often do you actually use "la plume de ma tante" in actual conversation?
Same thing.

It's really not the same thing.

 

[Pogo]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

The language is "geared toward children" in the sense of being simple enough for one of that age to comprehend, which is also a good match for the beginning or rudimentary learner.

But the content is not based on children. It's designed to prepare them for the greater adult world.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to discredit an effective learning tool.

The language in comic books like Donald Duck is not merely simplified, it is childish. Children do not just communicate like "simple" adults, they use different words, phrases, and syntax than most adults in most circumstances. Adults should not learn to communicate like children. Doing so can create barriers to more complete acquisition later. Again, such things can be used as a supplement if they are carefully considered for what they are.

If that were true it wouldn't be a useful tool, now would it?
Once again, the scenaria therein are adult scenaria --- we're not talking "Gerry Giraffe takes a walk" here. Not even close. I understand you're desperate to get your contrarian on but you're really scraping. Something like you're imagining would have been entirely useless. It has no bearing on what I'm describing and no relationship thereto.

 

[Darkwind]

I believe that until the vast majority of students who leave our mandatory education agency can speak and write English with proficiency, no other language should be taught.

Let the parents teach root languages if they are from another country, or they can learn additional languages in the higher-education system.

There are far too many children now who cannot communicate in English (written or spoken) when they are socially promoted.

 

[Unkotare]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

The language is "geared toward children" in the sense of being simple enough for one of that age to comprehend, which is also a good match for the beginning or rudimentary learner.

But the content is not based on children. It's designed to prepare them for the greater adult world.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to discredit an effective learning tool.

The language in comic books like Donald Duck is not merely simplified, it is childish. Children do not just communicate like "simple" adults, they use different words, phrases, and syntax than most adults in most circumstances. Adults should not learn to communicate like children. Doing so can create barriers to more complete acquisition later. Again, such things can be used as a supplement if they are carefully considered for what they are.

If that were true it wouldn't be a useful tool, now would it?...

Sure it would. Every tool needs to be understood and used carefully to be effective rather than harmful.

 

[Pogo]

Failing that, one little trick I learned when I lived in France and wanted to brush up on German -- Donald Duck comic books. I happened to work as an au pair and the kids in the house (with a German mother) had them around. You get everyday people doing everyday things in the common vernacular, and if you're not sure of the text, the visuals tell you what's going on very easily...

Many people offer such advice, but you want to be careful with that. Adults learning a second language should not be learning how to communicate like children. Adults are not children, even in a second language. If that is kept in mind, such things can be a useful supplement at an early stage of acquisition.

It's [sic] doesn't demonstrate "communicating like children" -- it demonstrates simple everyday situations on a level understandable by children. If you look into such a comic book (I was not in the habit of doing so) the actual situations depicted in them are simply normal everyday circumstances. Their underlying purpose, if they have one, is to acclimate children to the greater world. The characters, though they may be anthropomorphized [sic] ducks, are not venturing into child situations but adult ones.

It won't give the reader a background to lecture on philosophy at the Sorbonne but it will enlighten him/her to what that guy at the bus stop just said.

The language in comic books is geared toward children, which may be fine if the learner is aware of it and able to compartmentalize accordingly.

The language is "geared toward children" in the sense of being simple enough for one of that age to comprehend, which is also a good match for the beginning or rudimentary learner.

But the content is not based on children. It's designed to prepare them for the greater adult world.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to discredit an effective learning tool.

The language in comic books like Donald Duck is not merely simplified, it is childish. Children do not just communicate like "simple" adults, they use different words, phrases, and syntax than most adults in most circumstances. Adults should not learn to communicate like children. Doing so can create barriers to more complete acquisition later. Again, such things can be used as a supplement if they are carefully considered for what they are.

If that were true it wouldn't be a useful tool, now would it?...

Sure it would. Every tool needs to be understood and used carefully to be effective rather than harmful.

Then your hangup apparently lies in the compulsion to micromanage others as if they have no cognitive abilities of their own. I suspect people are not as stupid as you seem to think from your tree perch.

 

[Unkotare]

I believe that until the vast majority of students who leave our mandatory education agency can speak and write English with proficiency, no other language should be taught....

Do you consider them to be mutually exclusive?