Maybe It's Me, But ......

[Gunny]

The bottom line is that there is a difference between enlisted, warrant and commissioned personnel. They each have their role and 99.9% serve with honor and in a professional manner. There are a few who do not.

Historically, there was a time when "Sarge" was an acceptable form of address for enlisted noncommissioned officers. I know that it used to be ok to call a First Sergeant "Top" or "First Shirt"... it is no longer acceptable. Officers were and are always addressed as "Sir" or by their rank.

I suspect it began to change in the late 70's when (what I thought was a PC misguieded effort) junior enlisted became offended at some of the names NCOs used to refer to them (like "maggot" "dirtbag" and worse). Gradually, the rule was that NCOs MUST address junior enlisted by their name and rank ONLY. With that, terms like "Sarge" also went out the window.

Just for clarification: there are two ranks that are referred to as Sergeant Major. Both are E-9 paygrades. The first is Sergeant Major and refers to an E-9 who is a member of the commander's staff. This soldier generally works in the command's operation center and performs a variety of tasks, depending on the commanders desires. These individuals usually (though not always) answer to the S-3 or some other senior officer on the commander's staff.

The second is Command Sergeant Major. This individual is the senior enlisted person in the command and answers ONLY to the commander. When I say commander, it means an officer who is charge of a unit at battalion level or higher (battalion, brigade/regiment, division, and corps) or of a special unit authorized such a position. The CSM's job/tasks are defined by the commander but usually include responsibility for ensuring that the commander's policy is enforced, that the enlisted are being trained properly, and a host of other things. Because a CSM answers ONLY to one person he/she has very special responsibility and very special authority.

NOt every soldier attains the rank of Sergeant Major or CSM. While there are requirements for time in service, etc, the selection process is very stringent and the approval process for promotion to either rank is very lengthy, detailed and arduous. You can bet that a SM or CSM has been scrutinized in every way by everyone of any importance at the DoD and DA levels.

It's kinda sorta the same in the Corps. A SgtMaj is a Command SgtMaj, period, pretty much as you outlined above. He is the senior enlisted representative for and to the CO.

An E-9 who remains in his MOS as opposed to being part of the command structure is a Master Gunnery Sergeant. For E-8 the ranks are 1st Sergeant and MSgt. The former being on the command staff at the company level while the latter fills a billet based on his MOS and rank.

While choices have been in the past to support the needs of the Corps, in general, Marines are allowed to choose which path they wish to take (remaining in their MOS vs holding command billets).

At teh time I retired (2000) it was still acceptable to call a MSgt and or MGySgt "Top" IF he or she had no problem with it. It was never acceptable (during my 20 years anyway) to address either the 1stSgt or SgtMaj as "Top."

Promotion process for the Corps is the same as you mentioned. By the time one reaches E-8-9 level, the rank pyramid is pretty much at the top, and the Corps replaces one for one. Meaning, somebody has to go home for anyone to move up. Not only is one's record put through the ringer, but the Coprs is a small enough entity that politics also come into play because odds are good at the E-9 level one will know at least one or two people sitting on their promotion board.

 

[trobinett]

Thanks to both, CSM, and GunnyL for taking the time to address that subject.

I can only hope, that there are many more like you still in the services.

THANK YOU.

 

[nt250]

Historically, there was a time when "Sarge" was an acceptable form of address for enlisted noncommissioned officers. I know that it used to be ok to call a First Sergeant "Top" or "First Shirt"... it is no longer acceptable. Officers were and are always addressed as "Sir" or by their rank.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that.

Now I have a HUGE problem. I saw a movie once where one of the characters called a sergeant "Sir" and the sergeant snapped back "Don't call me Sir! I WORK for a living!"

Probably An Officer and a Gentlemen. But it's drving me nuts now. I'm going to have to go look it up.

 

[Gunny]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that.

Now I have a HUGE problem. I saw a movie once where one of the characters called a sergeant "Sir" and the sergeant snapped back "Don't call me Sir! I WORK for a living!"

Probably An Officer and a Gentlemen. But it's drving me nuts now. I'm going to have to go look it up.

Short, easy response:

Officers are addressed by their rank, or "sir." Enlisted personnel are not. When junior enlisted personnel address higher ranking enlisted personnel as "sir," it is time to don the mask of mock indignation that someone DARED compare the enlisted person to an officer. The standard response being:

"Don't call me "sir: ..... I work for a living."

It's more of a pretend insult than anything else, and one must comply with the tradition of the game.

And I am quite sure Gunnery Sergeant Foley in "An Officer and Gentleman" probably stated such. It more than likely gets the same treatment from Gunnry Sergeant Hartman in "Full Metal Jacket."

 

[Gunny]

BTW and as an aside, R Lee Ermey's portrayal of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman was carbon-copy, dead-on Marine Corps Drill Instructor. Ermey had been a Hat back in the day. For those who wonder "what Marine boot camp is really like."

My Drill instructors were pretty-much like him, and in turn, I stole half his gimmicks when I was a Drill Instructor. It's like being half-standup comedian half-homicidal maniac. What the privates and public in general don't realize is it IS an act.

 

[nt250]

BTW and as an aside, R Lee Ermey's portrayal of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman was carbon-copy, dead-on Marine Corps Drill Instructor. Ermey had been a Hat back in the day. For those who wonder "what Marine boot camp is really like."

My Drill instructors were pretty-much like him, and in turn, I stole half his gimmicks when I was a Drill Instructor. It's like being half-standup comedian half-homicidal maniac. What the privates and public in general don't realize is it IS an act.

I finally found it. It was from Stripes.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0083131/quotes
Memorable Quotes from
Stripes (1981)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sergeant Hulka: You don't say "sir" to me, I'm a sergeant, I work for a living.
Soldiers: Yes, sergeant!
Sergeant Hulka: I didn't hear you!
Soldiers: YES, SERGEANT!
Sergeant Hulka: *That's* what I wanna hear.
John Winger: Do you think this guy's over-doing it a bit?

In Full Metal Jacket, not only do the marine recruits call him "Sir" they have to begin and end every sentence with it.

In An Officer and A Gentleman, at the end when the Lou Gossett character is handing out whatever it is he's giving them, he corrects one who calls him "sir". He has to call them "Sir" now.

I just love that movie. But I'm a chick and you can't get anymore chick flick than An officer and A Gentleman.

 

[Gunny]

I finally found it. It was from Stripes.






In Full Metal Jacket, not only do the marine recruits call him "Sir" they have to begin and end every sentence with it.

In An Officer and A Gentleman, at the end when the Lou Gossett character is handing out whatever it is he's giving them, he corrects one who calls him "sir". He has to call them "Sir" now.

I just love that movie. But I'm a chick and you can't get anymore chick flick than An officer and A Gentleman.

Ah .... you just have to pick out the ONE exception to the rule! LOL. Marine recruits are indeed required to begin and end every sentence with "sir." The are also required to speak in the third person. For example, if you wished to address a Drill Instructor, with little deviation, the following verbal ritual must be adhered to:

"Sir, Recruit Schmuckatelli requests permission to speak to Drill Instructor Sergeant So-n-So." ANY and all conversation follows that.

"An Officer and a Gentleman" was a "chick flick?" I guess in a way it was. I probably just blocked that portion of the movie out.

 

[nt250]

Ah .... you just have to pick out the ONE exception to the rule! LOL. Marine recruits are indeed required to begin and end every sentence with "sir." The are also required to speak in the third person. For example, if you wished to address a Drill Instructor, with little deviation, the following verbal ritual must be adhered to:

"Sir, Recruit Schmuckatelli requests permission to speak to Drill Instructor Sergeant So-n-So." ANY and all conversation follows that.

"An Officer and a Gentleman" was a "chick flick?" I guess in a way it was. I probably just blocked that portion of the movie out.

Don't get me started on Stanley Kubrick. I don't want to start a war. But, if you forget what happens to Hartman in the movie his quotes are hysterically funny.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0093058/quotes

I didn't watch the whole movie. I turned it off.

And yes, An Officer and A Gentleman is THE quintessential chick flick.

When Mayo comes to the paper bag factory at the end and picks up Paula and carriers her out into the sun?

You can't get anymore chick flick than that!

 

[Gunny]

Don't get me started on Stanley Kubrick. I don't want to start a war. But, if you forget what happens to Hartman in the movie his quotes are hysterically funny.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0093058/quotes

I didn't watch the whole movie. I turned it off.

And yes, An Officer and A Gentleman is THE quintessential chick flick.

When Mayo comes to the paper bag factory at the end and picks up Paula and carriers her out into the sun?

You can't get anymore chick flick than that!

See ... THAT's what's wrong with the world. You remember a two minute sub-plot as "the" movie.

I saw a movie about a completely self-absorbed person who had to learn the hard way that he could not get where he was going on his own, and the best part of the flick was when Mayo and Foley got it on in the hangar. I've rarely seen fights in the movies protrayed as realistically as theirs.

That mushy crap was just filler and covering the obligatory Hollywood love interest angle and something viewers were forced to endure to see the good parts.

The movie "Full Metal Jacket" is a paradox unto itself. The first half was as real as Marine boot camp gets without being there. The second half was pure Hollywood crapola centering around the real Battle of Hue during Tet 68.

Gunny Hartman basically HAD to go. While the portrayal of Marine boot camp and Drill Instructors was very realistic, he was everything wrong with a Drill Instructor, and they played the roles incorrectly.

Hartman was the Senior Drill Instructor. The SDI is "daddy." He is who recruits are supposed to trust to go to with a problem, and he is the one that always hands out the "rewards," whatever they may be.

The "Heavy" is the Drill Instructor that recruits think is Satan and is in their butts acting half-insane and just generally making eveyone's life miserable (with a purpose, I might add). Thrashing recruits to no purpose is sadistic and illegal.

At any rate, if you look at the two roles, you can see how they are a delicate balance toward how a recruit can see things. With a SDI, a recruit knows that there is always a lifeline to sanity and salvation from the Heavy, and the roles need to be separate.

Hartman was both the SDI, the "Heavy," and an over the top, sadistic SOB. He crossed the line as far as the SOP (basically the recruit training "Bible") goes. So, any recruit suffering him, had no hope of rescue. "Private Pyle" was the manifestation of what his brutal training methods produced, and in the end it destroyed him.

 

[nt250]

See ... THAT's what's wrong with the world. You remember a two minute sub-plot as "the" movie.

I saw a movie about a completely self-absorbed person who had to learn the hard way that he could not get where he was going on his own, and the best part of the flick was when Mayo and Foley got it on in the hangar. I've rarely seen fights in the movies protrayed as realistically as theirs.

That mushy crap was just filler and covering the obligatory Hollywood love interest angle and something viewers were forced to endure to see the good parts.

The movie "Full Metal Jacket" is a paradox unto itself. The first half was as real as Marine boot camp gets without being there. The second half was pure Hollywood crapola centering around the real Battle of Hue during Tet 68.

Gunny Hartman basically HAD to go. While the portrayal of Marine boot camp and Drill Instructors was very realistic, he was everything wrong with a Drill Instructor, and they played the roles incorrectly.

Hartman was the Senior Drill Instructor. The SDI is "daddy." He is who recruits are supposed to trust to go to with a problem, and he is the one that always hands out the "rewards," whatever they may be.

The "Heavy" is the Drill Instructor that recruits think is Satan and is in their butts acting half-insane and just generally making eveyone's life miserable (with a purpose, I might add). Thrashing recruits to no purpose is sadistic and illegal.

At any rate, if you look at the two roles, you can see how they are a delicate balance toward how a recruit can see things. With a SDI, a recruit knows that there is always a lifeline to sanity and salvation from the Heavy, and the roles need to be separate.

Hartman was both the SDI, the "Heavy," and an over the top, sadistic SOB. He crossed the line as far as the SOP (basically the recruit training "Bible") goes. So, any recruit suffering him, had no hope of rescue. "Private Pyle" was the manifestation of what his brutal training methods produced, and in the end it destroyed him.

Two minute sub-plot? The title of the movie is An Officer and A Gentleman and in the end, Zack became both. What you refer to as "mushy stuff" is the heart of the movie.

Such is the difference between girls and boys, I guess.

I don't want to get into Full Metal Jacket. I have no frame of reference for it and I just didn't like it. I thought it was just one more anti-war, anti-American, anti-Vietnam screed and I didn't watch it after that scene in the bathroom.

 

[Gunny]

Two minute sub-plot? The title of the movie is An Officer and A Gentleman and in the end, Zack became both. What you refer to as "mushy stuff" is the heart of the movie.

Such is the difference between girls and boys, I guess.

I don't want to get into Full Metal Jacket. I have no frame of reference for it and I just didn't like it. I thought it was just one more anti-war, anti-American, anti-Vietnam screed and I didn't watch it after that scene in the bathroom.

What I call subplot is the subplot, LOL. An officer and a gentleman is a military term from the days of yore, used to refer to any commissioned officer in the US armed forces. The movie was about becomming one, not dating the local debs. Unless the movie is a straight-up romance beginning to end, the obligatory love interest is ALWAYS a subplot to the movie.

However, I am QUITE sure most chicks would agree with you and most guys especialyl military guys would agree with me.

I find it rather interesting that see "Full Metal Jacket" as antiwar and anti-American or even anti-Vietnam. I really didn't get that from it.

 

[archangel]

Two minute sub-plot? The title of the movie is An Officer and A Gentleman and in the end, Zack became both. What you refer to as "mushy stuff" is the heart of the movie.

Such is the difference between girls and boys, I guess.

I don't want to get into Full Metal Jacket. I have no frame of reference for it and I just didn't like it. I thought it was just one more anti-war, anti-American, anti-Vietnam screed and I didn't watch it after that scene in the bathroom.

Recommended movies to see from a Vietnam era vet..."We were soldiers" and "Hamburger Hill" they captured the true flavor of VN...imo

 

[Gunny]

Well, I HAD to do it. Full Metal Jacket is in the DVD player and running. I'm cracking up at the haircut scene.

 

[Gunny]

Recommended movies to see from a Vietnam era vet..."We were soldiers" and "Hamburger Hill" they captured the true flavor of VN...imo

We Were Soldiers was good. "Hamburger Hill" was anti-war propaganda IMO.

 

[Annie]

Well, I HAD to do it. Full Metal Jacket is in the DVD player and running. I'm cracking up at the haircut scene.

I liked it. Didn't see it taking sides, though very, very violent. Then again, I'd assume that war is.

 

[nt250]

What I call subplot is the subplot, LOL. An officer and a gentleman is a military term from the days of yore, used to refer to any commissioned officer in the US armed forces. The movie was about becomming one, not dating the local debs. Unless the movie is a straight-up romance beginning to end, the obligatory love interest is ALWAYS a subplot to the movie.

However, I am QUITE sure most chicks would agree with you and most guys especialyl military guys would agree with me.

I find it rather interesting that see "Full Metal Jacket" as antiwar and anti-American or even anti-Vietnam. I really didn't get that from it.

When he showed up at the end, in his formal uniform? Oh man! He did the right thing, and he looked great doing it! That was a really great date movie. Well, except for the sex scenes, that was kind of awkward.

I can't really argue about any Stanley Kubrick movie. He's revered to the point that nobody can criticize anything he ever did. But I really didn't like Full Metal Jacket, and reading the some of the quotes from the parts I didn't see seem to make it anti-American. But I only watched it up until the bathroom scene so I can't say.

I'll watch the whole thing next time I come across it. I happened to catch it during a time I was having a major flame war over The Shining, so I probably didn't give it a chance.

 

[Gunny]

When he showed up at the end, in his formal uniform? Oh man! He did the right thing, and he looked great doing it! That was a really great date movie. Well, except for the sex scenes, that was kind of awkward.

Marine Corps Dress Blues are much sharper.

I can't really argue about any Stanley Kubrick movie. He's revered to the point that nobody can criticize anything he ever did. But I really didn't like Full Metal Jacket, and reading the some of the quotes from the parts I didn't see seem to make it anti-American. But I only watched it up until the bathroom scene so I can't say.

I'll watch the whole thing next time I come across it. I happened to catch it during a time I was having a major flame war over The Shining, so I probably didn't give it a chance.

I never really consider that Kubrick was the director. His movies are usually over the top violent, as Kathianne mentioned. As far as his political motivations, I really have no idea.

The bathroom scene is the end of the boot camp half of the movie. They cut to Vietnam right after. IMO, the movie centers more around characterizations than politics.

 

[archangel]

We Were Soldiers was good. "Hamburger Hill" was anti-war propaganda IMO.

relive the 'combat' scenes and interaction amongst the troops..it did happen...race issues were addressed on a realistic value...as was the combat of the era...it did not cross the line as it did occur and was addressed appropriately...fair and balanced...albeit I was there and can say it did happen this way...sorry Gunny ask your Dad!

 

[Annie]

relive the 'combat' scenes and interaction amongst the troops..it did happen...race issues were addressed on a realistic value...as was the combat of the era...it did not cross the line as it did occur and was addressed appropriately...fair and balanced...albeit I was there and can say it did happen this way...sorry Gunny ask your Dad!

End of story. Arch says so!

 

[nt250]

I never really consider that Kubrick was the director. His movies are usually over the top violent, as Kathianne mentioned. As far as his political motivations, I really have no idea.

The bathroom scene is the end of the boot camp half of the movie. They cut to Vietnam right after. IMO, the movie centers more around characterizations than politics.

I don't know. I think showing a marine killing his drill sargeant has politics written all over it.

Did that ever happen in real life?


Made me sick to my stomach. That's all I can say.