CDZ MATH: How the GOP proposed tax bill does not help middle class Americans

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Xelor, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Unkotare
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    Unkotare Diamond Member

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    There is absolutely NO tax reform that leftists wouldn't shriek and wail about - no matter how much it cut taxes for the middle class - unless if was primarily a punishment on the wealthy. There is NO way ANY reform would not trigger the democrat talking points (tax cuts for fat cats! an increase on middle class taxes! punishing the poor! etc.) if it also did anything for the wealthy and/or corporations. Every comment from the left about this or any other tax reform proposal was prepared long in advance regardless of what any such reform might include. They know that all they have to do is repeat themselves endlessly and leave the rest to their whores in the media.
     
  2. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I provided a link that shows the tax brackets.

    Also, I think you missed this very important group of words in the early portion of the OP:

    You're right. My mistake. TY for pointing it out that I understated the extent to which the GOP/Trump plan is worse than I'd initially stated.

    That said, paying $1,413 instead of my mistakenly presented $1,177 is not better for the single parent with a child individual(s) who have taxable incomes of zero to $9325 in taxable income inasmuch as those individuals currently would pay, at most, just over $900 in federal income taxes. Accordingly, rather than being "just shy of a 20% increase" in a low income single parent's federal income tax liability, it's a more than 20% increase in it, a 35% increase as a matter of fact (1 - (932/1413)). I'm sure that's comforting to such individuals than is the picture I presented.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  3. Toddsterpatriot
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    Toddsterpatriot Platinum Member

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    upload_2017-11-2_20-39-49.png
     
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  4. Ricky LIbtardo
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    Ricky LIbtardo Diamond Member

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    I just posted the corrections in my previous post and with the new tax proposals there's no tax on income after deduction on the first $12,000. So the example you proposed pays NOTHING under the new tax plan for a $934 savings.

    Facts are facts.
     
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  5. Indeependent
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    Indeependent Gold Member

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    The Republican meme is Trickle Down.
    "The Middle Class doesn't create jobs".
    Give the off-shorers the tax breaks and well...yawn.
     
  6. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    Excuse me? Have you lost your mind? All income after reducing AGI by whatever deductions to which one is eligible is taxable income, whereafter tax credits are applied to one's "provisional" tax liability to directly reduce the tax liability, that is the sum one must remit to the federal government.

    Basic federal income tax calculation process:
    Gross income
    Less: pre-adjusted-gross-income deductions
    Adjusted gross income (AGI)
    Less: Itemized or standard deduction
    Provisional taxable income (on which one's provisional tax liability is calculated)
    Times: tax rate
    Provisional tax liability
    Less: tax credits
    Gross tax liability
    Less: tax payments made during the year
    Net (remaining) tax liability (this is the amount of the check one must submit with one's return)​
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  7. deanrd
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    deanrd Gold Member

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    OK, you posted a table.

    Now what?
     
  8. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I believe he posted it in refutation of the other member's assertion that there currently is no 10% tax bracket.
    He may also have posted it to show that I didn't show the "up to and after" aspect of tax liability calculation. In my "100K" example, I didn't, and I didn't for simplicity's sake.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  9. Toddsterpatriot
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    Toddsterpatriot Platinum Member

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    Now everyone knows there is a 10% bracket.
     
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  10. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    1. I haven't written about "any" tax change proposal. I've written about specific changes the GOP/Trump have proposed and that the GOP/Trump have touted as being better for middle class Americans. I've shown the actual tax impact of several of the provisions in that proposal to low and middle income Americans.

      If the GOP/Trump come up with a different proposal, I will perform the same detail-level analysis of it so that I'll understand what impact it will have on low and middle income Americans. I don't do the analysis for my own situation. I don't because I have a financial advisor who does that and provides me with detailed analyses similar to that I've shared above, though what I get from him is vastly more detailed and more complicated.

      The reason I bother to perform some basic analysis of the impact on people in low and middle income brackets is because I prefer to understand the full impact of such things and I know damn well that I'm not going to get a full story from any news organization. You see, my ethical system calls me to realize that such things as national policy, in this case tax policy, its impacts and whether or not any given policy (set thereof) is good or not is a function of more than just whether it's good for me, or even bad for me if it's bad in a minor way.
    2. Do you have something to say that accurately and quantitatively contravenes the analysis I shared in the OP? If so, I'd like to see the quantitative analysis to that effect that you've got to share.

      Did I make errors in my presentation? I did, but even with those errors, upon correcting them, one finds that the Trump plan still causes middle and low income earners to pay notably more tax.
      • FWIW, I misread the tax rate chart and correlated the $71K in taxable income to a current rate of 15%, but it should have been 25%. That mistake on my part lowers the difference between the Trump plan and the current tax code to just over $4,000 rather than $11,000. Be that as it may, that's still $4K more that $100K taxable income earner will have to pay. I submit that to people in that income range, $4K is a material sum of money.
    3. While my analysis is imperfect on a couple calculation points, it's spot on in its theme: the Trump tax plan does not help middle class Americans or low income Americans. Low income people will pay more and so will middle income people, and I bid you to find a middle or low income taxpayer who thinks their having to pay more federal income taxes is helpful to them.

      Contrast that with the email I got today from my financial manager wherein I learned that the Trump/GOP plan, based on what's known right now, will lower my taxes by more than $200K. (I knew the GOP plan would be "good" for me, but I didn't expect it'd be that good. and yet it's not going to alter my lifestyle. That's crazy! That's about how much my oldest son earns from his job! It's more than most people make at all.) There is nothing ethically right about a set of tax provisions that do that while also increasing the taxes far less well-off folks pay. (Click here to get a sense of how many Americans are going to see their taxes markedly decrease by a very handsome sum. Relative to the total population, it's not many people.) I am in no way ashamed or proud of being comfortable -- that is what it is -- but I don't need to be made "more comfortable" by dint of federal income tax provisions and at the expense of people who are nowhere near as comfortable as I.

    4. Does it gall me to write a quarterly check, made payable to Uncle Sam, for a more than a hundred grand? It sure does. Every single time. Will you find me gleefully begging to pay more in taxes? No. Nobody wants to pay more; however, the fact remains that some people can and suffer no change in their lifestyles. If thus situated people are bid to pay more so that less advantageously placed folks can pay less, the least the former group's members can do, IMO, is refrain from "woe is me," because nothing could be farther from the truth. And let's not pretend that well-off folks don't get something in return for paying more in taxes than do other people. The reality is that well-off folks get a regressive tax code that allows them to pay, after deductions, at, near and sometimes less than the effective tax rate realized by taxpayers who earn far, far less.
     
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